</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HCII; you are a very lucky man to have so close and wonderful a supporter as BigSis. I can "feel" the love there between you, and it is a joy to see! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhh, Yes......But I consider it blessed more than lucky. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But then again, I have SIX of them! Count 'em....PL, SE, DD, EC, CM, and the youngest RJ !!!! Sis is "SE" by the way. I am between her and DD.

I've been known to be a little greedy. But they are good at support. I may "share" a little bit of their love and support. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you look up "close" in the dictionary, there is a picture of my family there.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sorry...I had to threadjack a little.

Back to the topic, now.

Boo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>Space,

I know you probably have, but have you read the "Misapplication of Plan A" by Distressed thread?

If you haven't, it is very helpful with discovering pitfalls in implementing Harley's Plans. I bumped it up for you and others, just in case.

Lv,
Jo</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you, Jo. Yes. I've read it many times, and will read it again. There's always something there!

Well, I just had a convo with a friend of ours, SC, and I think I'm going 2 "hold my horses" a bit longer.

I think my W's negativity in our convo was in reaction 2 feeling like she was being put on the defensive by Greg Baer's CDs we were listening 2 while driving home from out of town last night. Greg Baer putting anyone on the defensive??? you might ask? Yep. Not much, but definitely on the defensive. Baer states, many times "when you're angry, you are wrong." My W gets angry a lot. She did acknowledge that his remark "anger is counterproductive" is correct, but feels that calling it "wrong" is being judgemental of the angry person. I can accept that. I can also accept, in retrospect, that her anger with me and her talk about "maybe we shouldn't be M'd" stuff was a reaction 2 feeling on the defensive.

At least it was HER that asked that we listen 2 those CDs on 2 occasions while we were on the road, not ME "educating her." And it really is benign, though wise stuff, 2. I don't think I'll ever get her 2 read any of the A-surviving books, and so I'm looking for self-improvement texts that aren't even remotely "accusatory" or one-sided, even if they're only perceived that way.

In any case, I don't think I'll start that "Give me DV, or give me Death!!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> thread after all (I guess that's not what I called it earlier, though!).

Hang limp, everybody! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

2ble post!!!!

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Space,
I don't have any advice for you but I think about you often and still pray for you every day. I wish I had the "magic bullet" but it usually doesn't exist. I think K came the closest to how I feel about your case. It gets to the point where it's hard to believe it when people are saying " you never know, it might still work."

I don't think your problem is so much that you can't continue, it's that you don't have hope that it will change anything, so why not get things over with.
I agree with K - you are not finished yet. I can understand not wanting to live in a motel forever, I would get tired of pizza and twinkies too. If you lived closer, I would invite you over more often.

Anyway, lots of us are rooting for you, even if we don't say it very often.

SS

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

2long,
Don't scare me like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It affected me so bad that I can't even think of any way to insult you properly.
My hands are still shaking, I can hardly type.
SS

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

ss:

Hey, sorry about that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I've thought a lot about the convo and my reaction 2 it, and my W's reaction 2 it, and realized that it's simply one of those times when we feel safe for a bit, at least initially, about talking about the A and RM and the past and the fu2re... ...and then our fears bubble up 2 the surface and ruin our moods. At least mine didn't get ruined until hours later, whereas my W was probably feeling pretty crummy during the convo. I felt like many of the times before when we'd had a serious talk, only 2 realize that our "recovery" wasn't as far along as I had been leading myself 2 believe. So, recognizing that now has helped calm me down considerably.

I'm still an optimist in the overal view and about the long term, but my optimism is centered around my faith that this "work" I'm doing will benefit me and my family, whether it's intact or not. I think the M will survive, but it might not, and I'm not going 2 worry 2 much about that right now. My main focus is going 2 continue 2 be on showing my W that I love her unconditionally, and I can do that whether we stay M'd or DV.

What about her? Well, she's insisting that she should be able 2 continue working with RM 2 compile "comparable data" for the next couple of projects at work, which could last a year or more. At the same time, she's "trying" 2 break off contact and give our M a chance, plus she's told me that RM is trying 2 reconcile with his W (who is insisting that they never see or speak 2 each other for the rest of their lives - I LIKE her!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). My W is still "dehumanizing" Mrs Meat (probably 2 avoid feeling guilt for destroying THEIR family), and she made several other fog statements during the convo that indicate 2 me that we've got a ways 2 go, still.

I'm going 2 let the dust settle from the latest convo (which was followed by considerable hugging and closeness in the last 2ple of days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) before I bring up any boundary issues again, but I do have them. Chief among those is that I want her 2 know that I will not promise 2 "wait" for her 2 finish these next projects and get her "comparable data" from RM (because the last project was several months past the deadline before being finally "completed", and RM STILL has yet 2 return all the samples he worked on). I'm sorry, but she hates this job and losing the chance at comparable data for the next projects is just 2 damned bad. A consequence of her A that she'll have 2 accept at some point.

So, I'm not going 2 promise 2 wait, 4ever, but for now I can afford 2 for a while longer, so I will (it FEELS like I can't wait a year, and maybe I can't, but I don't know that for sure). I'll also clarify that boundary soon, maybe periodically, but without LBing. It's really her decision. All of it, the work, the contact, even the A. I'll hold on until all of my "respect bank" is completely empty (because I don't intend 2 let my love for her decline). If I get 2 that point, I'll file for DV. But that would "require" no real progress and no willingness 2 compromise along the way, and my W is at least moving in the right direction, thought-wise. And It'll all be hunky dory so long as RM is out of our lives at least until the sun leaves the Main Sequence and swells in2 a Red Giant, swallowing up the inner planets (including Earth) along the way... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ November 08, 2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

SAD FWD E-mail and ask why can't you be this honest with me. [911last date]

911lastdate:

?????

I can't make sense of your post. Care 2 elaborate?

And It'll all be hunky dory so long as RM is out of our lives at least until the sun leaves the Main Sequence and swells in2 a Red Giant, swallowing up the inner planets (including Earth) along the way...

Thats pretty short term if we really do have eternal souls, sure you don't want to make it longer?

( I wondered if I would recover, looks like I will)

SS

SS:

Okay, how about when protons decay and there's "nothing" left of the Universe? If they do at all (never been observed, just predicted) protons have a half life on the order of 10^31 years.

Is that long enough? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long:
I think 911 is speaking about Spacecase's mail from W's friend to his W. I think 911 is recommending forewarding mail to Spaces's W and asking why his W can't be honest and tell him her thoughts and feelings.

You got me on the proton thing, I'll have to think on that one. Now what exactly are protons?
Just kidding.
SS
Too bad my friend Albert died, I would have him come up with something for you. Lets see, I think he did believe in eternal souls, perhaps he could still be contacted?

Space,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ONLY problem I have is in my ability, from a financial and practical standpoint, to improve my own living conditions while not damaging my children's (living with her), in order to maintain a longer Plan B, such as it is.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The practical always gets in the way. I would not attempt to 'improve' your living conditions during Plan B (economically, at least). You're doing this to get by. You may need to renegotiate financial arrangements so your wife picks up more of the slack, but other than finding a reasonable apartment for a 6-12 month lease, I don't see a whole lot else you'll be able to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And the only other point I'd make, is to say that when one does not see much (or ANY) "progress" on the part of the S to reach even the "minimum" requirements (as you described them) for attempting recovery...then what? Indefinite Plan B?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of the deal about Plan B is that you're not supposed to see anything. It's about protecting you. I was in a less-than-perfect Plan B. I was over at our house a couple times a week (my wife would leave)---the place was straightened up and way cleaner than it ever had been when I was living there (and I always felt that I did 70% of the housework too... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) I'd think to myself that maybe they would be better off without me---at least the place would be cleaner...

It was all part of the fantasy, the charade. None of it was true---and I was in a situation to not let my wife's "contact" hurt me too much. If you can't handle the input that you're getting in your current implementation of Plan B, then you need to have less (as in NO) contact. The next time you talk to your wife is when she's decided that she'd like to make a go of the marriage. You don't want to listen to the "why", or the "tone" of how that message is delivered---you just need to agree on the "how" of recovery.

Your plan B will not be indefinite. Eventually, you'll just say "enough". Not in passionate anger, but in a resigned way that indicates you've pretty much done all the mourning you need to do for your marriage. Then you'll file for divorce because you're ready. Not because you want to force your wife into reconcilliation (God forbid if she does finally come through at that point---because you won't want to play that game). If I were you, I'd give your Plan B at least six solid months of no contact at all. If you've been having a good deal of contact now, you might want to send a follow-up letter to her stating your reasons for cutting this off.

As always, I'd advise running this by Steve...

Thanks everyone for your love, and good advice.

It's late, I just got in from a Radical Forgiveness seminar I'm attending this weekend, but I thought I owed the forum an update on lunch with my W today.

It was interesting. Very nice, very friendly, very frank, no LBs from anyone. She says there is no longer a R with the OM, nor with any other man, which was nice to hear, but I have no real way of confirming this. It did sound sincere.
She also said she would like to "fall in love with you [me] again." which was very encouraging, and I'd never heard that before.
I said, I felt the same, and that I felt we should find a way to put aside as much of the "anger, resentment, etc" so that we could be together and commit to working on the R, otherwise, we weren't just going to "wake up one day in love with each other again", and that this is what I was looking for; the minimum conditions for getting back together again, and a commitment to work on the R.
She also said that she still needed time, and when I asked what for, she said that it was because she wasn't sure we COULD fall in love again, or that it COULD work, so she wanted more time.
I said that I understood, but that the reality was that this was never going to happen until we tried. There are no guarantees, and no way to be sure ahead of time whether we could fall in love again, except by trying.
I also told her that we had to think about this, before the "practical realities of life" start making decisions for us. We discussed what this meant, keeping two homes, the Texas laws around separation (non-existent), etc.
All in all a positive meeting, and, I think, one in which several important things were cleared up, discussed, and more importantly, it allowed for pleasant, non-confrontational discussion, and I felt it was much more honest and frank that we've had in a very long time.
Appreciate your impressions...thanks! g'nite!

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hi Cadet,

Hadn't heard from you in awhile and had to check in. You sound like you are in a stronger place but the WS is still swinging the pendelum.

So my dear cadet, move cautiously. She still seems unsure. When my Ws told me the same thing, I gave those words back to him and said 'yea, I need to learn to love u 2!'. That threw him for a loop. Made him wonder even to this day, if I would throw his hiney out in a NY second. You know what? I would. He knows it.

So the BS has to excercise patience. Now more than ever. Don't have look like you are waiting just be patient. Don't analyze every word and action.......if she really wants to come back, you will see her efforts not just her words.

This time puts great stress on the BS. But you can give some of it to the WS. It is good to share!!!!

take care,
L.

take care,
L.

Well...that's both good news and not so great news... On the one hand it sounds like she realizes that "in love" isn't something chemical or supernatural...it's created in by having a loving environment where both people meet each others needs. But on the the other hand she's still buying for more time...my guess is she thinks things will get clearer for her somehow. They won't. It takes a leap of faith and a willingness to really put some effort into it, even if it doesn't feel safe or good or comfortable right away.

It's possible things might have to get really uncomfortable for her before she's willing to drop her pride, ego and resentment enough to do that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooMuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Spacecase

Remember that in some cases, like hope4future and tryin2dowhatsright, the divorce filing by their BS's, served as a wake up call and brought them out of their fence sitting.

Check the latest update thread by tryin2dowhatsright on the recovery board, titled I'M WW...GOING THRU RECOVERY. So there may be hope for your M even after you file for divorce.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Space,
First, It is good to hear from you & to know that you are hangin in there! I am trying to limit my time here, so I have not read all of this thread (please forgive!), but TooMuchCoffee's point here is one that I personally believe is true in certain cases. James DObson's book, "Love Must Be Tough" I believe supports this premise in certain ways.
The email from your W's friend does sound bad in terms of what would be natural to assume you w was saying, based on the reply.
It sounded to me your W waas doing some "justifying" of her actions or motives or potenial actions -- I.E. Independent of her feelings for the OP! - If she had an idea you & her were not going to work out, for whatever reason (like she may wonder why you would stick with her, for example!), she is beginnig to offer justifications, rationalization, so she doe not look so bad, if & when it happens.
I don't have any personal experience, but in Dobson's book, he sites examples where the WS is professing hatred toward the BS & then when it is apparrent the BS is not going to tolerate these things & is prepared to leave & perhaps takes the first steps to leave, the WS makes a complete turn about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Of course, there are no guarantees, no matter what you try. It sounds like you have done a good job of "detaching" and are emotionally prepared for the worst, ... as best you can! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
It is interesting, I heard someone speak of a session with Steve & they said he spoke of the fact that many guys are a domninant "taker" (my paraphase!)-- I happened to think it is also gals in many cases, like my own W, for example. But when, what I shall charactorise as the naturally inclined "taker" gets his /or her way, they tend to take more -- My intrpretation is that the more we give (to certain, dominant "taker" types), the more they take! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I wonder if the they (WS)have a mindset at times, that as long as we appear to be totally satisfied to keep giving & giving, no matter how badly they treat us, we keep coming back with this "giver" atttitude, what incentive to do they have to change?!!
This was described on a thread started by "starfish" on the emotional needs board --
"Harley on a halfshell" -- You have 4 months experience with Steve - perhpas you have good feel for this dynamic, based on your experince with the Steve!!
I mention this because I don't recall the details of your plan B & how much Non-contact there was - if she was able to truely feel what it was like w/o you? I assume Steve worked with you on this.
On the other hand, if you don't really have a burnig desire to "move on" and don't feel too victimized by her lack of response -- If you are protecting yourself with good boundaries -detaching with love -- and she knows that you are contemplating moving on -- So you are not "enabling" her to have her cake & it too kind of style (as is the case with so many WS!), then perhaps it would not hurt to "veg-out" for a while longer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
If you decide to not serve D papers, I believe some discussion or letter addressing or re-inforcing the fact that you are nearing your limits and you may in fact not always be there waiting for her would be order!
Sorry if this is a total duplication of what you have heard.
Best wishes for you, man!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Peace ...

<small>[ November 09, 2002, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Hurrian Hoosier ]</small>

yes HE should ask the wife to be this honest with him.THEN some things can come to a head and they may find the path to take. it may not be the one he want! but he'll have a place to stand and or start from.[my typing skills are poor at best] move slowly.have a nice day all. got mark soccer fields.911last date

<small>[ November 10, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: 911lastdate ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong>Hi Cadet,

Hadn't heard from you in awhile and had to check in. You sound like you are in a stronger place but the WS is still swinging the pendelum.

So my dear cadet, move cautiously. She still seems unsure. When my Ws told me the same thing, I gave those words back to him and said 'yea, I need to learn to love u 2!'. That threw him for a loop. Made him wonder even to this day, if I would throw his hiney out in a NY second. You know what? I would. He knows it.

So the BS has to excercise patience. Now more than ever. Don't have look like you are waiting just be patient. Don't analyze every word and action.......if she really wants to come back, you will see her efforts not just her words.

This time puts great stress on the BS. But you can give some of it to the WS. It is good to share!!!!

take care,
L.

take care,
L.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, O.
I believe you are right. Up until now, apart from not living in the same home, she hasn't REALLY gotten and serious signal that I'm on my way out of the R.
I need to think about this and see if/how I can transmit that message.
In a conversation we had about her car, I did let her know that it bothered me that she ONLY called when she wanted something, and she took it OK. Told me later that I was right about that.

H4F & HH:
Thanks for your posts. Indeed, I have felt all along that she is definitely in a hard-core "taker" mode; has been from the start. In fact, probably her main justification for all of this has been that she feels she has always given and now it's her turn.
And I know that I certainly have played into that since apart from some boundaries, the main one being leaving, (but after a very long time of living with the active affair) I have pretty much "been there" for what she has needed/wanted without asking for much in return.
I have to think about this some more.