I'm the WW - had PA beginning Dec 02 and still having EA with OM. H found out (spied on my emails) - he wants to stay married but he feels totally betrayed and that he can't trust me. This is the only time I've had sex with anyone except H. It was a fantastic experience for me and it had even shown huge benefits to our marriage until H found out. I felt so attractive and happy and even H and I were having more exciting sex. H has never had any sexual partners apart from me before or since M. He is not a very imaginitive lover. I am very adventurous and outgoing.

Apart from the physical side, I find H intellectually boring. So those are the negatives. The positives are: he is a wonderful father, a good provider, a loyal, loving companion. We have been together for 18 years. I know him so well. He loves me.

We have two very young children aged 2 and 4. We saw a counsellor last night and H felt "picked upon" and ganged up upon" and "threatened" when the counsellor asked him questions about his views on marital fidelity and eventually H told the counsellor that he didn't want to continue.

We both say we want to stay married to each other - but I'm worried that with the best will in the world, we are just too different. I'm also worried about my EN not being met.

This is a very brief summary - I may have left out some crucial details! But you all seem like a great bunch and I want to start having some dialogue with someone(s)

My Summary:
WW aged 37
M 15 years
BS 37 yo
Live in England
DS 4 years DD nearly 3
PA first week Dec 02
EA ongoing

I think your marriage is worth saving.

However, as long as you are in contact with the OM, you aren't putting forth the effort that will save it.

Often when a spouse has an affair, suddenly the BS is seen as not as interesting, love is doubted, history re-written to make having the affair more reasonable within the WS's mind. The beginning of a relationship tends to be more exciting than 18 years down the road.

You've apparently gotten along for all these years, are you sure you & your H are too different? With your children, who need both parents, you have 2 very good reasons to work together and explore all the options of trying to make your marriage successful.

But, the first thing you should do is stop contact with the OM. You can't make a good decision about your marriage AND keep him around meeting your needs.

A boring sex life...takes 2. You say it was more exciting after the PA, and didn't that start with a change in YOUR attitude?

Dear Diana:
I'm going to be a little harsh on you but I think you are in the fog and need a little harshness to WAKE YOU UP.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm the WW - had PA beginning Dec 02 and still having EA with OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You CANNOT save your M unless you end all contact with OM and recommit to your M. Period.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It was a fantastic experience for me and it had even shown huge benefits to our marriage until H found out</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please, please don't tell your H that it was "fantastic" unless you want to totally devastate him. How can anything based on lies and deceit have "benefits"? Get real.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We both say we want to stay married to each other </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's all you really need to know. Now, work on it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - but I'm worried that with the best will in the world, we are just too different.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've been doing it for 15 years, I think you just need to do some things differently.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm also worried about my EN not being met.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you done the questionnaires on this website? Has your H? You need to fill these out and go over them with each other.

Have you read all the articles on this website? I STRONGLY encourage you to buy the book Surviving an Affair by Harley and available for purchase on this website. Please have your H read it with you.

I also would like to add that if you are serious about your M, please do a NC letter and send it today. And then - don't have anymore Contact with OM!!
Welcome to MB and good luck.DB

ditto the others

One question: is your OM married as well? If so, do you believe all the things he's told you about how bad his wife is?

You are welcome here and we will help all we can. Please encourage your H to visit and ask questions.

If you need insight on what affairs and divorce do to children, please ask. Also consider the reality that if you continue this course, what it will feel like to lose a huge part of your children's lives. You'll lose at least 50% of each child = losing a whole child. Isn't that alone worth giving your marriage a real chance?

Dear Diana

As a FWS and fellow Brit, we already have something in common! MB is a wonderful place to come for support and advice.

The advice you have already been given is very sound. I will also say to you, NC is a must if you are to have any chance of re-building your M. It will then take you some time (withdrawal) for your to get over the OM. A very wise sage that goes by the name of Just Learning told me when I first came here to give myself six months for my emotions to settle before making any rash decisions - given your long history and your 2 children, is this too much to ask? But do make sure that you have NC with OM during this time because otherwise, you will have no chance of rebuilding your M, you will be very "foggy".

Diana, it is just past 6 months since d-day for me and my H. My H told me last night that he does not want to recover our M. Also, he is now dating - having an EA. The tremendous amount of pressure and the roller coaster that has been my life for the last six months has been, at times, unbearable. I regret everything that I did, even though my H found an e-mail where I described sex with OM as "the best ever". I feel ashamed and remorseful that I could have caused such terrible pain to the person I was supposed to love the most. If OM is the love of your life, let it be for six months, get a DV and then find OM again, he'll wait for you. But more importantly, see if your M is worth saving and to do that focus on you and your H.

There are some very good articles here, and I ordered Surviving an Affair from Amazon quite cheaply. It is a very good book.

Keep posting and good luck.

Wishing you well from London.

Lisa

DazedBlond,
Thanks for your message - you weren't being harsh - it was exactly the kind of response I expected. There is a lot I didn't mention in my first post - and that is the pitfall of this kind of correspondence (sorry - thinking out loud here!) but I think going through the EN questionnaires is excellent advice. Trouble is, I don't know if I can persuade H to do them.

I'm the one who has been doing all the WORK in this M - The first time I wanted to walk out was on our wedding night. I have wanted to leave him many, many times but he has always emotionally blackmailed me to stay (crying, begging me to stay, telling me his life would be over if I left him). In the past, he was very bullying and emotionally abusive, but he decided to really try to change (executing plan a - although he wouldn't call it that because he hasn't been on this site yet) and I was really enjoying all the attention and love, but at the same time really scared that it would be temporary.

Also, I asked him for a divorce in march '02 (pre A) and wanted a separation but he begged me to stay. I told him that I really needed to find some answers about myself and my sexuality and he issued me with an ultimatum that if I had sex with someone else, then he wouldn't be able to be with me. Well, he is still here. Part of me feels like a mother chicken trying to kick her grown up chick out of the nest. He is a very dependant husband.

On the other hand, I totally agree about the children. Another part of me thinks I should just grow up, knuckle down and try to accept the relationship with all its warts. But I cannot, CANNOT, deny my EN. So, I'm going to do my best to get him to work on the questionnaire. TONIGHT!

THANKS again,
Diana

There ARE NO M's in the world NOT worth SAVING!

Do YOU Want YOUR M!?

Dear Diana:
I'm glad you didn't think I was toooooo harsh.

Would you H be willing to try another MC? Maybe the one you got wasn't a good one. I know several others on this site have gone to many before finding one they both liked and agreed with. I think there is an article on this website about finding a good marriage counselor. You might want to read that.

You also might want to set some boundaries for yourself and your M. Explain to your H that you are willing to work on the M if he is also willing to do a few things to work on it, like reading SAA, doing the questionnaires and possibly trying MC again.

However, you can still gain a lot by doing these steps on your own and making yourself be a better person and wife.

Ask him what he has to lose by visiting MB and what he has to lose if he doesn't? You can't make him, but I think he must be one of the types that needs a little "pushing".
Best of luck,
DB

How do you reconcile these 2 very different statements you've made?

he is a wonderful father, a good provider, a loyal, loving companion.

he has always emotionally blackmailed me to stay (crying, begging me to
stay, telling me his life would be over if I left him). In the past, he
was very bullying and emotionally abusive

Is he both?

You may have wanted to walk out on your wedding day, but you didn't, you stayed and many years later decided to have 2 children with him.

You are the only woman he has been with sexually, could his lack of adventure be ignorance rather than disinterest? ANd, given that, your infidelity may hit him harder than someone who has had more experience.

Yes.

Read "Surving an Affair", by Willard Harley - with your H, if possible. It will give you the tools to make your marriage great, and show both of you what you need to do to accomplish that (it's hard to do alone, as you know.) It will also show you why you need to cut contact w/ the OM. I, like you, felt I had been the one making all the effort in my marriage. Reading SAA helped me see how my efforts had been mis-directed, and helped me re-diret them so my marriage actually improved (in contrast to my previous efforts). The end result was less work and better results. My wife, like you, thought I could not meet her needs. She discovered she was mistaken.

My personal explanation of why you should cut contact is that it hurts your H. He already seems to have trouble with motivation, do you really think he will make an effort it you don't even have the decency to stop hurting him (like: "Why should I try, if the pain is not going to stop?") Second, when the OM meets your needs, that covers up YOUR pain from this marriage. You need that pain, and to be open about it, to get at the root of what your marital problems are. You can't tell your husband what hurts if it doesn't hurt. You need to be honest w/ your husband. Honesty about any contact you continue w/ the OM is going to hurt him and kill whatever motivation he has to work on the marriage. Dishoesty will keep you from developing an intimate relationship.

Divorce is devastating for kids. Even if you cannot, eventually, save your marriage, if you can't look them in the eye and say "I did everything in my power to prevent you from experiencing this pain." you are going to have a hard time living w/ yourself. (Did I mention you needed to cut off contact w/ the OM?)

Last recommendation: Read "The Passionate Marrige", by Snarch together w/ your husband. Your symptoms may be mostly in your sex life, but they are likely to be related to other aspects of your relationship. Snarch uses the symptoms to dig up the root causes (though if you read SAA first, you will probably have a pretty good idea about root causes already) You will see yourselves in the case studies in the first chapter. Snarch never suggests anyone should do anything they don't really want to, so your husband will not feel "ganged up on", I hope. He does deal specifically with cases of "unimaginative husband", though.

Harley has several Q&A columns on this site that deal with incompatibility. Look at his stuff on the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA), too.

thanks, John for your thoughtful and considered reply. Last night H and I did the EN quesionnaire together, which in itself was very special. I am hoping we will do the LB questionaire soon.

cutting of contact with OM is very difficult for me, even though I know it has to be done. I accept your reasons as valid. I think I am going that way - OM and I are down to the occassional phone call now - we don't see each other any more (he lives very far away from me any way). Also, OM has stated that he will never leave his wife and we really had a very brief (Tues and Thurs of the same week) A. We weren't in the business of falling in love with each other. It was more a case of my needing some assurance that I am sexy, desirable, attractive and a good lover. That said, OM is a very nice man and has started feeling more for me than he "should" and I like that.

Those are just some of my thoughts - thanks for taking the time and trouble to write to me.

Dear Lisa,

Thanks for your reply to my letter - I am just confused - I have searched the website for a definition for "NC your OM" and can't find it. Please could you enlighten me?

Thanks,

Diana

Hi Diana

If you go to the "Home" page, there are quick clicks where you can find more info. Click on "Ending an Affair" and there is a small piece about writing a NC letter and why you should do it. There is also informaiton on withdrawal which will be helpful for you, as you will surely suffer from withdrawal from OM. But honestly, it is much easier if you have NC. Did you think about what I said about a 6 month time frame to let your emotions settle and see if you can work on your M? I realised well before 6 months that I wanted to work on me and my M.

Take care and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> cutting of contact with OM is very difficult for me... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly why it is neccessary. If it were not true, cutting off contact would ONLY be out of consideration for your husband.

BTW, I forgot to add in my earlier post that I disagree w/ DB. If you want to fix the problems in your marriage, you need to identify them, and this is a problem area for you. OK, you don't need to say it was "fantastic", but you at least need to let him know that it was better than w/ him. Even that is devastating (I can tell you from personal experience), but you cannot hide teh truth. To do so would be to continue the patterns of behavior that led to your A.

Secoondly, (again from personal experience) the reason your experience was better w/ the OM was probably not due to technique. This is not to say technique has no effect, but simply that the physical part is the least important of three things that affect our sexual experience. The other two are emotions and thoughts. To find out what problems you need to solve, you need to look really hard at how the OM made you feel, and how you thought about him and yourself when you were having sex w/ him. If it was a physical/technique thing, you could easily teach your H the same techniques the OM used, and your experience w/ your H would be the same as w/ the OM. As distasteful as that idea probably is to your H, it is probably not an option, but if it were, I can guarantee you that you would be disappointed in the results. If this makes sense to you, you are probably on the right path to solving the problems in your marriage. If not, it will make sense by the time you are done reading the books.