How long before we finally admit our differences ARE irreconcilable?

Does it matter (in terms of marital survival)?

Frankly, we are different from our spouses. The Harley's program can't change that. No amount of MB'ing is going to meld us into one entity - we are, at best, two individuals traveling down the same path. I suspect that the Harleys are encouraging us to walk down the same path as much as possible - in order to end up together.

At what point do we decide to let our spouse wander off in their own direction, without us? At what point does their path differ so much from ours that we can no longer find common ground? And, if we can't find common ground, does that mean the marriage has to end?

The discerning GQII'er will notice a zillion questions in this post. It's meant to generate a discussion (and also to help me try to clarify what I've been feeling lately.)

For those wondering... I've been in a situation for years now where I can list many reasons why I feel justified to leave. I can also find many reasons to stay. I suspect that the reasons to stay are alawys going to win out over the push to flee... probably heavily tied up in the way I am... others may not make the same choice... I'm interested in having this discussion.

Jeffers

Hi Jeffers,

Howz my beer buddy? Ooops better clarify that - LOL!!

NOTE: Jeffers was the one to try to put a nice description of PBR. Of course he wants it to mean Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer but I had other uses better adapted to the OW - LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well Jeffers as usual you raise some of the deep kinda questions that kept us up all night. Remember those looooong posts by SNL? O yea and me too!!!

Irreconciable differences?? I believe there are. Another question is if we were to do it all over again, would we have married our spouses?

Ooooohh these are too hard to answer all in one night especially since it is so close to midnight out here in CA.

Hm...... If I knew then what I suffered now, the answer would be no. Then again which one of us ever expected to get married for worse? ok, it comes with the 'unexpected things in life'.

I think the real question is: when the kids are all grown and out of the house....... really out..... will be still be together? I wonder about that. Mine is still quite young but that day will come soon enough. Hm......

Now I have been working everyday for 4 weeks straight..... getting kinda punchy here and my tolerance level is quite low. I think I had better sleep on your question and come back later.

Good night.
L.
ps: Good to hear from you.

jeffers,

Nice to see you post again ... I do not beleive in "Irreconcilable diff.", no such thing in M !. There is only "unwilling to reconcile" !. If SO is "willing" to give 4 gifts of love to each other, then any diff. could be reconcile w/ POJA w/o taxing LB$.

I will get to it again in the morning ... it is not that I have to work 4 weeks straight like Orchid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> but I don't have to work for the past 2 months (laid off) and become real night owl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

-rh-

Hi Jeff.

Similar to redhat, I believe "irreconcilable differences" is a euphemism for "too stubborn to compromise" or "too unwilling to change."

Let's face it - all of us are different from each other so there are gonna be differences and we accept most of them or make changes to minimize the differences or their impacts. Common sense.

Granted, there are going to be things that are uncompromisable - "she was a pathological liar and I wasn't." Seems these are usually associated with behaviors rather than "hard wired" or unchangeable things such as race, culture, or height.

Maybe this is too simplistic to further this discussion.

Jeffers -- I rarely post in GQII, but your question got my brain whirling a bit. So, let me give it a shot:

I have to agree with the others that citing "irreconcilable differences" is really a kind of shorthand for "we/I are/am a selfish [censored]/***** unwilling to compromise, yield or make even the slightest change in my personality for the benefit of the other person in my life."

That said, if you're not willing to reconcile your differences, then yeah, there's a reason to split. However, most successful marriages I've seen don't really reconcile any differences. They celebrate the differences, and each partner uses those qualities to fuel the uniqueness of the relationship.

Well Orchid I'm glad you can sorta laugh about PBR now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... and I was actually thinking about SnL when I got off on this thought.

I'm not sure it's fair to ask for a "do over" when all this prior knowledge. Imagine being 20 again and knowing what you know now-- would you be interested in any of the clueless 20-somethings you were hanging around with?

Without the prior knowledge I'm not sure any other path would've had a different outcome quality-of-life wise. Then again, I really like my W and think she's a nice person - I don't have any hurtful actions to somehow rationalize. I've occasionally thought about what my life might look like with other choices, but I've never felt cheated or anything like that - mostly just curious.

You put your finger on the scenario I wonder about - what happens when the kids are gone. My oldest is now a junior in HS, youngest in 4th grade. I sometimes think without them around we'll have no reason at all to talk to each other, at least that's how I feel on down days- like roomates.

Redhat,

Yeah, I noticed that you were having job problems. This is a tough time to be looking, supposedly things are picking up. Too bad we don't get to choose the best times for these things to happen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I think you got it right, the 4 gifts of love are way more important than resolving differences. I think the Harleys state that too, that love can thrive even in the presence of conflict.

Reconcile has two meanings: to remove differences OR to accept them. POJA seems to work on the first. Schnarch might suggest that acceptance is the way toward personal growth for both partners.

Dave,

Simplistic? I don't know... don't the differences you hang onto in the presence of your partner define who you are? Of course, I'm not sure what kind of statement your xW was making other than an absence of rational thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Chorus,

I had a few more comments to make but I've run out of time... I'll have to come back to this. Ever notice that mostly differences only become irreconcilable the instant an OP comes into play, usually not one moment before.

Jeffers

Ummm Jeffers... is there an OP lurking about? <Irreconcilable differences come into play when there's an OP in the picture?>

Are you spending your 15+ hours a week w/ your wife? I think that's how you find common ground, bud!

I used to NOT be able to picture H and I together in our golden years... but the picture is coming in to focus more and more... especially as he opens up to me more and more about his fears and dreams...

How much do you open up to your wife? about what's really going on in Jeffers head? and how much to you ask her about what's going on in hers? It's that being 'transparent' w/ the other that creates those bonds and threads and intimacy... "Radical Honesty" ya' know?

Something in us keeps us from really loving... keeps us in our deep, dark forest... on our computers... in our workrooms... living side-by-side, but not really interacting...

I think that's our 'crucible'.... to find out WHY we hide from those we love...

Hugs to you Jeffers...

Cali

I think my perfectionist tendencies are doing me in here. I'm not sure what I really wanted to say and I don't like letting out half-baked thoughts. I think that's my problem with my W too, I can't see the perfect totally thought-out way to approach her so I don't try. I have that problem with these posts.

I live in an OPless world. I guess I'm lamenting the idea that problems don't get addressed until it's nearly too late. Schnarch also commented on this in both of his books. It's the way "we" are. I guess my feeling is that I'll never have the illusion of something better so I have to figure out how to improve what I have without external influences.

How many times have we seen the story here: "If only he/she had said something I would've had the chance to respond/change. He/she didn't have to xxxx." Yeah, right. I think most of us ONLY respond when we're hit over the head (a point Schnarch makes.)

I think W and I are a perfect match. We chose each other because we didn't push into each other's emotional space. Those are hard habits to overcome.

I pretty much gave up trying to push anything last semester. We're around each other a lot but, in my opinion, she's not available much of the time. I quit trying to force her to pay attention to me- I'd always resent her when she didn't. It's now mostly up to her ... little attention is forthcoming but I don't resent it as much. I spent 1-2 nights every week at my office working on things I've neglected the last 2 years. I decided that I'd rather accomplish something with my time than sit next to her and build resentment.

So, as you might imagine we were getting a little distant. The holidays were not as bad as they usually are, but I guess I had lower expectations (in terms of togetherness.) We did dinner and a movie for our anniversery (22!)- for once it was her idea. Dinner was a bit awkward- probably the longest we'd been together for months.

I know this is pretty jumbled, but if I go back and try to edit it I probably won't send it. Hope it makes some kinda sense.

Jeffers

^^^^^
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So Jeffers, where do you think you both stand in the EN dept?

L.

soo... jeffers... what's your two-choice dilemma?

status quo... be apathetic? bored? disconnected?
start talking... don't avoid conflict... and???

Check out article or book by Gladwell "Tipping Point." What will be your tipping point? I wonder what was Hs tipping point into the affair. What was different that year, @ that time? His age? My illness? HER?

We live in pain until it is too painful NOT to change.

Cali

Orchid,

A very relevant question.

If I compare to a year ago, things are much better. I don't think she makes much of a conscious effort to meet any of my ENs... but she does meet most of them, some of the time, because, well I guess that's just the way she is. She's certainly capable of meeting my ENs, but does most of it by accident lately.
If I shower her with affection, she sometimes accepts it, and that makes me feel good (reflected affection?).

By her admission I was doing a good job meeting her ENs 2 years ago - all except honesty and openess (her #1). I work at them so I think I'm doing just as well now. She gives every indication of being happy and content- always kisses me on the way to bed (absense was an indicator of distance/displeasure in the past)... I'm more apt to sneak off than she is. Our lives are reasonably "pleasant" right now.

but... a phrase comes to mind that I keep thinking about in this situation:

The better is the enemy of the good

The relationship we have is "good". How bad should I feel because it isn't "better"? I've always been the pursuer in our marriage... because of that I never feel "chosen". The problem is, I don't think there's a darned thing I can do to make anything different happen in that respect. If I ask for it I'll doubt the sincerity. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Did I answer your question?

Jeffers

Hi Cali <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I wonder continuously- What is my dilemma? Why does this quest for the "better" bother me so?

I don't think I'm in a bad marriage- to the contrary, I think I have a good one, or maybe I'm convinced the potential is there. A year ago I was in the pits... nothing now compares even remotely to that. I'm back to being a person I recognize- and like.

I want a tipping point! I think that's what this thread is really about (how'd you know that?) But, I want an external one so I don't have to be fully responsible for the results.

We live in pain until it is too painful NOT to change.

Compared to last year what I'm feeling now can be quantified as "discomfort" at best. I know that Schnarch says that people will spontaneously try something different only when the pain becomes too great. In my case I probably won't get to that point, so I have to consciously choose to do something. I don't see where the path leads... it just goes off a cliff to, what? My perfectionist tendencies need to know how to force a good outcome. I'm afraid to do the "leap of faith." Ya know, the faith that I really know who she is and that we'll end up closer, rather than farther apart.

She says she wants openness, but when I give her a taste she returns defensiveness, or ridicule. Schnarch claims no one truly invites openess or makes it easy cuz there's an implicit bargain that they have to reciprocate ("I will if you will"). I've gotten to the point where I don't respond to the defensiveness anymore, but I still withdraw at that point rather than try to move further. How do you do openness in baby steps?

The Gladwell stuff looks awesome - I hope our library has a copy of the book. The NY Times articles I read were fascinating. As always, your reading recs amazing.

Jeffers

Hi Jeffers--

Ya know, I don't think "irreconcilable differences" are necessarily a bad thing. My H & I are quite compatible in some ways, and quite different in others.

We've been thru times when the differences bugged the heck out of us, and now have reached a point of accepting each other's differences. Some we accept with pleasure (those that are different but complementary), some with only tolerance (those that really feel incompatible). IMHO, you cannot be truly intimate with someone unless you do get to the point of accepting that your spouse IS different from you, and yet loving them anyways.

I must say, I do wish H was more into both openness & conversation. But...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You put your finger on the scenario I wonder about - what happens when the kids are gone. My oldest is now a junior in HS, youngest in 4th grade. I sometimes think without them around we'll have no reason at all to talk to each other, at least that's how I feel on down days- like roomates. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ours span Jr, in HS to 5th grade. With college for oldest practically breathing down our neck, this is a thought I have too. Half the time it scares me, half the time it delights me to think of extended time sans kids.

The Gladwell info does look interesting...think I will look for it too.

Cheers--

Kathi

<small>[ January 19, 2003, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Reading more and more books, the differences you talk about, seem to be fantasy. You say you have a wonderful wife. You Love HER? You give her affection, she is responding, which is an EN on your part. She is responding, cause she is wanting your affeection.

You two have a long term marriage. You two loved each other at the altar. You two decided to have children together. You would of not married someone you didn't want to spend time with, have children with, do things with, plan life iwth, you would of never married. Look at your beautiful loving wife, look at your great children, this marriage can work. I believe you are just getting the midlife crisis itch, and wanting to fantasize. My WH did the same, and it has torn this family apart, literally into pieces. It has torn my heart, and I am with my honesty saying that I am going in circles.

Look deeply into your wifes eyes, and say I Love You! Pray, show your affection. If you want to take time to talk, make a date on the calendar. Say could we have this amount of time to talk about certain matters. That is a suggestion that is needed for all couples to do. But each has to agree on a time slot, or if it is an emergency, that is different.

I remember my husband and I talking for hours and hours. Talk about everything, and listening to each other. You two probably did the same. But you know each others families, you know about her past, she about your past. When a Wayward spouse finds someone new, of course, they have new families to learn about, what they did in High School, their past, their hopes, their dreams. This isall new and of course it is fantasizing.

You made vows also. Just like my WH, made vows and doesn't believe in the vows he made. Please think about what you are saying, and how you are syaing, it. Don't hurt your wife like Orchid and I have been hurt. Don't break your family apart, like mine is being torn apart. I can tell you, that there are many days that I just can't believe my husband has done all that he has done.

You have a beautiful wife, show her, care for her, and the love will grow. Look at Cali, she said it is getting better and better everyday. I know you will see the light. I wish my WH would of, but he has left me to bear the pain of my heart split. and bleeding.