If they are in love with the OP, should the bs still plan a?<p>Wouldn't any plan in that situation be just a waste of time?

Spiro, i am with you. it is hard to tell. redhat sent me some links to "notable posts" that had some info in it about this. but I guess the upshot is, there is no way to tell. And from what I can tell, and I have only been on MB a few days, no one here has a crystal ball [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , or if they do, they are not sharing. [img]images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0[/img]

HI, IMHO, I do not think WS is really possible of love during this time of their lives.. do you really think something based on lying and deceit is love.. no it is usually confusion, lust and the illicit secrecy of it they like...I do not think these affairs are of love at all. Many affairs -eventually if they end in marriage end in divorce.. I would not worry if they are in love, if they thnk they are.. they probably arent' I would call the whole affair confusion! HUGs to you, HONEY

Spiro and isitpossible,<p>If the BS wants to give the marriage a chance and not rush to divorce, they definitely should plan a. Only good can come from plan a, even if the WS eventually decides to end the marriage. One of the purposes of plan a is to provide an environment at home that the WS would feel safe in if he/she decides to recommit to the marriage. Another purpose is to provide an opportunity for the BS to do his/ her best to salvage the relationship. This way, if the relationship does end, they can be at peace with themselves.<p>Plan a is not a waste of time in a very practical way. Even though a WS may really love the OP, many WS choose to return to the marriage for a variety of reasons. Many of those marriages survive (according to what I read). By not rushing to divorce the WS, the BS gives the WS time to decide what to do.<p>Estes

I posted this on one of Honey's thread....<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Plan A does not begin after there is no-contact, it begins IMMEDIATELY when the betrayed spouse decides they want their marriage to work.
Plan A can begin BEFORE there is a d-day.<p>Lovebusting is not part of plan A. There is NO ROOM FOR LOVEBUSTING in plan A, or plan B, or - even plan D. Lovebusting must end IMMEDIATELY.<p>What is a lovebuster? ASK your spouse! They define it!<hr></blockquote><p>So.... First Question: Do you want to see your marriage restored? If the answer is yes, move into plan A - pronto!<p>First Action in plan A: Stop All Lovebusters!<p>TNT

good question spiro, kind of a subset of the what is love and marriage questions I pose (and struggle with) all the time. In all due respect, I think there is a better way to pose this concern. First I think it is pretty much impossible for anyone to discern the status of anothers heart. So I don't think trying to decide whether your ws is wandering due to love or not is particularly uselful. If we could all know with certainty the nature of others hearts, life would be very different, would be nice if their was some sort of test for this..... then we could "fight" or move on with much greater peace of mind.<p>Instead I think the question is, do you love your spouse/SO, the kneejerk answer is of course I do, and a lot of hostility to anyone who suggests otherwise. Yet it seems ever more obvious (to me) that in-love is a um....elusive animal, not easily found. Many people love someone cause they are use to them, or have history with them, or kids with them, or are afraid to be alone, are dependent on them, or care about them, or do not want to make them and others unhappy, and so forth and so on, none of which has anything to do with in-love.... <p>If you decide you are in-love (whatever criteria you decide is relevant to that decision) than go for it. But it takes a lot of real serious introspection to answer that question honestly, and few do it far as I can see. But the good news is the ws is probably not in-love with op either, so you have a good chance of restoring the relationship if you both can come to an accomodation and then I guess whether in-love exists is really not important, long as you are both happy.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong>....But the good news is the ws is probably not in-love with op either, so you have a good chance of restoring the relationship if you both can come to an accomodation and then I guess whether in-love exists is really not important, long as you are both happy.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Wait just a minute hold everything stop the presses! WHAT are saying?!?!?! I thought YOU were the one who espouses the "If they fit w/op, who is BS to interfere?"<p>What is this "...the ws is probably not in-love w/op either..."??? WHY are they with op if they don't think they are " in-love" ???<p>Please clarify yourself, I'm confused. Not that this is anything new with most of your posts, but this one really "threw me" and I'm trying to understand what you mean.<p>TIA,
Lupo

lupo...Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
....But the good news is the ws is probably not in-love with op either, so you have a good chance of restoring the relationship if you both can come to an accomodation and then I guess whether in-love exists is really not important, long as you are both happy.<p>lupo...Wait just a minute hold everything stop the presses! WHAT are saying?!?!?! I thought YOU were the one who espouses the "If they fit w/op, who is BS to interfere?"<p>snl...I never said that lupo. The bs has every right to conduct their life as they see fit. I have posted to threads about the effects (good and bad) of various things bs do or don't do (from the ws point of view), perhaps that is what is confusing. As to fit, all my discussions have been about the nature of love, marriage, and bonding, and the psychological relaities therein. I rarely (if ever) discuss the joys of affairs, my only position on affairs is they happen, are a normal phenomena, and are driven by the same forces that lead to marriage (or pormiscuity, or using people for sexual satisfaction, etc, etc.). That what is important about an affair is to determine why, and if it is cause the marriage does not fit, then the marriage should end, amicably IMO, why be married if both are not in-love, and so forth an so on.<p>lupo...What is this "...the ws is probably not in-love w/op either..."??? WHY are they with op if they don't think they are " in-love" ???<p>snl...Thinking in-love, and being in-love are two different things (as you know). I am just stating what I think is reality. I also don't think most marriages are in-love, or married cause of in-love either. I think the vast majority of relationships of all kinds, including marriage and affairs, are about using each other. I think it takes a lot of life skill and radical honesty to find a real in-love, I also think fitting that well is not that easy to find, and people settle (or are decieved), into inmitations all the time. That is why the divorce/unhappy rate is so high... Just like the accident rate would be a lot higher if we just gave 18 yo the carkeys and said have fun.<p>lupo...Please clarify yourself, I'm confused. Not that this is anything new with most of your posts, but this one really "threw me" and I'm trying to understand what you mean.<p>snl...Does this help?<p>My basic point was the same one the harleys make (and most others who observe human behaviour) the likelihood the affair is a better fit than the marriage is not likely, because it usually is based on the same behaviours that led to the marriage (unless someone has learned some serious lessons), and has some serious negatives as well. So the odds are if you wait it out it will die, if you couple that with a good plan a, prospects are bright for at least a good accomodation type marriage. If it is a true love affair, there is nothing you can do, the people bonded and other forces are at work, but these are rare (so it seems). However, the affair ending does not mean the marriage will work, the new information may lead bs or ws to conclude they need to change their life, that the marriage will not work, and so ends anyways. If you include all the marriages (many) that involve one (or both) partners who are not marriage material (due to addictions, obessions, personality disorders), hopefully they will end anyways, but that is a different issue.

Spiro,<p>Being in love with someone other than his/her spouse is an affair whether it has reached a physical level or not. So being in love is an affair. <p>How to know if the "love" is lasting love or temporary infatuation. Is that your question? <p>Since we can't get inside other people's head, there is probably no way that the BS/BSO can know in the beginning. In most cases, I don't think even the WS knows initially whether the feeling will last. They are consumed by emotions so intense that it really doesn't matter whether the love is real or not. The effect on the marriage and the BS is the same when the affair is discovered. <p>You asked about plan a. Because the betrayed partner may not know for many months whether the feeling the WS has for the OP is lasting love that he/she is willing to leave the marriage for, the BS applies plan a in hopes that it is not true love. That's why I said that plan a is worth the time. There's no fast track to the answer to your question. That's why BS try the best they can to outlast the A rather than to give up too quickly. Eventually, the BS knows whether the WS wants to remain them or leave the marriage. That realization comes when the BS is convinced either that the WS loves the OP more than them or that the WS plainly does not want to be married to them anymore whether he/she loves the OP or not.<p>Do I make any sense?<p>Estes

My answer to your question is a brief one: If you want the M, then go to plan A! Stop all LBs and learn to master your WS' top 2 ENs. Read everything about plan A, including the 'Misapplication of Plan A' thread currently on GQII.<p>It matters not whether the WS is 'in love' with the OP, not one stich when it comes to whether or not to implement plan A.<p>Just MHO,

I'd like to reply here... maybe I can give a WS point of view. I agree, often the WS is in such a fog that all they know is... they like how the OP makes them feel and they havent had that feeling in a long time.<p>I once heard that a person falls inlove with someone becuz of HOW that person makes them feel when they are with them. If your spouse isn't making you feel loved.... is constantly LB'ing, is angry most of the time and judgemental...then you become vulnerable to someone who makes you feel good to be around them.<p>Also, I've seen where the WS romanticizes about the OP... its not realistic tho.<p>Again, from my point of view, the best thing a BS can do is to provide a safe place for the WS to come back to them... eventually, the WS should see that the BS is the better person and that the OP was a symptom of how distant and unhappy their lives had become.<p>We are working on ours...and getting better.... [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img]

ConfusedMom,<p>From the point of view of a WS who decided to return to the marriage, what do you think is a realistic time that the BS should be expected to wait before he/she gives up? (other than "as long as it takes" or "as long as he/she can stand the stress") In other words, don't give up until you have given the WS at least ___ months to work things out. <p>Would you have worked to get BH back if he had filed for divorce or would you have given up? What about if the divorce were final. Do you love your H enough that you would have tried to reestablish the relationship after the divorce?<p>I appreciate any input anyone has. Thanks,
Estes<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</p>

spiro<p>My FWH told me he was in love with OW and not in love with me. I did a good plan A and now we are in full recovery and things are going great.<p>I feel that they try to convince themselves that they do not love us but I think they are fooling theirself. My H would tell me this but I knew in my heart that he did love me and was feeling guilty. <p>stay in Plan A and no LB<p>Stay strong and work on you for changes to last a life time.<p>
SLH

My WH refuses to say that the "strong feelings" he had for the OW were love or evne "in love". I feel "in love" is a temporary state that comes and goes,depending on where your head is at the time. I have been in love with my H often over the course of our long M and I have not,as well.
But I always LOVED him and I beleive that is the difference.
Do WE fit? Did they? Who knows...all I know is ...that if my H prefers another to me,he can GO with my blessing...I am worth much more than a temporary feeling or a roll in the hay...He WANTS to fit with ME so I guess that is how I feel about the famous "fit" theory. I Choose to be hppy witrh him and he chose me,too. What happens in the future we cannot predict...BUT I KNOW I will be OK, no matter what occurs.<p>I Think if you asked him during the A, he would have said he MAYBE loved her,or maybe that he could someday. He says now ,over a year later, that it always felt temporary and wrong, to him. I REALLY don't believe that...but I think that is what he needs to beleive. He says he didn't leave me FOR her but rather for himself, not to get "caught"...that he thought he had control of the situation and could keep me from the knowledge of the OW. <p>I Think certainly some people ARE truly in love with the OP and For me and me only, I would NOT want my M to continue in that case. I deserve better than that, after a lifetime with this man...I understand the temporary-ness of "in love", it only makes sense in my H's case.BUt WE are for a lifetime, he has no feeling for her now, beyond feeling sorry for her, a sad lonely, desparate woman. His words,to his "in love" partner and I am "beautiful inside and out".

So even if your WS fancies himself "in love",with the OP, it could be real and it could NOT be real...directly after D-DAy, my H would have said he missed her and felt badly for her pain. All sexual feeling for her was gone,immediately upon his confession. It is the place they put themselves in their heads, in order not to be such a bad person.Time has been the only thing that works, in his own clarity and mine.
It hurts terrible, doesn't it? But it does get better,over TIOME

S_N_L: I rarely (if ever) discuss the joys of affairs, my only position on affairs is they happen, are a normal phenomena, and are driven by the same forces that lead to marriage (or pormiscuity, or using people for sexual satisfaction
Lupo: OK, I concede, maybe not joys, but you espouse views that affairs "just happen" and are "normal" conditions, and no biggie. I disagree. The very nature of the devastation an A causes is evidence of that! Yes, driven by the same forces that lead to M, correct....wanting to feel "needs met, happy, etc." I agree. BUt is WRONG to continue A.<p>S_N_L: What is important about an affair is to determine why, and if it is cause the marriage does not fit, then the marriage should end
Lupo: You cannot decide during throes of an A if "the M should end amicably..." None of the "players" in an A are thinking clearly during this roller coaster. Making major, LIFE-ALTERING decisions should be avoided by all until rational thinking and feeling has returned.<p>snl...Thinking in-love, and being in-love are two different things (as you know). I am just stating what I think is reality. I also don't think most marriages are in-love, or married cause of in-love either. I think the vast majority of relationships of all kinds, including marriage and affairs, are about using each other. I think it takes a lot of life skill and radical honesty to find a real in-love, I also think fitting that well is not that easy to find, and people settle (or are decieved), into inmitations all the time. That is why the divorce/unhappy rate is so high...
lupo...I see what you mean. I think YOU seeing that "fitting that well is not that easy to find" is what people have been trying to say to you for all these months! My own personal view (as I'm sure you are aware now) is that "fitting" can be done by many people, IF we want to accommodate each other! We are adaptable, and changeable (to a certain point) and can learn to be more open in order to live happily with many different choices of partners. I do not mean changing your basic personality, per se, as I never think it's a good idea for anyone to change who they basically ARE, but rather, just let each other have their SPACE, and differences. I see couples who are sooo different, I often wonder what keeps them together! Somehow, they manage to work beyond their differences. Then I see others who are so SAME, I figure they must be BORED with each other! No telling why some "work" and others do not. I am beginning to think it has little to do with personality, and more to do with ability to communicate about differences, needs, etc., and DESIRE to stay happily M.<p>The main reason I believe this is that IF we all had ONLY ONE "perfectly-fit partner" then we wouldn't "fall in love" many times while dating before marrying the one we married! Think about it. We ALL do the dating thing, in order to find our "one true love." I don't believe in One-true love. I "found it" in someone else before I met and married my H. I THOUGHT I could have lived "happily ever after" with that guy....prolly could have, BUT HE wasn't in love w/me!! I met and dated another guy who loved ME, could have lived happily ever after, etc. BUT I didn't love HIM! But he loved me enough for both of us, and I could have "settled" for him.....hmmm. My point here is that I have been "in love" at least once before my H. Does that mean I could NEVER feel it again with anyone? No one else "fit me"? No, I think we MAKE our own FIT.<p>snl...My basic point was the same one the harleys make - the likelihood the affair is a better fit than the marriage is not likely, because it usually is based on the same behaviours that led to the marriage (unless someone has learned some serious lessons), and has some serious negatives as well. So the odds are if you wait it out it will die, if you couple that with a good plan a, prospects are bright for at least a good accomodation type marriage. If it is a true love affair, there is nothing you can do, the people bonded and other forces are at work, but these are rare (so it seems).
Lupo: Thank you, S_N_L. I see GREAT growth in you!<p>So, to go back to Spiro's original question, "isn't it true love?" - Yes, Spiro, I think it "feels like" true love. We experience true love many, many times in our lives. BUT WS's have committed TO US for thier lives and love, so A must end. It will, usually, if we wait it out. BUT we must be "attractive" - not driving them away with ugly behavior, words, etc. so they STAY away.<p>The reasons A ends, is b/c - as has been said - issues. Same issues which led to WS being "unhappy' in M. Usually these issues are within THEMSELVES, and these have not been fixed! So they get to the same place they were in their M to you, and begin to look around again....there you are! Waiting.<p>You are getting lots of good pointers, here. I hope this thread has helped you.<p>Lupo

Well speaking as a once WS who did leave their marriage I would have to say that if your spouse really, really wants out they'll get out. If they are still in the marriage there is always still a chance it can work.

Estes....<p>Wow, difficult questions to answer...if i had those answers, I wouldnt be going thru all that I am going thru. <p>It depends on the situation....the people in them.... the way they both interact with each other...the sincerity of their love and willingness to work things out.<p>I know for me...we are physically together.... never did leave or separate...and we both enjoy each others company.... and enjoy being the parents... H is the one I turn to in times of laughter (to share a joke)...or in times of hurt as well...so those are all good signs...<p>However.... the intimacy is still not there for me...he wants the intimacy and the sex..but something in me holds back... i think its from the years of his anger and his verbal abuse..(he has changed all of that and is becoming much more lovable...), but I'm struggling with that aspect.<p>I'm not sure how to answer your other questions...I don't know the answers until they happen... but I do know that our M is worth fighting for and hanging in there...... hope this helps......

ConfusedMom,<p>I appreciate your reply. There just are no pat answers, are there? I hope that you M continues to improve.<p>Estes

Quoted...<p>..."Same issues which led to WS being "unhappy' in M. Usually these issues are within THEMSELVES, and these have not been fixed!"<p>...way to not take responsibility for the condition of the relationship leading up to the affair!<p>Sorry...that sounded harsh, I know...but it's a bit of a stretch to say that all the marital problems in relationships pre-affair are there because of some "issues" the soon-to-be-WS needs to work out. That may be all of the reason, part of the reason, or NONE of the reason...it's a case-by-case situation, always...and it's unfair to generalize.<p>[ December 31, 2001: Message edited by: TowardsTheFuture ]</p>

I have never posted before, just lurked and read and may I say I have gained a lot from this site. However whether or not my ws loved the ow is causing me a lot of grief. He claims that although he thought at the tome he did, that once his affair was discovered he realised that he didn't care at all about losing her and couldn't bear the thought of losing me which in his mind proves that he always loved me and not her. I however worry constantly as theirs was a six year affair. The main thing is that I don't like to think of him settling for me and living a life where he he is trapped or loving someone else. I have tried to encourage him to look at what he feels for her. The fact that he states he feels nothing for her makes it difficult to understand the hell he has put me through. I also want to think that the man that I spend my future life with truly loves me.