For those of you who know me, you know I haven't been around here much lately...not much to tell, really...have been trying many things, have been putting MY life back together, following my own advice "plan for the worst, hope for the best, and hang on to your hats!"

Well, let's re-cap a bit. DDay was nearly 15 months ago, August 26/01, the first few weeks were the madness that most of us are familiar with. Then came Divorce-Busting and MB, together with counseling with 3 counselors for about 3-4 months, then Cing with Steve for another 4 months, Plan A all along, then after a year, Plan B, or semi-plan-b, I should say, as I continued contact, tried to show her I loved her and could forgive her regadless of what had happened, regardless of what might be happening...had some positive signals, but also confirmed continued contact with OM as late as Oct. 6th or so...

Then last night, quite by accident, I got an email my W's best friend replied to her (it came into an old email address we used to share) where her friend says

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"The whole situation is very sad...terrible if you stay with SC out of pity, that sounds horrible to me. If your "love is gone", as we say, there's nothing else to be done, no matter how hard and painful it may be. And you can't carry everyone's weight, take care of you; to get over your sorrow, your difficulties, and let SC get over his, and your children theirs. Don't try to carry all the weight, I know you! It's not worth it, nobody will thank you for it, and nobody will lay a wreath on your grave for that sacrifice and dedication. Besides, you can't support anyone if you are not ok yourself, it's enough with your own emotional load." etc. etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So for me, this is the final blow...15 months after dday, after trying almost everything there is for this, and after innumerable ddays, interminable lies, no communication, the time has come to put divorce on the table. Final call, last attempt...take it or leave it...after all, if she is truly unhappy with me, that is the right thing to do. I've said all along, I wish she'd just tell me she loves someone else, I can handle that...divorce me, and move on. But she's held on, bought time for herself in every possible way, and I gave her as much time as I could, tried everything I could think of...and here we are...at the same place.

So, later this week, once I get rid of the emotion that gripped me when I read the email, I will offer her a divorce...

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Dear SC,
I'm so sorry.

I had followed your post and had noticed that you weren't around as much. Behind the darkest clouds the sun still shines. May you finally have peace.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Spaceguy}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I wanted to cry when I read your post. If you need to talk, you know how to get a hold of me. If you lost the numbers, I'll send them again.

BB <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Spacecase - It hurts just to read your pain. The "friend" who emailed her is nothing more than an enabler who obviously knows little about how love grows.

But, it appears that you are right. At least in the sense that your wife just can't seem to make up her mind what she wants. With "advisors" like her friend, it's not going to get better either. I think you are right that the time has come to let her face the finality of her waffling. She can't keep one foot in the marriage and one foot outside. You know, as well as I do, that love is rebuilt through the DOING. She isn't listening to that because her friends are telling her, "if you don't feel that way now, there's no hope". It's garbage and we all know it, but until she deals with the reality of her decision, there is no way that she will put in the effort. It's a lot easier to just run away than it is to do the work necessary.

God bless you and give you comfort and guidance through this very trying time.

SC,

I read this and thought "just another piece of bad advice". Now, I also see it as your W struggling to figure out what to do. It seems she wants to stay married to you, but has no "in-love" feelings. Ever heard that before around here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I realize that you have a time line to move this along and perhaps this email coupled with your timeline is telling you go ahead and file for divorce. I am in no position to say this is good or not. You certainly are much closer to this and know what is going on better than I.

I guess I would take this as a sign to come out of Plan b and have a heart to heart talk with your W with a D being on the table.

My thinking here would be that you start ba affirming that she is probably struggling with whether to stay married and about whether she is in love with you. I would then suggest to her that the love you had was built up on less than what is still there now. Yes, some very bad memories, but also some very good memories and even children. I guess I would also tell her you love her and yourself enough to end this.

Then I would see where the conversation goes after these comments. She may need a push and she may need your firm guidance if she is willing to try at all. Or maybe it is time, but talk with her and perhaps talk with your children.

Whether you two want it or not they are in the middle of this. Perhaps they need to understand a bit of what is going on and the decisions being made. I don't mean for them to take sides, but perhaps offer their perspective on this situation. You never know "out of the mouths of babes..." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In any event I am sorry that this information has affected you as it has and perhaps it is the catalyst that is needed to bring this thing to the proper conclusion.

God Bless CS, you are a good man.

JL

gosh, spacecase, I am sorry to hear it has come to this. How much can a BS take? I think you have done everything you could. Maybe divorce will wake up your wife, or maybe not. But it could allow you to move on with your life. I know there are women out there who would appreciate you.

I think after 15 months you are justified in throwing in the towel, if that's what you want to do. Frankly, in your shoes I would be the one filing for divorce. And I think it is OK for you to file, even if you don't want the divorce. Isn't divorce a consequence? Isn't at some point a BS allowed to set some boundaries- like "I can't be married to someone who lies to me, cheats on me, and doesn't love me".

your "love is gone", as we say, there's nothing else to be done, no matter how hard and painful it may be.
Just before my wife left, a "friend" of hers told her almost the exact same thing. Her "friend" did not know about the affair. However, her hubby had just up & left a few years previous & she was devastated. Don't know how she could tell her it's "okay" to just leave your h of 19 years and 2 daughters (8 & 13).

I will offer her a divorce...
I wouldn't "offer" anything. Tell her you are going to file next week. Then get going with her on agreements for child support, house, etc.

You do what you can to the best of your ability (& even then a bit more) then you do what you have to do.

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

Spacecase

Remember that in some cases, like hope4future and tryin2dowhatsright, the divorce filing by their BS's, served as a wake up call and brought them out of their fence sitting.

Check the latest update thread by tryin2dowhatsright on the recovery board, titled I'M WW...GOING THRU RECOVERY. So there may be hope for your M even after you file for divorce.

Sorry for your pain space. You have certainly tried everything and it is painful obvious that your wife does not deserve someone as honorable and loving as you. That is when true love stepped in, and I am sorry that she has not seen this, or if she has, cares about it.

One thing you need to remember, and I think someone told me this here:

Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: new_dreamland ]</small>

((((Spacecase))))

I have been wondering how you were. As hard as it may be, please do not take this email to heart.

You know how difficult it can be to truly assess the situation as a 3rd party. To be honest, before I was in this situation, I would have gave the same advice, to me and my H.

If I was not a BS, and had a friend who was either a WS or BS, I would have have told them to get out. You see, until someone has been through an affair, from either side, it is not possible to give advice unless you are a certified marriage counselor (and some of them do not even know!!)

Of course your wifes friend is going to tell her these things, because she thinks this is what your wife wants to hear, also her friend may not be getting the whole story from your wife, just the bad parts.

It is probably very difficult for your wife to all of a sudden change direction and tell her friends all of the nice things you have been doing, etc.

If my husband would have listened to every piece of advice his mom gave him we would have been divorced long ago. she still thinks it is a bad idea for us to be back together, but you know what, we are doing well, with a few down points, and she does not have to live with us.

There are so many "well meaning" friends and family members who tell the WS or BS what they think is best or what they want to hear. Most of the time it is unsolicited advice.

Hang in there, okay??

GC

{{{{{{Spacey}}}}}}

You've gotten some great advice here... JL and Chris123 both expressed some of my thoughts.

You really are a good man, and I'm so sorry this is not turning out like we all hoped. (Of course, me being Miss Optimistic - or Miss Stubborn <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> - I still think things might turn better...)

Keep us posted, k?

Faith1

Space,

What a stunning e-mail to come across. Whew...
You are wise to pause and not act. I'm proud of you that you didn't REACT!! That took tremendous self-control and shows how you've grown through this MB process.

Please know that I mean this kindly but the e-mail was a gift of sorts. It apprears as if you have some new honest information re: your Wife's feelings & emotional state. I'm curious if your Wife or her friend can see that you've read the e-mail. I hope they can so that they are aware of your new knowledge.

I am not in a place to give you any advise. Your gut-instinct seems so right-on. Plan B has apparently given you clarity.

How painful this must be; I don't know what else to say other than you have grown so much through this process that you're by far a much better person having gone through this experience. Blessings to you - CSue

Friends,
My thanks for the support and advice; and good advice that I'll use!

I guess I was so down about this when I wrote it, that I came across as "definitive divorce", but in reality it was (and is) my intent to put divorce on the table, for the very first time, mind you, and see if perhaps the finality of it will have some magical effect.

Not that I'm very optimistic about that possible outcome, but stranger things have happened!

My interpretation of the friend's email response (and no, they will not know I saw it) is based on what my wife must have said to her. If, as it appears, my wife said something like if she stayed, it would be out of pity, then clearly this is not something that I want to entertain as the basis for a future marriage. I may be wrong in that interpretation, but it does appear that her friend confirms thier conversation rather than suggesting what she thinks...or am I wrong in that assumption?

In any case, there is still hope that after so long, and a reasonably good Plan A, and the most "benign" Plan B in the history of MB, it may be time to "tighten the screws" by putting divorce on the table...who knows...maybe it's the "incentive" she's needed to get off the fence.

Of course, this will all be done is the most loving fashion possible, and not before expressing my desire to let her make a decision. Something along the lines of what JL suggests seems appropriate. If it gets to divorce talk, I will try to convey to her that I am doing it out of respect for her wishes and for her happiness, rather than as "punishment", which it is not, in any case.

It is time, though, for me anyway, to have a more defined path for my future, and I certainly don't intend to leave things as they are any longer. My 3-month Plan B limit is coming up too, so it would have been time soon anyway...this just might have precipitated it by a few days.

There is still hope, I guess...we shall soon see.
Thanks to all!

I guess I was so down about this when I wrote it, that I came across as "definitive divorce", but in reality it was (and is) my intent to put divorce on the table, for the very first time, mind you,
You should NOT be the one to bring it up.

and see if perhaps the finality of it will have some magical effect.
unless you are ready ti actually do it.
Threatening, using divorce as a ploy to get a reaction fromthe ws is a very bad idea.

My 3-month Plan B limit is coming up too

[sarcasm mode on]Wow! Three months! How did you go so long?[sarcasm mode off]
So why only 3 months? The idea is to "just get over it" (in the words of the ws). If you aren't ready, then you can extend it, which is one reason you don't give a timeline to the ws.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris (CA123):
<strong>I guess I was so down about this when I wrote it, that I came across as "definitive divorce", but in reality it was (and is) my intent to put divorce on the table, for the very first time, mind you,
You should NOT be the one to bring it up.

and see if perhaps the finality of it will have some magical effect.
unless you are ready ti actually do it.
Threatening, using divorce as a ploy to get a reaction fromthe ws is a very bad idea.

My 3-month Plan B limit is coming up too

[sarcasm mode on]Wow! Three months! How did you go so long?[sarcasm mode off]
So why only 3 months? The idea is to "just get over it" (in the words of the ws). If you aren't ready, then you can extend it, which is one reason you don't give a timeline to the ws.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I have absolutely no issue at all with bringing divorce up. For some reason this seems to be a matter of "principle" for many people here, but for me it is not.

Did anything I said lead you to believe that this was being done as a "ploy"? If it did, it was not meant to. It is not a ploy. Not in my case. I'm stating the reality; this is as far as I go; are you coming or not? I'm certain of one thing; if things don't change, I don't want this marriage. An unfortunate by-product of all we learn here and elsewhere; as time goes on, we raise the bar on what marriage should be/needs to be.

You may feel like being "sarcastic" about the length of my Plan B, but after 1 year of Plan A before it, any more seems...too much. It's just a self-imposed deadline I'd set. My W knows nothing about it, and if SOMETHING had changed, or started to change, I probably would extend it. But nothing has changed; she's quite "happy" with the current arrangement. But I'm not going to live in a hotel all my life!

Well, I have absolutely no issue at all with bringing divorce up. For some reason this seems to be a matter of "principle" for many people here
It's more of a matter of don't need to discuss it unless you are going to do it.

Did anything I said lead you to believe that this was being done as a "ploy"?
You said,
and see if perhaps the finality of it will have some magical effect.
However, if it it a last attempt at finding out what she wants to do before you proceed then it seems okay. Just be prepared for her to say, "Wow, that's something I'll have to think about" or something to put off a decision.

You may feel like being "sarcastic" about the length of my Plan B, but after 1 year of Plan A before it, any more seems...too much.
It seems like a long time but one of the reasons for doing it is to give you/her distance from each other and understand how your life will be different without the other. Harley recommends 2 years (as a guideline). This is to make sure you are doing is for the right reasons - no love left, not for revenge or to get back at ws.

However, it's your call.

I personally would have major trouble with this turn of events after this amount of time. I offer you no advice SC .... I just know this ... you have tolerated much more than I could have. I am a "sh*t or get off the pot" kind of person. Patience is indeed a virtue. Where does reasonable patience end and dumb doggedness begin? I donno.

The thing is ... what do YOU want? This woman? This marriage?

What do you want?

Pep

Good questions, Pep, and here's the "low-down":

I, too, am a fish-or-cut-bait person normally, and I have stretched and extended my patience just about as far as it will go.

Secondly, if there had been SOME tangible change, some serious signal of impending recovery, or that she's starting down that path, well maybe I could extend the timeframe a bit more. You know; progress begets patience sort-a-thing. But ALL I have ever managed to get from her has been "I am not ready to answer your question" or "I don't know, what do you think?" as the ONLY answers to anything I have asked, so clearly, there's no end in sight for that little jig.

Thirdly, with every day that passes, it becomes less and less believable even if she DID say, "OK, I love you, let's fix this"...know what I mean? I mean some people here talk about not wnating to be 2nd choice...heck, at this rate, I don't even qualify for 5th choice!

and fourth, my nagging suspicion (which I've spoken about many times here, that there is "SOMETHING" that she is stalling for more time for, not just fence-sitting, but some event, circumstance, I have no idea what. It could be the OM's appeal, it could be some business she's doing for him, it could be any number of things, but in any event I have felt for a very long time that this is more than just about the A and the OM, like she's waiting for...something and trying to stall me as long as possible. And since I have played that game, maybe she feels she can just keep stretching it out more and more without making any kind of committment or giving me any kind of signal.

And last but not least, what do I want? I want a real wife. A wife who is committed, honest, wants to make us work, who is willing to do the work. And frankly, I no longer think she's it. What she has shown in 15 months of this purgatory gives me no indication or confidence that she CAN be that, or that she even wants to try. So what do I want? I want to either "wake up the comatose woman I married" who was quite capable of committing to these things, or I want out.

Maybe it's time to find out if my comatose wife is still in there somewhere...and if not...heck, I'm a decent looking guy, who can have some fun and find me another woman! Might even finish my book!

Appreciate the love, darlin'!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

At the risk of sounding non-MB-ish ... is it really a loving thing for the BS's to keep lowering integrity or behavior standards in order to accomodate WS's needs? If true love means wanting what is best for your loved one .... is it loving to endure continuous and relentless hemorrhage of integrity and/or standards?

Just thinking ....

Pep

Space,

You are so right about your standards of marriage being higher. I feel the same way. That is one promise I made to myself after d-day. Things will never be the same because I won't let them.

I bet if you look back prior to d-day; like me you realize that your needs weren't being met either. Mine sure weren't. Funny H has really had to struggle with making sure he meets my needs now too. It's been an interesting process because until MB; he just assumed my needs were the same as his; and according to him he was doing a good job meeting the needs he thought I had that mirrored his.

My point of all this is you deserve a much better relationship than what you've had. It's going to be hard to unlearn what we have through this process; and I certainly hope we don't! CSue