I will try to keep this short, but I am typically unable to do so.

My wife and I have been together for 12 years and married for 8+. During the course of our marriage (all but 4 months) we have had a college buddy of mine living in our basement. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is happening sexually with him and my wife- he is a friend/brother to the both of us and a sitter for our dogs when we are gone as we don't have any kids. I have asked him to move out and he did so over the weekend, I feel his presence created a "brother/sister" or "roommate" relationship with my wife vs. us being an intimate couple. My wife and I never fight, no skeletons in the closet, abuse of any kind, etc. Pretty much your picture perfect couple to those who know us. We are the best of friends, get along great with each others families, etc. Additionally, we have zero financial problems as we both make very high incomes. We have everything that we need from a material standpoint and have zero debt besides our house payment. The story sounds good so far....

But on October 19th I found out my wife was/is having an affair. She moved out on the 25th of October into her own place a couple of miles away. We have not seen each other since Nov. 2, when we speak on the phone she is cold and fairly venomous to me. We haven't spoken more than a few times, the last being early December. However, we are able to e-mail each other and she is cordial if not fairly positive with her responses. The problem is she refuses joint counseling, and is still seeing the other guy. She is going to counseling for herself, but will not make any promises beyond "we'll see" or "maybe" for counseling between she and I. I do get occasional "buying" signals like when she mentions possibly moving into a new house together for a fresh start if we work things out or "maybe we can try counseling in a couple of months". But at the same time, she tells me her feelings have not changed over the last couple of months one way or the other.

I have tried everything over the course of the last two months. I have written numerous love letters, she certainly knows how I feel. I have asked her to stop seeing the other person to no avail. I have now taken to backing off and giving her all the space that she needs. I don't want to pressure her into a decision to divorce me. And she says that the best she can give me right now is e-mail, seeing or speaking to me she is "unable to handle". But she also insists that she does not want a divorce at this time.

As for the other guy, he is single, no kids, and lives with his mother. She says he is a "nice guy", but admits that they do not discuss the future together. She doesn't see him as a potential husband, just someone she enjoy spending time with and having fun. He is aware that she has not asked me for a divorce, nor is he pressuring her to do so. By my best guesstimate, they have been seeing each other since about mid-July. We are both white (35 & 33), he is black (34) and would be "unacceptable" to her father (his race doesn't bother me)- which I believe is part of the problem. I believe she is rebelling to a certain extent against her father and myself as she considers us to be similar individuals (strong personality, controlling, successful, etc.). She is indecisive by nature, I fear that she simply will never give him up and we will not have a chance at reconciliation.

It has taken us two months, but through e-mail and counseling separately we have discovered the problem in our marriage. When my wife left, she gave the typical "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" statement that we all receive. Additionally, she has told me she has passion for the other person and is not attracted to me but is to him. Through our e-mailing the problem we have discovered is the "spark" has left our marriage and probably did so 1-2 years ago. She speaks of a lack of intimacy, passion, communication, and unconditional love. I believe that all of these are not atypical of a standard marriage, people have their ups and downs and work through problems together. She agrees, but doesn't know if that is possible in our situation. She believes that she can figure things out alone, but doesn't want to give up the other guy in this process. It is killing me inside to say the least.

My question of course is what do I do at this point? Is my marriage over? She is going to contact me at the end of January to "see where we are at". I believe in my heart that if I could get her to counseling or even the Marriage Builders weekend that we could still turn things around. She does admit to still loving me, but the in-love part and the other man are both very problematic at this point. How much longer do I hold on and what is my next move if any? I have not and will not date others as I am committed to my wife. I do believe I can get through an affair and have my marriage be bigger and better than ever. But it takes two to tango and only one of us is willing to dance at this point.

Help........

My best advice right now is READ!!! Read everything there is to read on this sight, then read it again. When you're done with that, buy the books starting with Surviving and Affair (SAA). His Needs Her Needs is good also. I usually leave the rest of the advice up to the GWO's (Great Wise One's). Good luck Sad.

MTD

Hello, sadinaz:

Sorry to hear your story, but glad you found this place!

After reading your introductory post, I want to ask a few questions. It's clear you are "swimming" in a confusion of thoughts/feelings/emotions. Very typical. Welcome to the world of infidelity!

First of all, how did you find this site? I know for myself, I found it when I read somewhere the enticing title "Can Just One Partner Save a Marriage? YES!" or something to that effect. So, to start with, I'll answer your last question first. YES!! One person can save a marriage.

Moving on to some of your other questions, "how long..." - the answer is hang on! It could take 1-2 years! Yes, you read right! Initially I asked you how you found this site. My next question is to ask if you read all the concepts on this site. They are in the "Concepts" section. That can be found by clicking on the link to it at the top of this page. Many of the questions you ask are answered clearly in those concepts pages.

As far as what you should be doing now. The short answer is Plan A. Plan A is for YOU. It's your time (while you are alone) to work on YOU. Quit writing love letters to your W. This "feels" to the WS like pressure. You don't want to pressure her. It only makes the WS run further away.

Figure out what EN's of your W you were not meeting. I did this by answering the EN Questionnaire as if I were my WH. Then, work on fixing these about yourself. Concentrate on YOU. You can do nothing about her behavior or thoughts at this point. You know that now. There's no point in continuing to beg, ask or plead for her to come home. It's not going to happen at this point. Reading about the "Anatomy of an A" concept (something similar to that title) will explain it all better than I can.

There are lots of good folks here who can help you. I'm sure many will come along to answer any more questions you might have. Keep posting and we're here to help you through this.

God Bless,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lupolady:
<strong>Hello, sadinaz:

Sorry to hear your story, but glad you found this place!

After reading your introductory post, I want to ask a few questions. It's clear you are "swimming" in a confusion of thoughts/feelings/emotions. Very typical. Welcome to the world of infidelity!

First of all, how did you find this site? I know for myself, I found it when I read somewhere the enticing title "Can Just One Partner Save a Marriage? YES!" or something to that effect. So, to start with, I'll answer your last question first. YES!! One person can save a marriage.

Moving on to some of your other questions, "how long..." - the answer is hang on! It could take 1-2 years! Yes, you read right! Initially I asked you how you found this site. My next question is to ask if you read all the concepts on this site. They are in the "Concepts" section. That can be found by clicking on the link to it at the top of this page. Many of the questions you ask are answered clearly in those concepts pages.

As far as what you should be doing now. The short answer is Plan A. Plan A is for YOU. It's your time (while you are alone) to work on YOU. Quit writing love letters to your W. This "feels" to the WS like pressure. You don't want to pressure her. It only makes the WS run further away.

Figure out what EN's of your W you were not meeting. I did this by answering the EN Questionnaire as if I were my WH. Then, work on fixing these about yourself. Concentrate on YOU. You can do nothing about her behavior or thoughts at this point. You know that now. There's no point in continuing to beg, ask or plead for her to come home. It's not going to happen at this point. Reading about the "Anatomy of an A" concept (something similar to that title) will explain it all better than I can.

There are lots of good folks here who can help you. I'm sure many will come along to answer any more questions you might have. Keep posting and we're here to help you through this.

God Bless,</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lupo:

I found the site through a couple of different means. I have read the book "Surviving and Affair" and found it very informative. I also was referred to the site by another (affairs-help.com).

It's funny what you post about the love letters, my wife said the EXACT SAME THING to me a few days ago about the pressure she feels when she reads them. I will not do that again, I can't afford to push her further away.

I am not a patient person by nature, it has taken everything inside of me to back away from her. I will not ever do anything to myself or the OM as I have promised from day one. I am deeply religious and strongly believe in the power of prayer- I am doing so frequently each day.

I love her and miss her, I am very lonely but will not allow myself to date others and confuse the situation. I am working on myself and am trying not to think about her, but I just wish we could get to the point of talking or even seeing each other casually.

I do have a question- is it acceptable to go to joint counseling if your spouse has not broken things off with the OM? I don't know if that would be of any benefit or not, I am thinking it could go either way. What have others thought or experienced on this subject?.......

Good Morning Sardinaz,

Your post struck such a chord with me. "nice guy", eeewww I had to listen to my husband tell me before the actual truth of the Affair was revealed that this woman was a "nice person"

If there was anything I remebered from my school days is that Nice originally meant foolish or stupid. Its source being Latin, nescius simply meaning ignorant.

I took a great deal of heart in that, that woman can be as nice as she wanted, the original meaning was going to come out in the end.And it did.

Other than that tid bit of info I am dreadfully sorry you are going through this. Just please note that there is hope to be found, all is not lost. There are great people here with great advice and support.

I wish you well ,take care.

Sadinaz --

First, welcome to MB. I know you're really hurting with this and you've come to a good place to get some help.

No, your marriage is not over. While it may seem to you that it might be at this point, the reality is that it is still a marriage but that it has been wounded severely. What you're feeling about its prospects is normal and common. Seems hopeless but it isn't; not by a long shot.

From her statements to you, it's obvious that she's deep in The Fog. This Fog literally prevents the WS from thinking, talking, or acting rationally or even kindly. You need to know what you're up against so find and read WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses elsewhere on the site. It's often in the Just Found Out Forum.

"Maybe's" and "we'll see's" are standard Fog-Speak, as is the "I love you but I'm not in love with you." The standard operative for you has got to be: Take with caution and skepticism everything your wife says and does. Don't take anything she says at face value and don't expect her to make sense. Unfortunately, she's no longer your friend; she's your adversary and you have to regard her as such. The aliens have landed.

Something you said raised a red flag: "...she is rebelling to a certain extent against her father and myself as she considers us to be similar individuals (strong personality, controlling, successful, etc.)." -- that "controlling" part worries me. Can you help me with that? Often with indecisive people, a spouse with a strong personality is perceived as being controlling and sometimes in fact is.

All the things that your W is telling you are very typical and usual; nothing out of the ordinary here. Nonetheless, it doesn't make your pain any easier to bear. Read everything you can on this site, especially the articles about A's on the home page. Get into counseling for yourself whether or not your W does. This thing needs to play itself out for as long as it takes, but meanwhile you can be working on you. Read also about the Plan A approach; could be the way you'll want to go.

Hang in there and please post again. We're here for you.

Ammon

Hello Sad,
I'm so sorry that you are here under these circumstances, but this is the right place to be. One thing that I can tell you is that I am white and married to a black man. And this does cause another dynamic in your recovery. There is a cultural difference in a black man and something that can be very intriguing to a woman. At the risk of offending anyone, I will leave it at that. It sounds like your WW is having somewhat of a mid-life crisis. Read the books suggested and do the plans in the books. Minimally, at the end of this process, you will be able to look yourself in the face and know that you have done all that you can. The best case scenario is that she will come out of the FOG! Please read SAA ASAP!

God Bless!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Ammon:
<strong>Sadinaz --

First, welcome to MB. I know you're really hurting with this and you've come to a good place to get some help.

No, your marriage is not over. While it may seem to you that it might be at this point, the reality is that it is still a marriage but that it has been wounded severely. What you're feeling about its prospects is normal and common. Seems hopeless but it isn't; not by a long shot.

From her statements to you, it's obvious that she's deep in The Fog. This Fog literally prevents the WS from thinking, talking, or acting rationally or even kindly. You need to know what you're up against so find and read WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses elsewhere on the site. It's often in the Just Found Out Forum.

"Maybe's" and "we'll see's" are standard Fog-Speak, as is the "I love you but I'm not in love with you." The standard operative for you has got to be: Take with caution and skepticism everything your wife says and does. Don't take anything she says at face value and don't expect her to make sense. Unfortunately, she's no longer your friend; she's your adversary and you have to regard her as such. The aliens have landed.

Something you said raised a red flag: "...she is rebelling to a certain extent against her father and myself as she considers us to be similar individuals (strong personality, controlling, successful, etc.)." -- that "controlling" part worries me. Can you help me with that? Often with indecisive people, a spouse with a strong personality is perceived as being controlling and sometimes in fact is.

All the things that your W is telling you are very typical and usual; nothing out of the ordinary here. Nonetheless, it doesn't make your pain any easier to bear. Read everything you can on this site, especially the articles about A's on the home page. Get into counseling for yourself whether or not your W does. This thing needs to play itself out for as long as it takes, but meanwhile you can be working on you. Read also about the Plan A approach; could be the way you'll want to go.

Hang in there and please post again. We're here for you.

Ammon</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To expound on the controlling issue....

Her father is definitely a controlling individual. Very strong willed, the center of the family, and frankly quite wealthy. What he says goes so to speak.

I believe my wife married me because she saw "similar" but characteristics with me as well. I am not nearly as controlling, our marriage was always a 50-50 partnership. But my wife does have issues with indecisiveness and often times I would have to make decisions as she just couldn't/wouldn't do so. Things as simple as where to go to dinner at night....

She told me she has "major issues" that go beyond our marriage. She didn't expound but I think some of them have to deal with her father. The white/black thing is a major issue in her family as well. Not to offend anyone, and I apologize if I do, but it is simply not well received. She has several friends that have dated black guys and her sister was briefly married (1 year) to a black guy that embezzled a bunch of money and cost her father about $20,000 to bail her out of the marriage. Needless to say, she hasn't brought the other man up to him at all although he does know that he both exists and is black as well. He is just waiting for the "right time" to have a discussion although I have pleaded with him not to do so.

I am not going to give up, I refuse to do so. But it is frustrating waiting around without much of a positive response. I know when she contacts me at the end of January she is going to tell me that nothing has changed and that she know that I can't wait forever and that she doesn't want me to do so. She won't ask for a divorce, and I believe it is more because she doesn't know what she wants than anything else. I don't think she has made up her mind and is probably not going to do so unless I force the issue.

Her counselor has said she needs to make a decision at some point and that she needs to provide me with a deadline as to when she will. I think that is dangerous advice for someone like my wife, I don't know how she would make a decision this big when she can't even pick a restaurant. I think the bottom line for me is simply holding on for as long as possible and hope that her romance will simply go away and the FOG will lift at some point. At that point I will have my opportunity but probably not before.

I am going to counseling for myself and have read SAA as well. I think my wife is in a "soulmates in love" affair although she claims she doesn't talk about the future with him. She also claims the reason she won't see me or talk to me has nothing to do with him whatsoever. Frankly, she really doesn't act as though he exists and hesitates to talk much about him unless I should ask. But I know they are very much together and I know she doesn't want to be with me at this time.

All I can do is pray and wait, I really don't think the end of January contact will provide me with much of anything as far as substance is concerned.

But again I ask, do I agree to go to joint counseling with her if she has not broken things off with the OM? Is that worth my/our time?

Sad,

I don't think joint counseling will be of much use to either of you if she is still in the A. But, if she asks agree to do it. You might learn something.

I would suggest that you review Plan A and Plan B. There will come a time and I suspect soon, that you will have to cease all contact with her and move to plan B. Plan A is supposed to only be used for a limited amount of time, because it is an unnatural state. You are totaly the Giver and your Taker is being ignored. That cannot last without doing your love for her irrepairable damage.

I would say that Plan B should be initiated shortly after your discussion with her at the end of Jan. I suspect that nothing will have changed.

You are probably right she wants you to be the bad guy and file for divorce. I would recommend you do just that when you are ready. You aren't the bad guy here and both of you know it.

Further, I suspect her refusal to "see" you has a lot to do with what she has done to you and to herself. she has betrayed everything that is important about her. She cannot also rewrite history with you around and clearly she has done that as well. She very likely remembers nothing good about your marriage. Otherwise how could she justify her behavior? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So prepare yourself for the long haul, and that means Plan B if your love for her is to survive. I think you are right to not date while married. But eventually, you will want something out of life besides waiting for your WW.

If she does come back there will be a lot of effort required on both of your parts to make a go of this. So protect the love as much as you can. If you run out, she won't have anything to give you.

Must go. Sorry you are in this mess.

God Bless,

JL