Ok, I hope someone can help. I have 2 counseling degrees and tend to be very black and white in my thinking.No gray areas. I have tried everything I can think of to get over this.
# 1 Days before our wedding I found out that my H was engaged to his daughters mother 4 years ago. Not a long engagement but they did see a pastor ect... I was very hurt that he never told me and felt like I was second best... With the help of a dear friend, I was able to realize that he may really have not wanted to open that can of worms in fear of hurting me. ( My H is perfect as far as everything else goes) My H said he didn't want to hurt me and I knew their relationship was horrible for him. We still have many problems with his daughters mother- which we tackle together.
# 2 Two months later while unpacking yet another box I found a box of his stuff in the basement. Wondering if it was a box I had overlooked, I opened it. Inside were a few personal "toys" and some adult videos. I was upset but rationalized that he was single and not dating for 3 years before he met me. I put it back and layed a piece of paper against it so that if it was opened I would notice. I really thought he wasn't using any of it. I knew he would be very embarrassed so I never said anything. I went to visit my parents overnight ( they live 3 hours away) a week later. When I came home I checked the box and it had been opened. I was embarassed to say any thing just in case the paper had fell by itself. so I did the whole thing again. And the paper was missing again. I confronted him and he was embarrassed of course. he said it was something he just did a few times in the last year. When I wasn't home. It wasn't a reflection of our relationship. He wanted to throw it away and I told him to keep it and we could use it together only. He swore to always tell me the truth (just like he did about the engagement). I really tried to forgive and I went out of my way to give him the intimacy that he wanted. I felt things were getting better.
# 3 A month ago, his friend borrowed his truck and left 3 adult magazines under the seat. ( this is true) My H told me that they were there ( he was being honest like he promised) and I assumed he threw them away given the nature of our last argument. A few weeks later I used the truck and when I moved the seat up, what did I find? The magazines- and they were opened!
I confronted him discussed the issue and asked for a divorce. He swears he only looked at them once and that night he threw everything he had away.
So, what now? 3 strikes- It may seem petty, but I am devestated. I cant be intimate because all I think of is the "stuff" he had and if in another month he will forget his promise again for something he desires. I feel like he has cheated even though there is no other woman. I have so much resentment and anger that I can't seem to let go of.
He is doing everything he can to make things better but I don't feel close to him anymore. I know he loves me very much and is perfect in every other way. I have a hard time forgiving people in general-(i'm a Virgo) and this is so personal. I have put him through hours of discussing his need for this type of material and lack of respect for my feelings. We have talked and talked ( NOT argued) about our relationship and trust. He honestly feels horrible. I can see it in his eyes.
Is this just a slip? Am I overreacting because of past events? I really don't want a divorce because he is the perfect husband and father to our children. We are both 28 and this is the ONLY thing we have ever had an issue with.
Any suggestions?<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: zoey ]</p>

zoey,<p>From reading your post, I believe that you have a problem with him not being honest with you more then anything else. That is a large part of what bothers people about infidelity. It is the tip of the iceburg and a long slippery path. You are right to be concerned.<p>My suggestion is that you start by reading the books "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters". Though you H has not really cheated on you, as you indicate, I also suggest that you read the book Surviving an Affair. There are things in these books that, if you and your H will embrace them, will put your marriage back on track before any futher damage is done. In particular I'd suggest that you look at the Emotional Needs and personal history questionaire. One of the basic concepts of MB is radical honesty. <p>Your H needs to realize that a lie, even when told to protect the spouse or one's self is still nothing more then a lie. It only severs to prove that the person is a lier. It does not protect anyone.

I personally would recommend that you find some readings on sex addictions. I know that a family member of mine had a problem like this with her H, and it ended up from just magazines...videos...to adult bars...to affairs!! It is an addiction porn is...thre are a lot of sites that will hep you both understand and how to get the right help.<p>i know that my sis...she felt violated with just the porn situation. He had a very big problem with performing correctly...he spent more time with porn than with her. She felt it was as bad as another woman?? i dont know about that...but she refuses to talk about it now.<p>good luck,
mercy

zoey,<p>My situation is very close to yours in that my new H hid his past sexual relationships from me and had a "private" sexual fantasy life. The big issue with me was the DISHONESTY involved. I was not real concerned with magazines and pictures because they are not a threat and could never be a deal breaker for me. It was the related dishonesty that almost ended our marriage.<p>I am also a black and white thinker and I think that I created an atmosphere where my H did not feel FREE to be open and honest with me about certain things, such as sexual history. Radical honesty does not come naturally to some people like it does to me so he has had to LEARN this. I have stayed with him and our marriage has flourished but it took effort on BOTH our parts. I had to relax a little bit in my rigid opinions and he had to learn to be SCRUPULOUSLY honest, which he has.<p>Since this happened he has LOST ALL INTEREST in the sexual fantasies, magazines and pictures. Once he no longer had to HIDE this stuff from me, it lost all of it's appeal.<p>So please don't throw this marriage away over this. No marriage is ever perfect and I know how you damn Virgoes are. You guys can milk a minor slight for years! [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] This can be repaired and you can learn to forgive accept.

zoey,<p>I think that perhaps you have put your H into a no win situation and then act surprised when he lies about being in the situation.<p>Personally, as a male, I have a hard time worrying too much about the porn issue if it is constrained to a few occasions. Your suggestion that you both look at it was very good.<p>Where I see the problem, is that he feels (rightly or wrongly) that you will divorce him for looking at the mags his friend left. He apparently feels it puts your marriage in jeapordy and apparently it does. So if he tells the truth he loses, if he lies he may not lose.<p>Frankly, I think your reasons for divorce are not very compelling. I do share your concern about honesty. However are you willing to accept your H if he is honest. If he came to you and said: "Honey, I like to occasionally like to look at Playboy, whatever, and I plan to continue. It is not a substitute for you but something that focuses me on you." Would you divorce him? He is being honest.<p>You see you can elevate this issue to me or porn. You have in fact done that. But you have no evidence that it has hurt your relationship or his attention to you and the family. He has apparently "looked" at a friends Mags. He isn't hanging at the strip joints, sleazy movie houses, and spending time and money on these pursuits instead of you and the family.<p>Mercy, says yeah, but it could elevate to that. Yup, it could I suppose. But it is also true he could get killed in a car accident and that would really take him away from you. Are you going to divorce because he is at risk?<p>You see once you handled this the correct way, after playing games with him. Frankly, when you found the box you should have talked with him about what was in it right then. Not do the paper on top nonsense. You were in fact playing games with your H and while not lying to him you were not very honest either.<p>zoey, you claim your H is a very good husband and father in every other way, except that he apparently won't let you make him PERFECT. Dear Lady, none of us guys are perfect and many are a lot less perfect than your H seems to be. <p>So my recommendation is try some honesty on yourself. If you cannot live with your H's likes and dislikes, then tell him. But, if you put him in a corner like you have and then play interesting testing games with him when you know the answer, then your marriage has little chance whether the issue is porn, or just life styles.<p>You cannot control your H and you cannot "CHANGE" him into mister perfect. He may change but only if he wants to and it is to his benefit. If you feel that I am wrong then you should do him a favor and leave.<p>Frankly, I would suggest an honest talk with your H about YOUR issues with porn (however, that is defined for you) and HIS issues with porn. I will tell you that most men find the female form fun and even relaxing to look at. It doesn't mean they are going to run off and do anything. Often they just run home to their W's.<p>So think long and hard about this and where you are going to draw your lines. Then quit playing games with your H and put him in a situation where honesty is something that can be tolerated and accepted by you. <p>Hope something I have said is of use to you.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

Thank you for taking time to reply JL - please re-read my post and your reply- I need to clarify a few things here. I think you may be reading into my post a little differently than I had meant. The lines were very clearly drawn during our first discussion. My H is aware of my "issues with Porn" VERY aware. I think it is disgusting and it is taking away the intimacy and respect from our relationship. This is not an issue of casually looking at a few mags. I hear you saying that if he enjoys looking at porn and it makes him feel good he should be allowed that even if it hurts me and our relationship.(as long as he's not actually having sex with someone else or hanging out in sleezy places.) Hmmmmm.... So it's ok to look at sleezy stuff in you own home- after you promise your wife you won't- just not out and about in public? Have you read about joint agreement? I vistited this site for the first time today and I have come to realize the question is not how or why he did these things it is what now.

What I am asking/looking for is real ways to get back what we had. I'm looking for ways to cope and regain trust and intimacy w/my H from people who have lived through this or have insight that I don't. I didn't break down and spill the worst thing that has ever happened in my marriage online to millions so that I could be criticized. I am seeking real starting points so that we can be happy again. Thanks anyway

Hello zoey,<p>I think that coming to MB was a good decision. There is so much to learn here about our spouses and about ourselves.<p>In order to be of help to each other, we speak our minds openly. If people didn't present their opinions frankly, we wouldn't have a variety of ideas to consider. People do not intend to be disrespectful or to cut people down. We just try to give our honest take on situations presented by posters. No one intends to offend. Accept what makes sense to you and overlook what doesn't.<p>As to you question about "what now", especially since you say your H as a good man and a good H otherwise, I suggest that you print the information on the main site about honesty and also the emotional needs questionnaire. Do you think that your H will go over the information with you?<p>This situation may just be the opportunity for you and H to build a really strong base for the future years of your M.<p>Welcome to MB. Please keep posting. Best wishes,
Estes

Hi zoey. I wanted to reply to you and say that I am a female and I agree with what Just Learning said. I have been married almost 9 years and have so far been very happy with no problems. I believe alot of men enjoy looking at magazines here and there. It is not a sex addiction. Also if he uses toys alone when you are not there yet your sex life is still good then why is there a problem? If he is "good to himself" for lack of a better term in private he is actually not doing anything wrong. Lots of guys do it and it isn't a reflection on your sex life or on you. Why does it make you feel threatened? Yes he needs to be honest with you but like Just Learning said he feels like it's a no win situation. I used to be very adamamant also about naked magazines, until I realized it's not worth the headache. It doesn't hurt anyone and I was confident that he found me sexy also. So i let him get a subsription to Playboy. It became no big deal and when the sub. ran out he didn't bother to renew it. I didn't make it a do as I say thing and he didn't feel the need to press his independence...if that makes sense. Alos I don't agree that it turns into a sexual addiction for all men and they end up in affairs. I think controlling him in not allowing him these small things will make him pull away. Disgusting and degrading porn aside....it's normal for everyday guys to like seeing a woman's body naked. AS long as it's not all the time and an obsession that interferes with your relationship. Some may not agree with me, but that's how I think. [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by zoey:
<strong>
What I am asking/looking for is real ways to get back what we had. I'm looking for ways to cope and regain trust and intimacy w/my H from people who have lived through this or have insight that I don't. I didn't break down and spill the worst thing that has ever happened in my marriage online to millions so that I could be criticized. I am seeking real starting points so that we can be happy again. Thanks anyway</strong><hr></blockquote><p>zoey,<p>With all due respect, did you come here to get opinions from people who have been through this or did you come for a reaffirmation of your already existing opinion? Because it sure sounds like the latter. Don't ask for opinions if you are going to get snippy when you get exactly what you ask for. JustLearning gave you some very compelling and realistic advice and I wish you would take another look at it because I believe you are sorely in need of a reality check. <p>What many of us are trying to tell you is that your PREMISE is wrong here and that is where you need to start in order to get over this. You need to reevaluate your thinking and soften your stance. <p>The fact is that looking at porn is not the same as infidelity. It is outrageous to lump the two into the same category and simply serves to diminish the real damaging effects of infidelity. Exaggeration is not conducive to finding solutions. <p>Nor have you demonstrated here how his interest in porn has harmed your relationship. The only thing that I see harming your relationship is *YOUR* overreaction to it and your corresponding game playing. AND his dishonest manner of handling it. You can't blame him because *YOU* made a decision to overreact and cut off intimacy with him. <p>Granted, his dishonesty here has also caused problems and he was wrong to look at the porn after he agreed not to. He should have been up front initially and not made such an agreement. But I suspect he felt backed into a corner and had no choice. That being said, just because a person makes a WRONG agreement does not mean they have to be bound to that wrong agreement. The solution to a WRONG agreement is NOT to keep said agreement, but to BREAK agreement openly and this is where he went wrong. <p>So, if you were to ask me where a good starting point would be [and you DID ask!] I would say it is WITH YOU in a REALISTIC evaluation of your husband's behavior and your overreaction to it. The dishonesty factor is definately at the top of the list and would be a good starting point.<p>So, that is my take on your situation and you can take it or leave it. But please don't get snippy if you don't like what you asked for. Remember, it was *YOU* who came here asking for input, we didn't seek you out.

P.S. zoey, I apologize for the harsh tone of my post - I do tend to be very direct. I really do want to help you and I hope you will forgive my tone.

I really wanted some reassurance that things can get better..And some help finding ways to get there.. We have been through all the discussions and possible solutions... This is really about honesty. I feel as if he has cheated emotionally on me maybe that's not the same as really cheating to others but to me it is. I have this sick feeling in my stomach even writing these issues down. Sorry if I sound snippy but it seems everyone is criticizing my beliefs/ feelings. They are my feelings regardless if others think porn is ok - I don't. I am very devestated by all of this- and I really didn't expect this much criticizm since I tried to state the issue honestly. Like I said I'm just looking for real solutions... Ways to rebuild what we had- things that people have tried and succeeded with. I am fully aware that my behaviors may not have been healthy for our relationship- not everyone acts rational when faced with an issue that hurts them deeply as I am sure you all know. I would appreciate kind, helpful responses....

Hi sortofunfaithful????, (I mis-addressed my initial reply)<p>My reply is not meant to be an attack on you or your values or a solicitation for you to &#8216;break down&#8217;.<p>Just my opinion, I could be wrong...<p>You asked &#8220;Am I overreacting because of past events?&#8221; and this is my honest reply. <p>From what I am reading of what you typed here, yes.<p>&#8220;My H is aware of my "issues with Porn" VERY aware. I think it is disgusting and it is taking away the intimacy and respect from our relationship.&#8221;<p>My reaction was to question the strength of your reaction is &#8220;why&#8221;?<p>Perhaps he is being insensitive.
Definitely he is not being honest.
Again, why? It sure doesn&#8217;t sound like he is a &#8216;sex addict&#8217;.<p>Let&#8217;s take this one more step&#8230; Suppose the porn isn&#8217;t involved but he is still "good to himself" when alone in the privacy of his home, then what? <p>Is he still reducing the intimacy and respect from the relationship?
Why?<p>The MB weekend talks about the typical situation of an imbalance of frequency or type of sexual activity.<p>&#8216;Taking turns&#8217; is one way to deal with it. Personally, I find it __extremely difficult__ to ask for &#8216;my turn&#8217;, especially when my W hasn&#8217;t taken &#8216;her turn&#8217; in a while. There is a HUGE amount of baggage in my, hers, and our history that gets in the way. It can take enormous courage for someone to ask for what they would like &#8211; especially if the other person doesn&#8217;t react well. It takes even more courage to ask again.<p>I wonder why he is so easily &#8216;caught&#8217;? <p>&#8220;Have you read about joint agreement?&#8221;<p>The POJA has it&#8217;s limits. For example, can expect my wife to stop going to church because I don&#8217;t &#8216;enthusiastically agree&#8217;? I think not. The reason I think not is because I don&#8217;t feel I have a good enough reason to ask her to not do it. Am I &#8216;comfortable&#8217; with it? No. Why? Mostly my baggage.<p>On this, I need to &#8216;get past it&#8217; because my baggage is just not important enough in this instance.<p>Couples misusing POJA can easily get themselves into a situation where they don&#8217;t do anything which is counterproductive. <p>Suppose I was depressed and didn&#8217;t want to do anything. Can I enforce my W to not do anything based on POJA? I think not. <p>It sounds to me like POJA is being used as a way to control the other person.
The only person we can control is ourselves and I can hardly do that! :&#8217 [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Would you __really__ divorce the man you promised &#8220;&#8230;for better or worse&#8230;&#8221; about because of this?<p>I hope not. It sounds like besides communicating about this difficult issue, you have a good relationship. <p>JMO-ICBW&#8230;<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Vanilla'd ]</p>

Hello zoey,<p>I am back. I apologize deeply if I offended you. It was not my intent. But it was my intent to give you my response to what I read. So for clarity permit me to highlight a few of your statements and afterwards offer some suggestions.<p>As usual you can do with them as you please.<p>You said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I confronted him and he was embarrassed of course. he said it was something he just did a few times in the last year. When I wasn't home. It wasn't a reflection of our relationship. He wanted to throw it away and I told him to keep it and we could use it together only. He swore to always tell me the truth (just like he did about the engagement). I really tried to forgive and I went out of my way to give him the intimacy that he wanted. I felt things were getting better. <hr></blockquote><p>He offered to throw it away and you said NO. Further you offered to use it together. Personally, I think this is a very mature approach.<p>While he appreciated the intimacy, you are missing the point. Porn is not about you. It is about his curiousity (very likely) and it is about fantasy. Now if you give him enough sex, you can wear him out to the level that nude women won't interest him, but I doubt you want that much sex. He is after all only 28. That zoey is still a young man.<p>Futher you said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>A month ago, his friend borrowed his truck and left 3 adult magazines under the seat. ( this is true) My H told me that they were there ( he was being honest like he promised) and I assumed he threw them away given the nature of our last argument. A few weeks later I used the truck and when I moved the seat up, what did I find? The magazines- and they were opened! I confronted him discussed the issue and asked for a divorce. <hr></blockquote><p>So lets see here. He didn't do as you assumed (throw it away) and so you asked for a divorce. Didn't you just give him the opposite message before? Further, this stuff wasn't in your house and it wasn't under your nose. It was in HIS truck and you know he didn't put it there.<p>The again you said: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> So, what now? 3 strikes- It may seem petty, but I am devestated. I cant be intimate because all I think of is the
"stuff" he had and if in another month he will forget his promise again for something he desires.<hr></blockquote> <p>You are devastated about the porn or the lies? Which is it? You have withheld intimacy and you have treated him worse than a child by acting in a childish manner. You say and do one thing, then you change your mind and ASSUME he can read it and ask for a divorce. Hello, black and white is not your behavior that is for sure. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I feel like he has cheated even though there is no other woman. I have so much resentment and anger that I can't seem to let go of. <hr></blockquote><p>Then you tell me: <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>My H is aware of my "issues with Porn" VERY aware. <hr></blockquote> <p>I really doubt that he is. Given the your statements and behavior so far.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I think it is disgusting and it is taking away the intimacy and respect from our relationship. This is not an issue of casually looking at a few mags. I hear you saying that if he enjoys looking at porn and it makes him feel good he should be allowed that even if it hurts me and our relationship. <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, you hear what you heard, but you didn't hear the rest of it. So pay attention.<p>Yes, you obviously do have a lot of anger and resentment. zoey you are entitled to your boundaries, your morals, and your position in life. You are not entitled to anyone else's life. Your H joined you in marriage voluntarily. He has issues to deal with and lying is one of them.
Frankly if you had pulled this on me I would not have lied to you. I would have told you you are NOT RUNNING MY LIFE. AND THEN... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] knowing what I have learned from this site I would have suggested that we use what is known here as the Policy Of Joint Agreement (POJA).<p>What is this policy? Well, Harley proposes along with his 4 rules, that no action should be taken until both parties enthusiastically agree with it.
In the case of the porn he wants to look at and you say it sickens you. Pretty polar right? Well, there are compromises that could be reached that would meet both of your positions. THat is if compromise is what you want.<p>I sense you feel he has been a bad "little" boy and should be punished. He isn't acting remoreful enough for you, and further he is trying to avoid your wrath, by lying to you. Your solution so far: withhold intimacy and ask for a divorce.<p>You are both acting like children. Sadly, many adults do and that is why the Harley's and many other Marriage counselors, and divorce attorney's are NOT seeing an recession in their line of work.<p>So my suggestion to you is quit trying to control your H for awhile. Talk and I mean really talk and don't "assume" about your issues. I realize that you are a trained counselor, but I suspect you are used to people doing it your way. Maybe you need to ask him what his way would be if he had total control of your life and his.<p>I suspect that could be an interesting discussion. Would there be porn in his life? Would you be in his life? Would there be more sex? More hugging and kissing? More recreation he likes? More playing or less playing with the children?<p>Try it.<p>Or more importantly, don't listen to an amateur like me. Go read Harley's His Needs Her Needs which is really what I am leading up to. You need to understand what his needs really are and he needs to understand yours. He may need the sexual stimulation of porn to focus and perform. He may not. He may just be curious.<p>After all women get to have their porn. Those romance novels are escapism in the same manner and it does lead to great dissatisfaction with us mere mortal men. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Further, look at all of the women's magazines. Most of the women on those covers are wearing little and promising a lot, not to mention the articles on sex in them.<p>Dear lady unfortunately in this world it is hard to escape from the commercial use and presentation of sex. I haven't even mentioned the net yet.<p>So realize he isn't going to escape being tempted to look. It is everywhere. What you need to understand is where and why you are coming from where you are. And if you can accept your H.<p>I mean he is almost perfect, except that you cannot stand him. Right?<p>I do hope this causes you to think, even if you don't agree with a thing I have said.<p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>PS: You are going to hear this over and over again on this site. The only person you can change is you. That is why we are talking to you about yourself and not so much him. So examine yourself carefully and see where changes in you might make this marriage better.<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</p>

Hi sortofunfaithful????,<p>Our replies occurred at the same time.
I empathise with the distress it causes you.<p>Many of us are in similar situations where one spouse thinks something is 'normal' and the other things 'not in my world!'. I am in your shoes about what 'dating' consists of and am heartsick about it - especially when we 'agreed' what it 'meant' prior to building our relationship.<p>For me, though, the issue is what someone does with others - even imagionary people. For example, and imagionary sexual activity with children would be a marriage breaker for me too.
However, if my W had an imagionary sexual experience with an adult, I wouldn't like it but it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.<p>But that's just me.<p>I am glad that you found this forum.
It has been the FIRST source of insight, support, honesty, and empathy that I have found in 20 (no kidding) years of looking.<p>Ignore the people who are offensive but please don't ignore people who ask tough questions.
You don't need to respond to them, but just think about the questions.<p>Keep talking. Use what works for you.<p>All the best,
-Tom

Zoey I wasn't trying to attack you either. My husband is the exact same age as yours. I have learned that you have to pick and choose your battles. Some are worth putting your foot down while others are not. It isn't worth forcing your husband to feel like he is being controlled. What he is doing isn't something you agree with, but it is not infidelity in the least. All young men his age will look at naked women. It doesn't mean he doesn't love you or think you are beautiful. If he were up until all hours of the night looking up porn on the internet or if he was "being extra nice to himself" so much that he had no interest in sex with you then it becomes a problem. Some things guys do that get to you are not worth the effort of putting up a huge battle which will cause friction in the marriage....trust me I have been there. I could get mad and throw a nag fit over stinky socks on the floor all the time or the fact that he sneaks and smokes cigarrettes in the house then claims he didn't. I don't because they are minute little things. You asked if your situation will get better. My opinion is I doubt it. It may just get worse. Like I said I call it pick and choose your battles. Evaluate how destructive his behavior really is to your marriage. If you attempt to crack a whip over him about an issue such as masterbating or looking at magazines he will view it as very controlling and it will push him away from you. Both of these activities within reason are harmless. It's not worth the energy you are putting into it.

A suggestion:<p>Sit down with your H when you will have each other's undivided attention. Tell him you love him, and tell him what a good H and father he is and how much you appreciate that.<p>Apologize for using the threat of divorce and withdrawal of intimacy against him as a way to deal with his breaking his word to you **.<p>Tell him in plain words what is acceptable to you and why. (You cannot indicate that something is acceptable one day, then punish him for it the next. That in itself is not being honest with him.) Tell him that each of you must be able to trust the other to keep his/her word or there is no foundation of your relationship.<p>THEN, listen to your H. Really listen to what he has to say. Expect him to tell you how much your behavior has hurt him. BTW, if he is the man you say he is, I'll bet he will honor you request to keep the magazines out of your home and vehicles.<p>JL is right, though, zoey. The only one we can force to change is ourselves. And we have to be willing to acknowledge that our spouse has the right to have his/her needs met. The skill that needs to be developed is negotiation. There is information about negotiating in marriage on the main web site. <p>** Your threat of divorce may have shattered your H's trust in the level of your commitment to him and to your M. IMHO, it would be wise to carefully look into this possibility. MBers who are living with the real possibility
of divorce know that just the thought that our spouse may be abandoning us is devastating.<p>I hope you find the answers you are looking for, zoey. Remember, a successful relationship takes two people who respect each other. Can you take a minute to listen to your H's point of view? Don't shut him out as you present your viewpoint.<p>Good luck,
Estes<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

Zoey,<p>You will find that on MB, there is a mixture of opinions about the destructive or benign nature pornography has on a marriage. My opinion about pornography is dramatically different from that of say, "Hoping I'm Allowed Here" and "Melody Lane". <p>However disrespectful some people may be in confronting you, the best response for relationship building here came from Just Learning. Part of their reaction might come from you sharing that you have two degrees in counseling, so they might expect you to "know" better. But having worked for people who were excellent in the counseling profession who had terrible times in their personal relationships, I can understand the difficulty you might have being so vulnerable here, and having truth delivered to you very directly.<p>*****************<p>That being said, here's my experience. My experience is unique and I don't speak for anyone else so if others have had positive experiences with porn, more power to them. To me, it's vile, evil, destructive and cheapens the sacred marital bond, and destroyed my husband.<p>My husband is addicted to pornography. I know from personal experience that it is an addiction and I get offended by ignorant people's attempts to minimize the harm it can do for some people. I also joined with him in the beginning, thinking that as long as we "shared" in the participation and he wasn't looking at it alone, it would enhance our relationship. WRONG. I lost all my ability to be sexual. My intimate feelings had been literally nuked. Porn left me cold. He left me cold. I felt like an object instead of a woman with feelings.<p>Then it got worse. He got cranky and almost mean. He did slip-shoddy work in our business and we'd have to do costly do-overs and he'd get mad that the customers were "so picky". But he'd been looking at the mags when he should have been watching the equipment that produced the work. He wasn't even trying. He lost his ambition and his ability to support his family. <p>He's a wonderful man. Loving. Tender. Compassionate. Talented. But under the influence of pornography or boredom, he sells himself short. He sells the marriage short. And he is anything but faithful to me in his heart. <p>Rather than take your marriage to melt-down when you find a stash, use the opportunity for a heart-to-heart talk about how it makes you feel, and how you wonder what he's feeling for you. <p>Marriage Builders can help you change YOUR behavior, not his. It can help you communicate more love to him. It can help you avoid adding to the marital difficulties that the porn creates by helping you respond to his needs rather than reacting from a place of fear and insecurity.<p>Marriage Builders can also give you the tools to get him involved in POSITIVE marriage building. He sounds like he'd really like to do that from what you've shared.<p>P.S. Just Learning suggested the Point of Joint Agreement. Great fundamental marriage skill for dealing with a minor porn problem. Major porn problems like my husband's situation require a 12 step anon program for the wife. Otherwise, we throw out a perfectly good man who has a bad problem.<p>[ December 28, 2001: Message edited by: KaylaAndy ]</p>

Personally I find porn disgusting. I don’t understand why some men have the desire to look at it. My husband is one of those men. He knew my views on it before we were ever married. When I first found out about it I asked him why. His reply, curiosity. Said he wouldn't look again but he did, several times. Comes down to this, my opinion on porn (or for that matter anything) is just that MY OPINION. He doesn't have the same opinions I do. To enforce my opinion on him would be a tyranny. Then we lose what is the best part of our marriage, the partnership. So if he won't stop, which I suspect merely ordering him to isn't going to work. You have a choice, you can divorce him or learn to compromise with him and live with it. <p>In my case, as I let go of trying to control my husband through my opinions he let go of the porn.

KaylaAndy I didn't mean to imply that porn isn't destructive in a marriage. I did state in one of my posts above that disgusting porn and being obsessive about it is a problem. In my opinion looking at a magazine or masterbation is not. That's my opinion and it's ok if we don't agree. I just would hate to see any marriage suffer if a person looks at a magazine here and there. Like a said overly obssessive like doing it at work and causing your day to day functions to suffer isn't normal. I hope I didn't come across as rude in any of my posts. The truth is most men do look at naked women from time to time and one would be hard pressed to find one that doesn't. I am talking about Playboy and the like. I too think hardcore porn is gross and I would definitely be concerned if my husband was into that.

Wow!
I think this got kinda off track on the porn thing...That is the major trigger to losing my trust because before we were actually married I told him I felt it is degrading to view people in this manner and he agreed- but as with every problem there are usually more factors than just the one that becomes focused on as the cause of conflict. This issue goes quite a bit deeper than just looking a few magazines here and there as I stated before.
The issue is all around trust.. not pornography. he broke my trust by doing something we MUTUALLY agreed would hurt our relationship- regardless of if it is wright or wrong it hurt us. We Have spent many hours discussing these issues and come to many conclusions. He chose to make me a promise not to use this type of material. He doesn't feel I am attempting to control him. He also does not think it is unreasonable for me to ask him not to partake in this type of material as he stated HE would be devestated if I began looking at porn and pleasuring myself with or without him knowing. He just hasn't been able to keep his promises to me regarding this issue.
WE both spent last night going over the main principles of this site and I think it just might help.
I fully understand the concept that everyone makes their own choices- and only you can change yourself- (btw- My 2 degrees are in chem dep/addiction and family counseling) I just don't believe that porn itself is the issue and he doesn't either. (if you read the first paragraph in the post you will see there are other times he has mislead or not been honest about things that he thought might change my feelings for him) Maybe I wrote the post in a way that it was read different than I had intended.

All in all it was a different experience having others outside the circle comment on the problem. And as Estes (i think) stated very correctly that it is very difficult as a counselor to objectivly view and handle you own problems because you have your own emotions,beliefs and personal agendas in the way. Even though you have been trained to handle situations, once personal emotions get involved your education goes down the drain. I have closed off emotionally and am having a very difficult time regaining emotions. I have agreed to try these concepts and I would greatly appreciate any suggestions to help regain these feelings. Thanks for the suggestions already posted-
I do have a suggestion to make for some of the posters- Sometimes it is very difficult for a person to tell others about a problem they are having- and sometimes when they finally come to a breaking point and they will try anything that might help- they divuldge their sometimes bias personal thoughts and emotions ( to a stranger or friend) It is best to meet them with compassion and empathy rather than criticizm. Many people are aware of their short comings whether they care to admit them or not. If you truly are in a position that you care to help and not hurt a person in a fragile emotional state it is best to help with kindness and understanding. Most relationship problems are very tramatic to the people involved no matter how trivial they may seem to you. Other peoples experiences can be very helpful in recovery if used in the right manner. Judging a person and jumping to conclusions rarely help anything other than allowing the person who is doing it to vent their personal issues. You can point out flaws but do it carefully- your comments could push a person who is already very upset over the edge... You will never know the full scope of another person's issues by reading 3 paragraphs regarding a problem. Sometimes you don't even know after 3 months of therapy.
btw- I still think male and female porn is disgusting [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]