can you imagine!!!

the nerve... so my best friend knowing full well that i love I mean LOVE strawberry rubarb pie went to lunch with me and after deterimining that it was in deed the last piece of the season, yea the season not just the day the week or the month, this is the last piece ill see this side of the mississippi until next fall. ohhh and what a treat i got to have a bite..
and it was good really good but not quite enough to do more than stir up a real bid desire for a whole piece.

so there i sit totally frustrated while my best friend not only takes what is known to be my absolute favorite thing right out from under me, but flaunts its right in front of me savoring each and every bite.

oh thanks for the taste how gracious of you NOT!!! now im really dying to have some ...

too bad this post is about SEX and NOT pie

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I've been trying to make heads or tails out of this since I read it on EN board...

I 'get' the analogy... but NOT at what point you are trying to make...

Chaz the test in all this is to figure out why you, a person who LOVES pie, has a friend who would keep the last piece from you...

What would happen if PIE weren't as important to you? When you could get through a day without wondering if you were going to get some?

Cali

Chaz -

Learn how to make your own! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think you might be able to buy frozen rhubarb....

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

Ok. so I read this and i'm thinking his best friend is getting some hot and nasty from the wife. Spent the entire lunch talking all about it and poor chaz here has to go home to some, wel... frozen rubarb.

(no phallic pun intended with the rubarb)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
<strong> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I've been trying to make heads or tails out of this since I read it on EN board...</strong>

i dont know why it makes perfect sense to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I 'get' the analogy... but NOT at what point you are trying to make...

just the feeling. that feeling that you would have, if that were to happen. that you get just a taste of something that would be so satisfying and good but only enough to remind you how much you love it.

Chaz the test in all this is to figure out why you, a person who LOVES pie, has a friend who would keep the last piece from you...

thats a complicated question. one whos answer isnt very pretty at the core. even though i have a tremendous love for my wife if I had been stronger earlier in our marriage its very likely i would have realized that her inability to be sexual isnt MY FAULT. there isnt a magical set of circumstances that creates the perfect environment for her to be desireous of sex with me or at all.

What would happen if PIE weren't as important to you?

id wager that just as A.S. has fallen off my list SF would fall too if the willingness to participate was there.

how is it dr. phil puts it. when its good its only 10% when its bad its 90%

When you could get through a day without wondering if you were going to get some?


like wondering if i could get thru the day without Honesty and Openess or Family Commitment?

i dont know i think thats an unrealistic kind of idea.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hey Chaz...

I DO GET IT...

I was obsessed... thought EVERY day about SF w/ H throughout our marriage... it very much became about 'me'... something was wrong w/ me... he didn't love me... I wasn't pretty enough... he didn't desire me...

and... I am NOT saying that it isn't as important as Openness, Honesty... etc... BUT... can you trace back to figure out why THOSE ENs are in your top 5? Why NOT something else? SF is important for a reason...

...it does become about US... a way to feel in control... in love... happy...

I so much more appreciate SF as it has become about MUTUALITY and SHARING... and now, for what may be the FIRST time in our marriage... H initiates more than I do...

I am not CRAVING it because we have it... 'cause we always have... but because I DON'T HAVE TO HAVE it... (and that doesn't mean that it isn't still in my top 5...)

Cali

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>Chaz -

Learn how to make your own! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong>

I do thats why i have forearms like a sailor.

not quite the same though doing it myself does nothing to bring us closer together.

I think you might be able to buy frozen rhubarb....

i think thats the problem my rhubarb is frozen and theres nothing i can do to thaw it out.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>Hey Chaz...

I DO GET IT...

I was obsessed... thought EVERY day about SF w/ H throughout our marriage... </strong>

see when I am regularly having sex i dont obsess about it all. even if it a couple of times a month its enough to keep it from being an obsessive kind of thing.

its only when we go for 6 week without any kind of connection that it begins to get to me. in part because I dont feel like i can talk about it or have a discussion about what we can do to improve this area of life for the both of us. there is no negotiation and when it goes that long, i begin to worry about how much longer will it go, its not like we havent gone for years at a time without.

why THOSE ENs are in your top 5? Why NOT something else? SF is important for a reason...

this is where i get hung up, i dont think SF is abnormally important, i think its typically important for me.

in therory i think its high on my list because more than it feeling good and being natural its an outward expression of love a showing of importance.. when the laundry is more important than I am i take offence.

...it does become about US... a way to feel in control... in love... happy...

i was applying my problem to her, i havent been allowing her to be troubled to have problems of her own. its always had to be that I havent been enough of a man or i havent been doing the right things to create the space or time or security she needed. instead of allowing her to have flaws i took all the blame.

I so much more appreciate SF as it has become about MUTUALITY and SHARING...

you know when its making love and not sex thats exactly true.. its too bad i can only remember what its like to make love and be made love to.. its even worse that the person who last made love to me in that way wasnt my wife.

and now, for what may be the FIRST time in our marriage... H initiates more than I do...

Well Alright!! good for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am not CRAVING it because we have it... 'cause we always have... but because I DON'T HAVE TO HAVE it... (and that doesn't mean that it isn't still in my top 5...)

i crave it when its been too long.. and when its been to long and the solution is a middle of the night half alseep effort its just a taste of what could be very wonderful if only she were open to it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I know I'd be an obsessive mess if it had been six weeks... I remember how I obsessed if we went 2 weeks... can't imagine 6... even during his A, I don't think we went longer than 3...

so I really can't place myself totally in your shoes... it's just that for ME, I know that SF symbolized something deeper between us... and I HAD TO HAVE IT TO FEEL CONNECTED...

There was an "emotional detachment" between us...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"The lights are on but nobody is home." To be emotionally detached is to be out of touch with one's feelings and unable to be emotionally present in a relationship. It can be a killer to intimacy, because it feels to the other party that they are alone, even though someone is there.

The Bible says that to love God involves the heart as well as the mind. When we are out of touch with our feelings and cannot express them to one another, then intimacy is blocked, and our experience is one of the person's heart being "far away."

To feel close, we need to be present emotionally. Our needs, vulnerabilities, fears, pain, tender feelings, and the like must be communicated and expressed. When someone is detached from feelings, and the ability to express them, the other person cannot feel the kind of connection that we think of as "intimacy," or "being known." Intimacy involves the heart, as well as the mind. As David said, God desires truth in the "innermost being." (Ps. 51:6) If someone is out of touch with their deep feelings and innermost parts, then shallow relationships are what follows.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from Blocks to Love

How would you characterize your emotional attachment w/ your wife and vice versa?

Cali

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
<strong>I know I'd be an obsessive mess if it had been six weeks... I remember how I obsessed if we went 2 weeks... can't imagine 6... even during his A, I don't think we went longer than 3...</strong>

once every 6 weeks is actually quite an improvement.. we have gone 2 yeas at a stretch. and id say averaged once a quarter for most of the 15 years we have been married. so yea im prone to panic when it start to go too long.

How would you characterize your emotional attachment w/ your wife and vice versa?

I am willing and actually more capable of sharing myself now then ever, i have always been willing to do so probably too much so.

my wife is a clam, she rarely opens up, never discusses her feelings and doesnt understand what the big deal is. ive only seen her cry twice in 15 years..

she doesnt want to hear about my feelings or needs and is very judgemental and turse when i do. generally I end up being very hurt by her.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Cali:
How would you characterize your emotional attachment w/ your wife and vice versa?

Chaz:
I am willing and actually more capable of sharing myself now then ever, i have always been willing to do so probably too much so.

You say you are willing... but do you? do you open up to her?

my wife is a clam, she rarely opens up, never discusses her feelings and doesnt understand what the big deal is. ive only seen her cry twice in 15 years..

You aren't going to change her... You CAN change what you do. Do you discuss your feelings? w/out being accusatory? i.e. When we aren't physically intimate, I feel a loss in our connection? When we go long periods w/out SF, I feel....

she doesnt want to hear about my feelings or needs and is very judgemental and turse when i do. generally I end up being very hurt by her.

I have generally found that when I make my H the CAUSE of my feelings, he is also not very receptive. Second, you can't change how she ACTS towards you... but you can choose how you REACT... why do you choose hurt? I have also found that I used to push and push and push until my H did SAY something hurtful... I wanted him to OWN my feelings and feel responsible...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have read that you attend Bible study... does your wife? Would she be open to reading? I would suggest the Cloud/Townsend books... especially Hiding From Love You BOTH just might get down to why you each hide in your deep dark forests.

Secondly... check out Stormie Omartian's Power of a Praying Husband YOU let GO of IT and give it to God to handle.

My final suggestion is The Passionate Marriage by Jeffery Schnarch who believes that we work out who we are and our unfinished childhood business in our marriages and in the sexuality of our marriages. He is a sexual therapist.

Cali

<small>[ January 13, 2003, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: Cali ]</small>

chaz,

Forgive me if you've already answered this somewhere... I don't lurk as much as I used to... these are not trick questions... I'm really wondering...

What have you done to seduce your W (Plan A)? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Are you making yourself irresistable?

What's different about you now, as opposed to the Chaz she fell in love with and wanted to make love to?

For example, if she feels compelled to get the laundry done instead of making love, what if it was already done?

Have you tried treating her like a queen? (Not for a day or two, but for weeks.... or months... ) Flowers, helping with housework, going on dates, compliments, support and encouragement, listening...

??

Faith1

<small>[ January 14, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
[QB]
You say you are willing... but do you? do you open up to her?

its a double edged sword, when i open up and talk she gives me the you would be happier with someone else speech, the i am who i am and thats who i am going to be speech. and finally the i am completly normal speech.

You aren't going to change her... You CAN change what you do. Do you discuss your feelings? w/out being accusatory? i.e. When we aren't physically intimate, I feel a loss in our connection? When we go long periods w/out SF, I feel....

I have become an expert with I statements, thats one thing the mens group has really helped me with. we practice it non stop I am very thankful for that.

I have generally found that when I make my H the CAUSE of my feelings, he is also not very receptive.

give me an example of saying something like "when we are not physically intimate with each other I am lonely and feel disconnected from you." without making her feel that she is the cause of it.

she isnt the cause of the feeling, however she is the one who is satisfied with how things are.

Second, you can't change how she ACTS towards you...

then why express the need or feeling? if the object isnt to inform them so that they can choose to act just as we are choosing to act then what is it? thats not me making her change, its me asking for what i need and offering change in kind.

but you can choose how you REACT... why do you choose hurt?

its not an immediate reaction that i choose, but just as the water drip in chinese torture the constant drip over time causes first irritation, then discomfort and finally pain.

I have also found that I used to push and push and push until my H did SAY something hurtful... I wanted him to OWN my feelings and feel responsible...

i do the opposite, which is probably just as bad if not worse. I express the feeling or need and clarify if the conversation even gets that far and then thats it. there is not long drawn out me trying to convince her or her trying to convince me, ill express a feeling she will tell me i have no right to feel that way or that i should just deal with it, or thats the way it is so get over it. and thats it.

I have read that you attend Bible study...

I do attend a mens group and while it is a spiritual group, its not a bible study nor is it specifically christian. many denominations and faiths are present and discussed.

does your wife?

nope, i think she has the same fear of going back to church and talking with others as she does about going to a marriage counselor. I think she is afraid to hear the truth. and i think that there is something inside her that she is keeping there by avoiding the truth. by not feeling sexual and by not getting close.

Would she be open to reading?

absolutly not! no reading no working on the relationship, no talks, no counselors... bottom line either i accept it as it is or.....

even my reading is a LB in her book, just more pressure for her to act to grow and work. she doesnt want to and doesnt want the pressure of me doing so.

I will check out the books, i am finding though that as i get more and more emotionally mature and healthy the more difficult it is to find happiness in my marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Faith1:
<strong>chaz,

Forgive me if you've already answered this somewhere... I don't lurk as much as I used to... these are not trick questions... I'm really wondering...</strong>

there are really only a few questions that ever get asked here, thats part of why i dont post as much anymore. and spend more time responding.

What have you done to seduce your W (Plan A)? ;)Are you making yourself irresistable?

appearently too much so, in the last week i have been approached by two husbands, of freinds of my wife, asking me what the heck i am doing as they have been told that they should get lessons in husbanding from me!

our jeweler last night told Steph in a conversation about the new ring she is putting together that the look she is going for is "high Maintenance" and then joked with her about how thats obvious anyway!! (She is honestly looking at a $35,000 diamond!! sheeez i feel like a chump she wears over $40,000.00 in jewelry on an average day and i cant get laid let alone a BJ)

What's different about you now, as opposed to the Chaz she fell in love with and wanted to make love to?

you see faith thats where my willingness to please created a huge hole for me. we had a couple of very good love making sessions when we were just dating, and even had a very hot session on the porch of my condo in denver (yea outside!!) but about 4 month before our wedding she asked that we stop and wait until we got married. and we never started back up.

I assumed that i wasnt doing enough wasnt pleasing her enough to create love and desire so i abandoned all to attempt to please her and generate that desire.

For example, if she feels compelled to get the laundry done instead of making love, what if it was already done?

she will create work if there is none. so if i were to hire a house keeper (again, yes i tried this) she will start selling cosmetics, and candles and and and. to occupy the time... she will do what ever it takes to make sure she is completely occupied with things to do so that she is not availible for me.. she will rent (and this is no joke) 8 movies to watch over a weekend if we have the time to watch 3. just so that there is pressure to watch as many as possible and no time for us alone.

Have you tried treating her like a queen? (Not for a day or two, but for weeks.... or months... ) Flowers, helping with housework, going on dates, compliments, support and encouragement, listening...

for our entire marriage, she was daddy's little princess and she still wears the crown.

she equates any time alone with me as an overature for sex. so she will not spend much time with me alone. we could be going to get our taxes done and if i suggest we get a sitter so we dont have the kids in the office with us, i am making a pass at her you would think i just grabbed her butt and made a lewd comment.

i think she brought an aversion into the marriage and I helped make it worse. I was too dim to see it. and she is unwilling to look at it.

she makes token jestures as though she is trying but it is usually a very small thing that she is doing for me and not for herself so she never heals. she knows how she is, thus the "you would be happier with someone else" speech but she isnt to a place where she will look inside and discover peace...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will check out the books, i am finding though that as i get more and more emotionally mature and healthy the more difficult it is to find happiness in my marriage.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the key... which is found in all the books I recommended... but ESPECIALLY in the Schnarch book is that YOU HAVE TO GROW, but you can't MAKE the other person grow...

However, your differentiating and growing almost FORCES the other person to grow and change... because you change the dynamics in the relationship... When you don't act in the 'normal' pattern, their acting in the 'normal' pattern doesn't make sense... and so there is growth... or separation...

when you reached this point before... this crucible in your relationship regarding SF... you had an affair... this is the test... how can you grow and differentiate in a HEALTHY way so that your wife can too? or, I don't rule out separation... I don't think that even the Harleys would recommend staying together IF SHE isn't meeting your needs and growing... BUT, I wouldn't try this on my own... I would want some professional help... I just wonder what the EXPERTS would have to say about this... what would they recommend?

Do you see someone? I know that my going to a therapist threw my H for a loop... he knew I was absolutely interested in growing and learning... with or without him...

This is from Schnarch's passionate Marriage:

"Technically, a dilemma is a situation necessitating a choice between two or more unpleasant alternatives."

"We try to avoid choosing (by remaining in difficult situations) to avoid losses inherent in giving up one option for another (i.e., a solution).

Schnarch describes this situation .... when it occurs in a relationship.... gridlock. He says that no one wants to face two-choice dilemmas. But, it is unavoidable. You get to make a choice, and then your partner gets to make a choice .... in response to your choice.

If one partner (your W) refuses to grow sexually .... thus contributing to your personal unhappiness .... your dilemma is to accept this as status quo, or not.

Schnarch says:

"We can agree to disagree as long as we are focused on feelings. When the issue is behavior, however, flexibility is reduced significantly. You can't agree to disagree about sex. When your spouse says he or she is never doing a particular sexual behavior, or never having sex again, you don't feel like saying, 'Thanks for sharing.'"

Pepper <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cali:
<strong> YOU HAVE TO GROW</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so i am choosing to grow.

why do i sit silently? what am i afraid of?

i do so out of fear that i will do damage instead of repair. out of fear that in sharing my needs she will choose to digress instead of progress.

what if she chooses to digress? why is that so disasterous for me? does it mean that I have failed? NO it means she made a choice and now I have to make another choice.

I am terribly afraid that by making choices that are healthy and good for me, that it will put an increadible pressure on her.

Why is she treating me like this??? because i let her. So i have to find a compassionate way to Not let her treat me this way comfortably within our marriage.

I have to open my mouth share my wants needs and desires to not be afraid of her responces. It pains me to see her discomfort.

i cannot protect her from her choices they are her choices. i have to be willing to see her in the role of best friend and lover and treat her that way, to share my most intimate thoughts to see her as capable of being that.

to prepare myself to diffuse the Disrespectful judgments, and negative responces.

but more than anything i have to open my mouth and talk.

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: chazbutler ]</small>

oh chaz.... I have just random thoughts for you...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I'm so sorry you are living with this frustration and pain...

I'm so proud of you for sticking it out.... choosing to remain married... choosing to be patient, loving, and accepting of your W for where she is....

and I think you are lucky to have her in your life... and she is lucky to have an H that fights so hard for the marriage.... I think so often we take for granted the gifts our mates offer us... cuz once they are gone... they're gone. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

i do so out of fear that i will do damage instead of repair. out of fear that in sharing my needs she will choose to digress instead of progress.

I have to open my mouth share my wants needs and desires to not be afraid of her responces.

I agree... if I'm understanding correctly. My XH was afraid to talk to me... to voice his needs... afraid of my responses, or afraid of hurting me. He didn't want to hurt me with things he was unhappy about. I wish I didn't make him feel that way... I wish he had more confidence to share with me, and LET ME RESPOND the only way I knew how... but at LEAST the truth would be out in the open. The truth hurts... sometimes... but it's the only way to have real choices.

i cannot protect her from her choices they are her choices. i have to be willing to see her in the role of best friend and lover and treat her that way, to share my most intimate thoughts to see her as capable of being that.

yes. I really like this. Best friend....

I wish I could help more....
Hang in there chaz!!!!
MB hugggggsssssssssss!!!!!!

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but more than anything i have to open my mouth and talk. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Yes, my friend you do... but please... please... please... get some help w/ this... check out the books...

The BIGGEST thing you learn in the Schnarch books is how NOT to be emotionally FUSED w/ your partner... but HOW TO 'hold onto yourself.' So that NO MATTER HOW your W responds... you are okay... you can react in a healthy way...

Also, ask for His help... ask Him to give you the words and the timing and that your W be open to hear... He listens..

Prayers,
Cali