Hey there...<p>I've been reading your thread w/ interest...<p>There are so many similarities between you and my H...I wonder if you had had your A few years earlier where you would be now...both you and thinker are so far along and so deep into each one's pain....it's kinda like seeing what my future would have been like...this A has been such a big wake-up call for me...<p>While I no longer have the 'BIG' blow ups that I used to have...I recognize there are times when I try to 'control' the situation...as my H has so 'unkindly' told me a few times...even my book reading and learning is a subtle way to 'control' the situation...hmmmmmm....<p>I'm even taking some of your advice...taking a good look at my H...do we still 'fit?' Did we ever? going over our early courtship...making a marital timeline (ala David Carder).
Some thoughts for you that I have been mulling over this last couple of weeks:<p>#1. You gotta quit justifying what you are doing and what you have done. You married Thinker. period. Maybe selfishly so...after all was said and done...to not cause her pain then...hmmmm. My H says the same. Funny...I did not threaten suicide...cry...was coming to the determination that he and I should separate and find separate places to live (I was away for a week...thinking about our lives...) He remembers that I had a pregnancy scare...felt pressured to marry me...I was not pregnant and he knew that full well when he asked me to marry him...in fact...it was another 4 years and 6 months on Clomid to get pregnant with the 1st. Doesn't matter really...he made a choice then...to make me responsible is to be in denial...to make Thinker responsible for your choice enables you to be less responsible. Give it up. Why you got married doesn't make you less married nor justify why you shouldn't be married. <p>
#2. Over the years you and Thinker developed a pattern in your relationship. I am sure that needs on both sides went unfilled...why is love still there for her? maybe you fulfill her top needs...I know my H does for me..that is why it is so hard for my lovebank to dry up...on the other hand...my LB's directly affected my H's lovebank...they were withdrawals from his top needs...lovebank dry like desert waiting for OW to fill them up...(she was an expert in this area...4X married woman...a former coworker who worked with she and I calls her "infidelity personified.")I know that you have said over and over that you have worked hard and given in and done things her way...hmmmm...again my H says that too. Again. past history. get over it. either accept the way you are and she is or get out. Acceptance. Thinker is. You are. After this many years neither one of you is apt to be very different...but your reaction to one another can be very different...my H said "You're(Cali) not going to be happy with the way things are going to be." "H***, I'm not happy. Things are going to be the way they're going to be and we both just have to accept it." . I saved this voice message and I replay it...still thinking about it...<p>#3. It is time to get unstuck. Think the 'Butterfly Effect'. The smallest change made by either of you can make a BIG difference to the both of you. You can USE this experience as the BIGGEST teachable moment of your life...or NOT. Crisis as Opportunity. or Crisis as a means to an end. Again. Finally. I say to you. Christian to Christian. Get on your knees and pray. God, not YOU should be first in your life. What is His will for YOU and your marriage? And I know that you will balk at this...a subtle way for a controller to control? using God? Nope. <p>I disagree with my H that I will not like what is to be...why? because I have a total trust in God. My life has not always been pleasant...but I have NEVER been abandoned by Him. As long as I keep Him close and call to him FIRST...things have gone wrong when I tried it MY way FIRST...<p>You are right SnL...happiness does NOT come from within...it comes from HIM.
Cali

SnL...Yesterday's message at church was from 1Thessalonians...<p>How we need to make a New Year's Revolution (yeah, not resolution)...<p>Again, I thought about what I had written to you...<p>You are in my prayers. May God soften your heart to feel, your ears to hear and your eyes to see His will for you.<p>Cali

cali...#1. You gotta quit justifying what you are doing and what you have done. <p>snl...For the nth time, I don't justify, I seek understanding. I don't need to justify, that implies I need approval, or understanding (from others), I need neither, I only need to decide how to go from here, and that is what I have been doing. I have led my entire life doing what I think is best, and accepting the consequences. I am no different now.<p>cali...You married Thinker. period. <p>snl..Yep. And that means I have incurred lifelong obligations, one of which is to treat her fairly, and I am doing my utmost to do that. What it doesn't mean is I owe her my life, no one does, it must be freely given, everyday, from the heart. I have done duty for 24 years, I cannot do it anymore, it must be passion, it must be fitting, and if it is not, one should not fake it, and be married just to be married. <p>cali...Maybe selfishly so...after all was said and done...to not cause her pain then...hmmmm. My H says the same.<p>snl...This was the hardest part for me to deal with. It would be easy to feel I was the sacrificial lamb, marrying her out of duty and such (and I did for years, and it made me angry when she mistreated me and was not properly grateful of my sacrifice), and how she let me down. But the fact is I am to fault, I was the one that had a better grasp of the nature of our relationship, I was the one who decided we could get married. Yes she used manipulative behaviours, but that doesn't excuse me. I knew we were in for trouble, I had good instincts, but I just didn't know enough, my pride made me think I could somehow fix all this by giving myself to her. Now I do not know how your H felt, but the difference is where we are now, this is not thinkers fault, it is mine. I am not so sure your H feels the same.<p>cali...Doesn't matter really...he made a choice then...to make me responsible is to be in denial...to make Thinker responsible for your choice enables you to be less responsible. Give it up. Why you got married doesn't make you less married nor justify why you shouldn't be married.<p>snl...Where did you ever get the idea I thought she was responsible? This is all my fault in spades. She did play a role, and is not innocent, she did not have to agree to marriage either. I talked then just as much as I do now, she knew what I thought of our prospects and why. She said she would change. I had no right to expect her to change, it was very stupid of me. And now I pay that price, if we seperate, I will have to carry that guilt the rest of my life, and it ain't much fun. But a marriage based on guilt is even worse, that is why I am trying so hard to understand all this, I want to get it right. <p>cali...#2. Over the years you and Thinker developed a pattern in your relationship. I am sure that needs on both sides went unfilled...why is love still there for her? <p>snl..I care about her cali, that is not the point. We are not in-love and never have been (and yes I see all the eyes rolling, but ya know, not every marriage is a passionate one, shocking as that may be). The issue is is caring a basis for marriage, no it is not. I can care for her exactly the same married or not, caring does not make bonding or intimacy, and that is what marriage is about (well, now I know it is not for everyone, but it is for me). As for needs, heck everyone feels some needs for another, it gets kinda silly after awhile. Obviously if she was totally hateful ( or I) we would not be married. Heck cali, you and I could marry and simply being married would meet some needs, financial support, domestic support, etc. This notion that just cause you married, and don't hate each other means you are meant for each other drives me nuts, it means nothing, to some extent anyone can get along with anyone, that is not what marriage is about.<p>cali...maybe you fulfill her top needs...<p>snl...Not according to her. Nor she I. But I don't think it is deliberate neglect, I don't think we can, and that is a consequence of fit.<p>cali...I know my H does for me..that is why it is so hard for my lovebank to dry up...<p>snl...You know I wonder about that. What needs does he fulfill? The main one seems to be SF, and anyone could do that, so what makes him special? Sometimes I get the sense you are insecure about being desireable as a marital partner, and settle for H....oh yeah, you mention you think he is a good dad, that is a tough one, a parent should be a good dad, and obviously as spouses we find that attractive, but it is not enough to base a marriage on, kids grow up, but you spend a lifetime yoked, and family support is not an intimacy it is our DNA talking.<p>cali...on the other hand...my LB's directly affected my H's lovebank...they were withdrawals from his top needs...lovebank dry like desert waiting for OW to fill them up...(she was an expert in this area...4X married woman...a former coworker who worked with she and I calls her "infidelity personified.")<p>snl....Well, no one should LB anyways. But if it takes someone who has been married 4x to meet your H needs, I cannot help but wonder why you would want to emulate that...ya know?<p>cali...I know that you have said over and over that you have worked hard and given in and done things her way...hmmmm...again my H says that too. Again. past history. get over it. <p>snl.... I don't believe in getting over it. The past is a very accurate predictor of the future. IMO the past needs to be kept very close and compared to supposed changes in the present. At some point the changes one is required to make to meet anothers needs exceed their willingness to change who they are...what then? For example, my w does not like me intellectualizing, figuring out life etc., stresses her, she wants me to stop...why would I do that? She says rule of protection requires me too, she is right...but only if I am married to her. When changing yourself (by MB standards) to protect and nurture your spouse changes you more than you want to change, IMO we are back into fit, the square peg round hole etc. you don't do it, cause breeds resentment, and the rewards are not "worth" it (the keeping score model of marriage). Further I do not want my wife to change, I do not want her to be anything other than who she is, I do not want her "working" at meeting my needs. I want her to be happy with who she is, and with who she fits, and if not me, than one who does. This whole notion of changing who you are to worship this idea of saving a marriage disturbs me alot, it is not too far removed from brainwashing. I do think we should all "work" at not love busting, and we should explore what needs both have and whether we want to meet them (as in are enthusiastic, and enjoy it), abd if not, amicably part company.<p>cali...either accept the way you are and she is or get out. Acceptance. Thinker is. You are. After this many years neither one of you is apt to be very different...<p>snl...Exactly, I think I just said that.<p>cali...#3. It is time to get unstuck. <p>snl...Yes, we have been stuck and both unhappy many years.<p>cali...Think the 'Butterfly Effect'. The smallest change made by either of you can make a BIG difference to the both of you. <p>snl..Not likely, we have made all these kinds of accomodations years ago.<p>cali...You can USE this experience as the BIGGEST teachable moment of your life...or NOT. Crisis as Opportunity. or Crisis as a means to an end.<p>snl...Absolutely, and is what I am doing. If I just give in, and default to staying married and making it work just cause this is my life, then I have failed to take advantage. I can change my life, and thinkers there is no obviously right answer, seperateing may be the best choice for us both, but one not necessarily recognized by either of us.<p>cali...Again. Finally. I say to you. Christian to Christian. Get on your knees and pray. God, not YOU should be first in your life. What is His will for YOU and your marriage? And I know that you will balk at this...a subtle way for a controller to control? using God? Nope. <p>snl...Do it all the time cali. I gave this up to God long ago, it was the only way to regain any peace or balance. But usually when people say this they are implying this will lead you to a restored marriage, that is pre-decideing God's will, and I do not believe that is the only place God will take one. The thing about asking for God's help is it might not be what you "think" it will be. I prayed alot to God long before ow appeared for resolution in my marriage....God moves in mysterious ways Cali, make sure you do not put Him in a box, and miss his message. I am comfortable whereever this ends up it will be where God wants me to go. But that means I have to be very proactive, cause He is not going to teleport me there, I have to walk on my own two feet, through the fire.<p>cali...I disagree with my H that I will not like what is to be...why? because I have a total trust in God. My life has not always been pleasant...but I have NEVER been abandoned by Him. As long as I keep Him close and call to him FIRST...things have gone wrong when I tried it MY way FIRST...<p>snl...Do you think God can lead one from a marriage? <p>cali...You are right SnL...happiness does NOT come from within...it comes from HIM.<p>snl...That is a toughie cali, isn't God within us (in our hearts)?<p>[ January 01, 2002: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

snl...Do you think God can lead one from a marriage? <p>Guess it depends on the marriage ... from abusive marriage, certainly ... from a marriage where there is not abuse ... I am not sure why He would ... if we live in His will, if we treat one another as He would treat us ... why would he advocate the break up of a family? maybe affair serves as a BIG wake up call ... I have made HUGE changes that EVERYONE notices ... and I'm not talking cosmetic ... God had pointed me that way before, I resisted ... now it is my H's turn ... he is 'unhappy' because he feels he has not accomplished much in his 40-some years ... my LB's exacerbated those feelings ... now I have more acceptance of God's will and KNOW that my H has to come to his own determination of his acceptance of God's will in his own time ... he is still resisting ...<p>cali...You are right SnL...happiness does NOT come from within...it comes from HIM.<p>snl...That is a toughie cali, isn't God within us (in our hearts)?
<p>Yeah ... are you really listening? With true acceptance of His will, you will find your happiness ... no one can lead you there but Him and no one can make you open to Him but you.<p>Have you checked out "Secrets of the Vine" yet?