UC,
even though you have feelings we all have (anger, pain, etc.) you have some pretty logical thought processes and have made some good decisions.

Why don't you tell us what you have in mind and let us comment. You have talked to the Harleys, you have consulted a lawyer, I bet you have a plan in your mind.

SS

Quote:You know this is what hurts the most: She leaves me, she leaves me for OM, she takes my kid away from me (hides it from me for a week), she takes my kid to live with the OM and now I know for a fact she's seriously considering evicting me from the house so she can live there. Ah, you say, but she does not have a job so how is she going to pay the mortgage. Of course, the court will force UC to pay for it. Why? Employed, skilled and we will have a 10th anniversary in March (one of the things courts take into account when considering spousal support).

UC, that is why it's time to know options, because you both are still married, how can she live with another man and have child there without consent of other parent. Would it not make sense that you are the more fit parent from all the information you have collected and that you are the more stable? I do not know the laws in your state. Also you mentioned about letting the A crash and burn to get that man out of your S's life....UC, at this point in time I just would be safe all the away around as far as your WS is concerned. If this burns out, and gets the OM out of the picture, great!! But doesn't mean she will not go deeper into her "fog choices" and make another mistake with someone else. What I am trying to convey is that it can not be about her, OM, A, it has to be about you and son now totally. After that is all said and done, if there is a M to work on you will be all the more stronger and healthier to tackle that, as will your son be mentally protected from anymore of these unbalanced swayings of WS. JMHO. I do wish you the best as you are really having it all on your shoulders and her using your son is adding salt to the wound... Keep us posted UC, I am sure there are people here that can help you about the custody issue as I have never had to deal with that personally, only professionally. My heart goes out to you.

UC ... I got your message last night. I cannot imagine how you must feel right now. It's so sad how things have deteriorated. As you know, I do not have children so the best advice I can give is protect your son and protect yourself.

What has your attorney said about all of this?

I'm thinking of you.

w

Thank you, ss, neesha and whippit.

SS suggested that I post my plan to seek advice. Since now this is becoming utterly sensitive with legal matters I prefer not to discuss that. I had sent a link of this board to my W and don't know if she may be reading.

The only thing I can say is that priority number 1 is my son and my relationship with him. My W and my marriage will have to take a back seat.

At this point, I'm hesitating on calling Jennifer simply because I don't know if there is anything left of my M to be saved. Not that I don't want to, I still love my W, but rather because of the reality of things. She is willing to risk so much to be with him, provoke me, hurt me, interfere with my parental duty, etc. It is simply too much.

Latest update: No word from the front.

My W told our mutual friend she would let her know by today if I could see my S tonight. I left her two messages yesterday on her voice mail asking if my S could call me. No word from her. Our friend is thinking she will call her later tonight or tomorrow morning.

This hurts like h*ll. I am crying myself to sleep. I believe this is the end of my M, how can we recover from this? Would I even have the strength left to reconcile after all this? How can she deny me my S for 9 days and counting. It is hurting a LOT when I picture them together laughing, having a good time, enjoying the kids, having sex, etc. That's my W and mother of my son this b*stard stole from me. Yes, I know she was the one who sought him out, who pursued him and who moved in with him. Where is her dignity? He's got it so easy. And he gets to be with my son every day???

I'm a bit worried. A good friend told me tonight that she has not seen me angry since Monday. She wants to make sure I'm not holding all in and that I don't explode later.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: utterlyconfused ]</small>

Latest:

Friend called me earlier this morning and says W called last night around 11-12pm.

W says she is considering letting me see my S this Saturday afternoon but is not sure yet. Friend asked my W to let her know at the latest tomorrow because she has to make plans to host the meeting. Friend says W is afraid that I will speak badly of my W to my S or convince him to come live with me. Guilty conscience? I know I should not pass any judgements but that's one of the reasons for posting on this board, to vent. I will not speak bad of my W or OM in front of my S, this hurts him besides in due time he will find out the truth.

Friend asked about basketball game next Tuesday night. W knows I bought the tickets last November when the plans still were that I was going to support her in her own apt here in the midwest until she found a job. She said she will think about it.

Friend then asked about my S and I speaking on the phone, W did not reply to this.

utterly confused,

Have you retained an attorney yet? If so, have you asked that a motion be filed for "parenting" time with your son? I am under the impression that you can petition for that.

I know that it varies from state to state. You might need to petition for a divorce or separation in order for a temporary stipulation to go into affect to allow for your "parenting" time. (I hate that word visitation!) A petition does not mean that you have to go through with the divorce. It just means that the intention is there, but it also allows for legal measures to be taken in regards to children. It also opens the door for issues such as child support and spousal maintenance. I can imagine by now that you are willing to do whatever you have to do in order to have your son in your life.

If her concerns are that you will say bad things, or try to persuade him to live with you, well, those are things that she is going to have to get over unless she plans on you NEVER being in contact with your son. It could happen now...it could happen later (not saying that you will) but it is something that she has no control over and she wants control over it all.

Your son needs you in his life and you need your son. I know that you will do whatever you need to do to insure that. I am pulling for you.

As Always, JMHO
committed

uc,

I can relate somewhat to your situation as my child was withheld from me for a period of six weeks shortly after my separation.

I was told that if I wanted to see my daughter again that I was to see my atty. Well, let me tell you, that is exactly what I did. I finally saw my D again when I held the court order in my hands.

Unfortunately, in the interim there was nothing I could do to get to my D. I was even tentative to go to her school to see her for fear that the school would bar me from seeing her there. Believe me they can.

Without legal intervention, she can take your child anywhere in this world without your permission or knowledge simply because she is a legal guardian. You have got to have your atty file for joint custody. This will limit each of you from taking the child anywhere without the others permission or knowledge.

If her suit against you is spinning it's wheels and going nowhere then start your own suit. Get joint custody of your son. You not only have "parental duty" as you put it, but you also have parental rights. Your son also has rights.

Your son has the right to be parented by his father as well as his mother. She cannot withold that from the two of you.

Screw the LB's for now. You need to fight for your sons right to be with his father. This isn't all about you...it's about your son's rights too. (no offense intended)

jmho. I wish you the best.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You are absolutely right, ba. This is no longer about me, my W or the M. This is about my S and his emotional well-being. I met with my atty today but cannot divulge anything in case Mrs UC is reading these posts.

My friend finally called and these are my W's conditions to seeing my son:

1. He is to call me tomorrow night between the hours of 6 and 9 pm.
2. Saturday I get to see him at our friend's house between noon and 3pm. His mom will stay at the house. We will have the upstairs and she will have the downstairs. OM will drop them off and pick them up.
3. She is uncomfortable letting me take him to church on Sunday.
4. She is uncomfortable letting me take him to the basketball game on Tuesday. Tickets were purchased last November and she knew of them.

She wants to see how the phone call between 6 and 9 will go so this can be established for the near future. Until there is more than a verbal guarantee I cannot see my son alone.

How's that for my W thinking about his well-being. Isn't this called interfering with the parent-child relationship?

And what is she afraid of? Shortly after d-day I promised my W that I would do everything in my power to ensure my son does not live with OM at least until some time after our divorce. Before people start saying this is controlling behavior towards my W, let me remind you that there is enough evidence to prove this is the right thing to do for his sake. This decision is not about her but about my S. But I also told her whatever I did I was going to make sure it was legal, I wasn't going to hurt my son doing anything illegal.

OK... right now I am really, really upset. Finally beginning to feel the anger.

UC,

Why does she feel she has to hover over your visitation? You don't hover over her time with your son. Ask her to put it in writing and I suggest you get the legality of your visitation worked out.

I think your W is pushing your buttons and attempting to take you to the edge. Don't let her take you there. You go and get support to setup proper visitation with your son.

Don't threaten the OM being around your son....for now. Let her think it is ok and you go prepare yourself for a battle and a half. Your W is showing all the markings of setting you up for a fall.

Seems more like her greatest fear is that your son may reveal more that is going on than she wants you to know. How ld is he?

Be prepared.
JMHO,
L.

uc,

Your child is becoming a pawn. She feels the need to supervise your time with him because she fears what you are fearing...that you will take him away from HER. She doesn't want to let him out of her sight.

There is nothing to stop her from changing her mind at the last second and canceling all plans thereby jerking your emotional chain. That has happened to me time and time again.

Unless you are an unfit parent, you certainly don't require supervision while you are with your son. Nor do you need your W's permission to be with him. What you do need however is a court order that clearly establishes the time that you and your son can share together (unsupervised). That way she can't withhold him from you without being in contempt.

You don't have to ask to be with your son...you have to demand it. You don't have to meet her zany conditions. You are not a threat to your son. However, so long as you are without a court order stipulating shared parenting time, she is in control and as you've already found out, even the police won't help you.

jmho

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Friends and family are telling me that I should decline the visit to my S tomorrow because of all the absurd conditions my W is placing on me. Remember that the conditions are as follows:

1. I am to get there at noon after OM drops them off.
2. If my S and I will spend our time downstairs, she will be upstairs but wants our friend's friend (he's a cop) to be downstairs. I take this to be a supervised visit.
3. If my S and I spend our time upstairs we can be alone, she will be downstairs.
4. I can only see him from 12-3pm.
5. In addition to my W being present our friend has to be there and our cop friend as well.
6. I cannot take him to church on Sunday nor the game on Tuesday (I already accepted this).

Now, I understand her fears, yes, I do. Ultimately what I am deciding to do here is to go ahead with my visit. The visit is about my S not about my W and my problems, differences or perception of control. This is one where I have to abide by her rules because it is the only way I can see him. I was told that only parents who pose a danger to their kids have a supervised visit and yet she wants to make sure our cop friend is present, so I agree with how absurd her conditions are.

In any case, what do you think (especially those who have kids)? Am I doing the right thing by bowing my head and complying with all this? As I said I'm doing this for my S.

uc,

I think you should take advantage of every opportunity you have to see your son. As I said, she will often change her mind on a whim.

Once you have a court ordered parenting schedule in place her absurd antics will go by the wayside.

If you decide not to go she most likely will tell your son that you don't care enough to see him. Even after a parenting schedule is in place she may tell your son that he doesn't have to see you if he doesn't want to. Sad but true. She has already created an atmosphere for you and your son that makes you appear suspect.

I can't stress enough how important it is to establish a legally binding parenting schedule. But it's equally important to be with your son whenever the opportunity presents itself.

He will always remember the time you share together. He will also remember the times that you didn't when you could have.

That last bit of advice was offered to me by committedandlovingit. I value it very much. It helps me and my daughter to appreciate every moment that we have together. ty committed, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

jmho

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: ba109 ]</small>

The visit is only until 3:00pm because she has plans both Saturday and Sunday. OK, so their plans are more important than her son's visit with his dad.

My son finally called me! I sounded very happy, very in control of myself to him. By the end of the conversation he was more relaxed. OK, here are the highlights of what he said:

1. He's asked mom to let him see dad. Mom says no "because it is hard to return to the OM's house." These are his words; I am not sure what he meant by that.

2. Mom cannot be with dad because, she said to him, I always tell her what to do. I asked him what he thought about this and he said he thought this was true. However, this came up again later and this time he said he didn't think it was true. Folks, in my defense I can tell you that several people have told me, including her own sister, that they thought she wore the pants in this M. I've come to realize the control was mutual. Mine was more of a decision making kind hers emotional. No wonder we ended up in so much trouble.

3. He said mom wants to be there (at OM's house) and when I asked him what he wanted, he replied "I don't know." This worries me because in the past he has been clear to me (and to my W) that what he wants is for mom, dad and him to live together. In fact two weeks ago he told me he did not want mom to marry the OM but wanted her to marry dad. My concern is that now he's confused, he does not know what he wants. What the h*ll is she telling him?

4. He says he is "bored, so bored," in that house.

***** VENT ALERT *****
5. Told me OM had just finished giving him a bath with the other kids. Excuse me, people, cover your ears, WHAT THE H*LL??? WHY IS ANOTHER MAN, A STRANGER, EVEN TO MY OWN SON, GIVING HIM A BATH? WHO DOES THE B*ST*RD THINK HE IS. ARE THEY TRYING TO REPLACE ME??? You may now uncover your ears, I am through shouting with anger.

6. Mom told him during the phone call to eat when he finished talking to me. He asked her if he could call me after he was done with dinner. Her response? No, you will see him tomorrow. WHAT THE....? Hmm... let's see, give them bath early, telling him he cannot call his dad after dinner, is it possible that they were trying to put their kids in bed early so they can...? Nah, I'm just hallucinating, h*ck, she told him she's sleeping on the sofa.

Who is this woman, people? I know she lives in fear because of the promise I made to her that I was going to make sure our S did not live with OM until after the divorce, but what is she doing to her own son? I think I understand why she's doing what she's doing, but I think it is the wrong thing.

***** VENT ALERT *****
Why the f**k are they acting like mom and dad? What does she think she's doing to my son? People, this may be my anger finally coming out and I hate what I am about to say, but I hope they both, individually and separately, suffer a lot for this pain they are causing my son and so many other people. They don't freakin' care who they hurt, do they? I truly feel bad for wishing them bad but it is how I feel. I hate it. Venting it here allows me to not say or wish this in public.

One last thing. I did not pry this information from my son. This came up in conversation. For instance, I asked him if he knew that we were seeing each other tomorrow, he said yes and then I asked him if he was excited. That's when he began telling me that he's asked mom to let him see me. The rest of the conversation followed from there.

I am happy that I made him laugh more than once and that I made him feel at ease with me (not that he hasn't in the past). I say this because at the beginning he was a little quiet (a little unusual for him, especially since I just saw him less than two weeks ago). Overall I was very satisfied with the conversation and I think he was happy I spoke with him.

<small>[ January 17, 2003, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: utterlyconfused ]</small>

uc,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said mom wants to be there (at OM's house) and when I asked him what he wanted, he replied "I don't know." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've just broken a cardinal rule. Do not ask your son who he would rather live with. He should never be made to feel like he has to choose. Gawd, that is a no win situation for him. If he says "you" he hurts his mom, if he says "mom" he hurts you. The last thing he wants to do is hurt either of you.

Do yourself a favor. IF you see him tomorrow, try and make it all about your son and you. Make him feel like he is the most important thing in your life. Talk about father/son stuff, school, his friends, his interests, etc.

Don't pry your son for information about his mother, her lifestyle, activities or the OM. He should not be put in a position to rat out his own mother.

When you're with him it should be all about the two of you. Enjoy it and appreciate it to the fullest. Keep your focus.

I'm so sorry you have to submit to supervision for this. That will end when you have your parenting schedule in place. (ya notice how i keep harping on that?) Just do it!

jmho

I hope you and your son make the most of your time together.

tagging off <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I am planning activities to do with him in this short period of time.

I know ba, I shouldn't have asked that question. This is so d*rn hard! I want to know what he's feeling so I can help. Seriously, I am not after finding out what mom is doing, it would hurt me too much to know. This is about trying to help my son and ensuring I teach him what is right and what is wrong. And I'm caught in a quandary because as you say he should not be in a position to choose, but on the other hand how do I help him make sense of what's going on especially after his mom seems to be smearing me, making the OM and their situation the best place for him to be in and therefore by this time she has confused him.

I know you keep harping on the visitation schedule. Don't have to anymore, legal action has been taken as of yesterday. As I said before I don't want to divulge it publicly until W is aware of it.

I don't know if you understand what I'm saying. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, as they say. I know he should not be brought up to an adult level but how do I prevent that when I'm trying to help him make sense of his whirlwind world? It bothers me that my W is the one telling him all these things. Do you understand? What am I missing, what assumptions do I have that are wrong with this logic?

Thanks.

I will see my son in about an hour or so...

I'm trying to find the balance as to what is an appropriate conversation with my S and what is not. I will keep him busy with fun activities but I have a desire to know certain things about him. So, I would like your opinion on whether the following questions are appropriate for a soon to be 6 yr old who knows more than he should about this situation already.

1. Is he going to school and if so where, what do you do at school, do you have any friends, etc.
2. He said he was bored. What does he do during the day? What does he like to do.
3. Has he played in the snow yet? It's been bitterly cold and my W and I usually do not take him out to play when it is below 10 degrees which it has been for a few days.
4. He's been invited to a b-day party next Saturday of a friend of his. The little girl keeps asking about him where he is when she's going to see him, etc. Should I tell him about the invitation. More than likely mom will say no.
5.I am going to teach him how to dial my number so he can call me whenever he wants to. I am also going to tell him to ask his mom for permission to use the phone prior to calling me.

That's all I can think of right now. Let me stress the point that my intent is not to pry on my W's activities. My intent is that as a dad I want to know as much as I can about my son's life and how he is doing.

Thanks.

uc,

I hope you don't mind me chiming in with a few thoughts and suggestions.

It looks like ba109 is giving you some good suggestions. He went through exactly what is happening to you.

I might add that you cannot control what your WS and the OM say. You can only control what YOU say to your child. Right now you do not want to make this a battlefield with your son being the Flag that you both want to capture.

I know that we all want to teach our children right from wrong, imho, now is the not time to approach that. (btw, how old is your son?) Once your parenting schedule is in effect, and your time is secured and being acting upon, you can talk to your son in a very soothing way about what is happening. If the subject comes up you let him know that Mom isn't acting in a way that you agree with. Mom is an adult and makes her own decisions. You can also tell him that when grownups get angry at each other they said things that are not true sometimes. Mom wants to do what she is doing and while it is wrong in your eyes you cannot tell her what to do. Again, I add to talk about it only if HE brings it up. Do not ask him how Mom and the OW are doing. Do not ask where Mom is sleeping. If he mentions it respond with "well, she is an adult and I cannot tell her what to do" or something like "oh , that Mom..she is so silly sometimes" and then change the subject. Silly is a nonthreatening word and no one can take offense at being called silly. I bet your son would smile, agree, and then giggle. Leave it at that. Naturally, if something comes up in conversation that makes you think that he is not being cared for in the proper manner or neglected, I would say to pursue the topic. The time will come that you can address these issues to her in the proper forum (court) or through attorneys.

If you ask him where he wants to live...or who he wants to live with...he translate that into ...who he LOVES more. That is something that will be addressed again through attorneys and any custody hearing that might take place.

The reason that she wants supervised visitation is because she fears the very same thing that you do. She fears that you will talk about her and turn her son against her. You are fearful of that happening cause you are not there. She has that same fear.

The time will come when your son will know the truth about the situation but it will be on his own timeframe. Just focus on spending what time you have with him. Smile, joke, tease, tickle, , read books, talk school, talk toys, talk games, play games....do everything that does NOT draw her presence into your time.

Pardon me if I have intruded into what seemed to be a good exchange of posts between you and ba109. I know that he can be invaluable help to you in that area.

As Always, JMHO
committed

uc,

I see that you posted at the same time I was. I hope you don't mind if I address your concerns.

1. By all means ask him if he is going to school! If he isn't, it is something else that will need to be addressed. The name is all that I would ask about. Not the address anything like that. That would be a threat to her and she would not be friendly about another visit. Friends are always a good topic.

2. Ask about his day...his activites...another good question.

3. In normal conversation you can ask about his playing in the snow. Ask if he's had a chance to play in the snow... not if Mom has taken him out in the snow...(again thats threatening to her).

4. By all means tell him that his friends are asking about him. It will make him feel good. The invitation...if you have one on paper...take it with you. It was meant to be given to him. Give it to him. His mother will have to act on it the rest of the way.

5. He should certainly be given your number and taught how to dial it. Its good that you plan on telling him to ask his mother first. That means that he must respect his mother's wishes and also that you are respectful of her position as his mother (but it still SUX). Teach him how to dial it...if you have a pager...teach him to dial it and use a special code for him to type in to let you know that it is him calling. Is he old enough to do that? I would go one step further and make sure that I had the phone number of the house that he lives in. That is well within your right as a parent.

Keep all conversations about HIM...if it gets sidetracked..say thats nice...but tell me what YOU have been doing. I have missed you so much and I have so much to catch up on!!! Tell me EVERYTHING about what you have been doing.

Hope that might help a bit.

Committed

committted, you are absolutely not intruding. The more people who can advise me the better.

I agree with everything ba is telling me and what you are saying as well. I have to learn to be even more patient (I am more patient now than 6 months ago) and let time take care of things for my S. He will know what he needs to know in his own time frame.

He will be 6 next month and is very inquisitive about things.

Thanks for taking the time to give an opinion on each of my questions. I learned from your response. I am about to leave and am very nervous, I don't know why.