I know I owe you an update of my trip to TX for New Years but right now I want to address something else.

I believe 2003 will be a good year for me with or without my W. I can't make it a good year unless I believe it myself, so I choose to believe that. For the most part I'm beginning to feel better about letting go of my W; all of the sudden, I started feeling that way. But it's still hard and it's very hard this week. I can't explain why since the holidays are over.

A couple of nights ago I was very upset, very angry in general. I think that thoughts about what she's done to me drove me to be angry. Last night I went to a basketball game with some friends and had a great time, in fact I felt good during the game. So I'm trying to keep myself busy, however at the end of the day after these activities finish I feel empty, I feel this heavy weight once again. I feel despair. I feel I've lost hope that there will never be a reconciliation. I feel drained, I feel beat and/or defeated.

I'm just feeling real down today. I spoke at length with my MIL this morning and it seems that no matter what I do it is always wrong in the eyes of my W. Darn if I do, darn if I don't. The other thing is that my W is being advised (by whom I do not know, lawyers?) to provoke me which she's doing an excellent job of. I have learned to control my anger but she still tries. I'm still puzzled why she would do this, I suspect that she wants to drive me to file for divorce and if that happens the divorce would be over sooner than if she files. I will explain in more detail later.

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: utterlyconfused ]</small>

UC,
I understand how you feel at the end of the day. We keep our minds occupied and then at the end of the day the "thoughts that we were having occupied by other things" creeps into our heads, it is a lonely, weighty, and painful at those times. January is also like that for everyone even if their lives are not filled with the things we are going through to add insult to injury.

I am glad to hear that your outlook for 2003 will be one of growth and betterment for yourself. But know that there are so many of us feeling the same way....at least we can be here for each other on that front...and I also know about feeling darned if you don't.....darned if you do.
But know no matter what, you are on the right path for you... Take Care and best wishes for your new year.....

Thanks for your quick response Neesha.

I think I know the answer but I will throw it in the table for everyone. If it's darned if you do, darned if you don't, what do you do then? What path do you take?

To me you do whatever you consider to be the right path.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by utterlyconfused:
<strong>Thanks for your quick response Neesha.

I think I know the answer but I will throw it in the table for everyone. If it's darned if you do, darned if you don't, what do you do then? What path do you take?

To me you do whatever you consider to be the right path.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, the path you take is the one that will knock them off their fence. I used to tell the WS, well if you were asked (give back the same quest), what would you do? Of course, he would never be so dumb as to take all the stuff I was putting up with. I'd respond by saying, well you sure have given me something to think about and walk away. The Ws' have an insatiable desire to know what the BS is up to, so I tried my best to be vague and aloof.

I recommend the same.

L.

BAD NEWS:

I cannot locate my W or son. I have not talked to either of them since Monday of last week. Here's the latest:

I spoke with my son's teacher. He did not return to school on Thursday.

I spoke with her landlady. She vacated the house (that I'm paying for) last Monday.

Her family will not talk to me.

Last check I gave her was not deposited to her account instead it was signed over to her mom who cashed it.

I really suspect she's at the OM's house with my son.

So, I'm speaking with the lawyers to see what my rights are.

Any suggestions? At this point, forget Plan A or Plan B. I'm going into survival mode for the sake of my son and myself. The marriage will have to be placed on hold. Since it doesn't matter what I do, it's always wrong in her eyes and her family's I will do what is best for my son and if this kills my M than that's her problem.

UC <-- Utterly Angry.

UC -

I'm so sorry for you.

No one deserves this kind of treatment. It makes me really angry to read this.

How can she do such a thing, GOOD GRIEF. ARE YOU OK. I WOULD BE CRAZY WITH WORRY>
HAVE YOU CALLED THE POLICE???
I'M so sorry.
((((((UC))))))
PRAYING FOR SAFETY AND PEACE FOR YOU AND YOUR SON

I don't know how she can do this. My lawyer says she has not broken any laws by doing this.

I am thinking of calling the police but want to make sure she does not get in trouble with the law. I have to think about what I am going to do next.

Thanks for your prayers.

Here's the latest...

I called the OM's house and guess who picked up the phone disguising her voice? You guessed it. So I went to his house with a friend of mine (just in case) and of course she would not open the door. I heard kids talking and at one point I could hear her talking to somebody so she must have been near her door. She never opened the door. I moved out of his property and called 911 and guess what they said? Who has custody? This is a civil matter nothing we can do.

I left the house but not without leaving her a message saying that if by 7:00pm my son is not at the house I will report him missing to the police.

I don't know what I am going to do. The cops will not do anything. The lawyers tell me she has broken no law, my state does not have jurisdiction because of the lawsuit in TX. To be able to use kidnapping as a charge I would have to prove that custody has been established by a court of law and that hasn't happened. The laws are so screwed up!

I am so angry I feel like calling his work and informing his supervisor of everything he is doing. I feel like calling his soon to be ex-wife and telling her what's going on (except if I do that it may endanger my son since she's been accused of abusing her children). I don't know what to do. Any advice is welcome.

This is just devastating. I am so angry.

7:00pm came and of course no son at my house. So I call the police to report a missing child report. They come out to the house and once again they tell me it is a civil matter but you know what, God must be taking care of me. The police man said he has a kid too and he understands what I am going through so he will go over to the OM's house just to check if my son is there.

My W calls me 15 minutes later saying there are two sheriff's at the OM's house. I knew she was there! In fact, I suspected it this weekend. Anyway, she says my S is there and he is OK. When I ask if I can talk to him she says no, she doesn't think so. So I tell her that once again she's denying my S to me. She puts the police man on the phone and he tells me he cannot force her to do this but he will ask nicely. I hear him talk to the OM saying "I can't force her but as a father I understand him wanting to talk to his son." So she agrees and comes back saying my S does not want to talk to me. So, I tell her, once again, you are denying my son to me.

She finally convinces him to talk to me. He has no clue what's going on. He sounds happy and extremely happy to be sleeping in his own bedroom as his mom sleeps in the sofa (yeah right!). He wants to see me right now and I told him to ask his mom. Of course she said no.

I then speak to her who does not want to talk to me says to talk to her lawyer. All I want to know, I say to her, is when can I see him. She says she does not know. I insist, saying give me a specific date, tomorrow? Not tomorrow, I don't know when. Of course she probably wants to check with her lawyer to make sure I don't take him away from her. What she does not know is that the lawsuit she dropped is still pending in TX. She was not counting on that. She thought it was dismissed. This will put a wrinkle in her plans.

I ask her, do you realize that you denying my S to me will hurt you later on? She said with a very concerned tone of voice, "I know, everything I am doing will affect me in the long term, in fact, talking to you will affect me in the long term." This was very puzzling to me.

I know the OM must have been close by because she kept telling me "I will not speak to you with your tone of voice." Funny, I was not upset when I was talking to her and the only thing about my voice was that I was agitated.

I called a mutual friend to see if we can arrange seeing my son tomorrow at her house. I want to see him, hold him, hug him, kiss him and try to answer what's going on the best I can. I really doubt she will let me see him. Worst still, there is nothing I can do legally because of the pending case in TX. I will again check with my lawyer tomorrow.

How do I feel? Like sh*t. I broke down when speaking with my friend. How can she do this? She's been planning this since Thanksgiving and her mom! My MIL, the hypocrite. How can she hug me and tell me they are in TX while knowing she was here. Of course she knew! Who took her to the airport? In fact, they went to the school together to withdraw him.

Why is it that a parent has the right to do everything she did while the other parent cannot do a d*rn thing about it? Why? Because we are not legally separated nor divorced and so there are no papers drawn.

I am worried that my son is in that moral sh*t hole (the OM's house). I am upset of all the lies she keeps telling me. I am angry at doing Plan A and helping her out while she's stabbing me in the back time and time again. It feels like sh*t to know that my W is probably (more than likely) sleeping with the OM. I know most of you are going through that but to me this is my new pain.

One side of me feels strong, that I will survive this. Another side wants to break down, wants to take the anger out; but not on anybody particularly. I am not nor have I ever been a physical nor violent person. This is hard, I am utterly devastated, I was doing everything I could to prevent my son from living in this guy's house and now there they are. My wife defying me, probably saying, "see, you don't control me." This isn't about control. This was about what is best for my son based on the advice from psychologists and lawyers (for him not to have contact with OM). If it was about control, why would I be helping her economically? I COULD JUST SCREAM AAARRGGGGGGGGGGHHHH. Actually, I feel worse than that.

Sorry about the length

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: utterlyconfused ]</small>

One more thing...

Friends and family are asking me tonight if I am still willing to save this marriage. My answer is I don't know, that right now I am concentrating on how to get my S out of the OM's house then I will think about what to do about the M.

I know I am the only one who can answer this question, but after all this, who is sane enough to work on this M? Should I?

UC,

I am sorry for what you have been through. It will definitely have an impact on your son but you know that. Just try to do what you can to get him to a safer place. I know it is harder for dads but see what options your state has for you.

What type of background search have you done on the OM? Is he squeeky clean? Hm..... anything that will jeporadize your child will need to be investigated. Assume nothing. Find the fact, face them and work with them.

take care,
L.

UC,
I WANT YOU TO LISTEN!!!! You have to keep your wits about you now for your son's sake,if you keep yourself all worked up you will not be any good to him or yourself. Now is the time for you to get legal backing because this situation is at the point that it can start to be a (or already could be) psychological battleground for son's developmental processes. Now I am not telling you what to do but just read your thread and see how quicky all those emotions went out of whack, and justifiably so, no arguement. But you need legal legs to stand on now I hope you see it that way. If you both are married and she is living with OM can that not be used against her for you going after sole custody. Listen to where your W is coming from mentally as she did not face you there at the house, very unresponsible, and not doing what was best for son either. But son can not be the bartering tool so you will have to rise above that, as she isn't!!! Am I making sense? If this goes against MB principles then so be it but it is a highly charged situation now.

Please take care as I will have you in my thoughts and prayers

Hi UC,

Before you read this further (starting next paragraph), please go back and reread Neesha's last post--especially the parts that refer to keeping your wits about you and getting legal help and intervention. Then, before you read this further, gather your support resources--all of them! What I am about to tell you might be totally off the mark (and I hope it is) but it will be scary to even have to consider it.

Ready? Are your support friends available right now? Is there someone you can be on the phone with while you read this? I am trusting you to take care of yourself, and here goes....

UC, you mentioned that OM's W was abusive to children--is this a fact or is that just something that OM told you or your WW?

Now go back the strange reactions your WW gave you during a conversation that only HER side could be heard (in front of a cop no less).

You could be being set up for a false abuse charge. If OM's W really is abusive, then by experience OM would know how to do this. There is also the possibility that the story about OM's W being abusive is also false and one he made up for his own purposes. Also, think about the "best defense is a good offense" theory--it could be that OM is the abusive one and he could be setting you up in a situation that if you ever needed to intervene and file a report against him that it would look like a false accusation in response to you being "accused".

I hope this is not at all what is happening UC. How foggy is your WW? Could she be led into this type of thinking? In my opinion, it is time to get professional assistance with this. And I agree with you, your son's welfare comes before and above any hope you have for reconciling with your WW.

Good luck and God Bless UC

YetAgain,

Thanks for your words. In the past, I have given a lot of thought to what you said. I have a few comments (nothing is ever short with me).

Because of that concern I hired a PI in September to find out about his divorce case. According to what I read and what the PI told me, she has some sort of problem. She's been sent to anger management and even had to visit a nurse. So it seems to me that his claim may be true. What I have to do now is get the full case (it will cost me quite a bit, but it's worth it). All he was able to get me was eventful dates at the court and what they were about without any details. My W claims OM sent her the divorce proceedings because he wanted her to know everything there is to know about him. It turns out his marijuana use in the past has come up in the proceedings. He *claims* he no longer smokes it.

So, if that's true then my next thought is that perhaps he led her to being that way. Maybe some sort of psychological abuse? Of course this will be very hard to prove if at all.

As far as my W is concerned, rational approach no longer works with her. I discussed this with her in a rational and calm matter a few months ago to no avail. She says that as long as he doesn't smoke it in front of the kids she has no problem. (yeah, what about the times he's stoned?). Additionally, she said that she will not live her life in fear of the OM's W.

I'm glad you thought about this; it makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only who's concerned about that. What you have told me is valuable though, in that I need to be careful how I interact with my W because he is the expert and they can twist anything against me.

Neesha,

Can you elaborate a little more on how my emotions went out of whack? I am curious about that.

Everybody,

I know at this point my only recourse is from experts, but unfortunately, she's a step ahead of me and nothing she's doing so far is illegal.

UC -

I might suggest just gettin gto a GYM and beating the heck out of a couple of machines. You need tp get the aggressions out in a healthy way. If you aren't a memeber antwhere, most Gyms will give you a free week trial membership.

It will also help you get your mind off of the situation for a while.

Why is it that a parent has the right to do everything she did while the other parent cannot do a d*rn thing about it? Why? Because we are not legally separated nor divorced and so there are no papers drawn.

utterly confused,

This is the very reason that I always respond to posters with the suggestion of taking legal measures whenever a spouse moves out of the house and there are children involved. It isn't that I want them to end their marriage...it is that I think that they should take measures to secure the children in their life.

I know that a lot of people are so set on saving their marriage that they can actually lose their children in the process. With all the talk about the spouse being in the "fog" as far as the marriage is concerned...that same "fog" must be there when dealing with the children and what is best for them. She is concerned only with herself and her own wants and needs and your child comes second place to her.

The marriage can always be worked on after the children are in a secure and safe enviornment with both parents having equal rights to them.

I hate that this is happening to you...I abhor it.
I just hope that this causes some other people to take note as to what can happen and that they will immediately call for legal intervention.

Again, I feel for bad for you uc...I really do. My infant son (15 months old) was kept from me by his father and not returned for 24 hours. I had no idea where he was. Phone calls to taunt me almost cost me my sanity. Since I had a legal document the police became involved and my son was returned to me. Had I not had that document, I can only imagine what would have happened.

Please take the time to contact an attorney who can make sure that your rights as a parent are upheld. You owe it to yourself and to your child.

Always,
committed

Orchid, so far as a I can tell he is squeaky clean, except for his marijuana use and that was in the past.

kily, committed, thanks for your words.

ANYBODY READING THIS, PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT COMMITTED IS SAYING REGARDING LEGAL MATTERS WHEN THERE IS A CHILD INVOLVED. RE-READ HER POST. This is right. My W and I were working on a custody agreement and I prolonged it thinking that pushing it would be an LB. LB or no LB, children come before the M. You have to make sure they are O.K.

So sorry what happened to you, commmitted regarding your 15 month old. I now know how terrifying that must have been for you.

I don't have much to report except to say that our mutual friend talked to her last night and she will let her know when and how I can see my S. It is obvious she's afraid I will take him away from her.

I left my W a message this morning asking her to have my S call me. I haven't heard anything yet.

I still cannot believe she would do this. If this is the fog, this is very thick. How can she think and say she's got my son's best interest in mind??? I know some people would disagree with me on the contact with the OM, but to keep him hidden from me for a full week and to deny him to me! Come on, that's just too much and these freakin' laws saying she has not broken any laws. Geesh.

UC, you asked me about all the emotions here is my observations, I also think you misunderstood my intent in posting to you so I will try it this way....

Qoute from UC:I called the OM's house and guess who picked up the phone disguising her voice? You guessed it. So I went to his house with a friend of mine (just in case) and of course she would not open the door. I heard kids talking and at one point I could hear her talking to somebody so she must have been near her door. She never opened the door. I moved out of his property and called 911 and guess what they said? Who has custody? This is a civil matter nothing we can do.

UC, why did you go to the house, you knew what would happen, when you heard her voice then the next call should have been to someone who can help you go for sole custody or legal backing as I am not a lawyer. You had said at one time you did not want to LB and be amicable in this custody between your wife. UC, she is not acting rational, and if it a LB then so be it, we are talking about your son...TODAY...your wife has time to wake up from her "fog potion" if and when she chooses to, or something forces that in her. YOU are not going to be that force UC, you have done everything you possibly could. Now, let's take care of your son and you because YOU are the stability for him, his mom chooses not to be there as far as being rational and putting his interests way and above hers or OM. Am I making sense now? YOU got caught up in the drama of you heart when you went there, that is how I see it. You knew where she was...but you are so emotionally distraught over so many things UC that it is making you react from a totally emotional controlled arena and not logical where you must operate from, also with emotions stifled so they don't over ride your system. If you still do not understand or you think I have judged you, I am sorry because that is not my intent here, it's to help you get a hold on yourself for what's ahead.

My thoughts are with you UC, please know that.

Neesha,

I understand your post better. Don't apologize for your observations. I know that 99% of the posters here try to help others.

I was not absolutely sure she was there. When I called, the voice sounded like hers. I went to the house knowing that was going to happen but with two hopes: One, that I could confirm it was her and secondly to see if my S could see me or hear me. Mom may be painting everything so beautifully to him but I just wanted him to make sure his dad was there for him. I know he will always know I'm his dad but I want to make sure he knows I'm trying to see him, talk to him, be close to him.

I can guarantee you this, I did not go there to cause any trouble and I made sure that after she did not open the door I stepped out of his property and left. Trust me, I am not a big guy and am not violent nor physical. My son was not going to watch a scene. I took my friend for two purposes, as a witness and to make sure I did not become too emotional.

I hear and understand what you are saying. At this point I can no longer watch my LB's. I have to go with what's best for my son LB or not. As I said, my M has to be placed on hold for the sake of my son.

You know this is what hurts the most: She leaves me, she leaves me for OM, she takes my kid away from me (hides it from me for a week), she takes my kid to live with the OM and now I know for a fact she's seriously considering evicting me from the house so she can live there. Ah, you say, but she does not have a job so how is she going to pay the mortgage. Of course, the court will force UC to pay for it. Why? Employed, skilled and we will have a 10th anniversary in March (one of the things courts take into account when considering spousal support).

Finally, let me add that I'm not sure what I am going to do yet. Here's the deal, as long as I keep opposing her and doing things she does not agree with, she and OM have a problem in common, me. The more I fight her, the more they will be together to defeat me because I'm the enemy and they need to get rid of me. Once I am out of the way then this common cause goes away and it forces them to look at each other and deal with each other only. Reality sets in. The sooner the affair crashes and burns the sooner that man is out of my S's life. This is hard and I need to make a decision fast. Any opinions?

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: utterlyconfused ]</small>