PS The email sounded wonderful, very expressive and non judgemental. Good plan a email <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Layli

Dear Devastated,
At this point your WW is way deep in the Fog. The way you describe her sounds exactly like my WH during the first part of his A. He too got irritated any time I tried to bring up our R. He would always turn things around to make it sound like I was the guilty one or that I was pushing him away, no matter WHAT I did.

And you know what? I think that at this point, anything we do IS pushing them away. They're so full of guilt & yet want to justify what they're doing. So they deliberately twist our every word and action to make us seem horrible. When I tried to kiss my WH or hold his hand, he'd accuse me of trying to force things. If I tried to start conversations, he would resent my intruding into his space. And everything I did was considered to be "controlling".

Only after my WH finally decided to file for Dv did I "let go". And only when I let go did he start talking to me - really talking to me. It was funny that when I decided not to worry about him, when I went about my life without thinking how it affected him, all of a sudden he started following ME & wanting to be in the same room & do things with me.

"Letting go" doesn't mean not doing a Plan A. It's very important that your WS know that you still love them & want to save your M. So you still act loving & kind to them. BUT ONLY WHEN THEY LET YOU OR WHEN IT IS COMPLETELY NATURAL! That was the key, I think. I was forcing my niceness on WH so that he felt smothered, out of control, confused. I was desperate, and he felt it.

You sound desperate, Devastated. And that's the surest way to make your WW run in the opposite direction. Just like she seems to be doing.

Now I'm no expert on how to get your WW to return to you. I certainly lost my M. But I see you doing the same things I did, and I know how that turned out for me! So I suggest you go read up on Plan A and really study the principles. Because desperation is not one of them. Neither is focusing on your WS to the exclusion of yourself. You seem to have lost yourself in this process. I know that's easy to do, because you so want to save your M that you don't want to concentrate on yourself - probably seems like a waste of time & energy to you. You want to concentrate on your WW instead.

Put your focus on you. That's the only person you can control - yourself. Understand how you contributed to your wife's behavior and to the problems in your M. Figure out how you can change that. It may not come to you today or tomorrow or next week. But sometime, as you think about it, you'll realize where you went wrong & how you can fix yourself.

But don't beat yourself up for your mistakes in the M. Understand that your WW is responsible for her own actions - anything she did/does is her choice. All you can do is show her or tell her that you understand your part in the problems, and offer to work with her to fix them.

And don't forget to start concentrating on your own happiness. Stop focusing on WW by getting a life outside of her. Talk to friends & family. Find activities to keep you busy. Spend time with your kids (which I'm sure you do). The point is, the part about Plan A that made the most impact on my WH was that I finally found peace within myself.

Hope you find that peace too, Devastated.

<small>[ January 23, 2003, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: SH94 ]</small>

I anm 38, wife will be 32 in Feb. Married 8 yrs. in june, together 12 yrs.
Everything is just so confusing. If I could just get her to talk to me. I feel like telling her that we should sell the house, because if she leaves, there is no way that I could make the payments and daycare for our son, and after hours care for our daughter that's in kindergarden.
I just feel helpless at times, and then I get angry. My problem is that I don't show my anger, I just bottle it up. I just don't understand how someone can throw the life they had away, expecially when there are children envolved. I can understand drugs, booze, and abuse, but we have none of those problems.
Thanks for listening everybody. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

ID-

IMO you're doing a good job with your Plan A, just keep refining the way you communicate and continue learning about the concepts put forward by SH. The key (which I unfortunately didn't get the grasp of) is to not pressure her and make your M a safe place for her to return to. I know, lord I know, how DIFFICULT that is with all the anger you're talking about. The sad truth is that WS's don't act rational so you can't expect to reason with them. Talking with them about potential loss of M, family, finances, etc. is futile when the fog rolls in...As someone on these boards once pointed out, the question a BS sometimes has to ask themselves is, Do you want to right or Married?

Dear Devastated,

((((hugs))) for you and yours. Just wanted you to know that most of us have asked ourselves the same questions. How can they throw everything that they used to value away. (((( FOG)))) I understand bottling up the anger. Me to. Don't, vent here, remember that plan A is about you. While they are in the fog, everything you do will be wrong. controling, manipulative, ect... Here we understand the unexpressable hurt from experience. Life is a great but harsh teacher.

This site has saved my sanity, use it it will help you,

I just wish there was a way to get her to go to counciling. All councilors have told me that if I started by myself, then my wife would not be able to join in later.
I don't even know how to talk to my own wife anymore, it's like I don't even know her.
Could anybody reccommend any good books that would help me, and also help her? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hi Devastated:

We are definitely going through the same thing with our WSes. I feel like you do. I want to just shake him into reality. However, I have been counseling with Steve Harley. I would recommend it if you can for at least one session althought it is expensive. He has been sooo very helpful to me.

He keeps reminding me that my Ws is like an addict that will have to go through withdrawal from a drug. There is no reasoning with him. It is hard for me, like you, to hold back. However, that is necessary to keep from being DEMANDING and CONTROLLING which is a major lovebuster that will drive them back into the arms of the OP. PLAN A can really work. It has worked for me. A great thing that I have realized is that the OP does not know about MB principles and is probably making lots of mistakes. We have the knowledge and understanding of what is necessary to work on our marriages. What's so hard is to not be EMOTIONAL which is another recommendation from Steve. He says follow the MB RULES for success.

I'll be talking to you.

Thanks Mimi, right now I'm so pissed I'm ready to eat nails!!!!!!! I feel like a laundry service, and when the kids are acting up, it's even worse. I want to yell and scream at her so bad, but I have to try and remember that it will do no good. I wish I could afford to have some sessions with Steve, or just be able to talk with someone who has been throught this. I feel so frustrated and helpless.
Thanks for letting me vent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Dev
I'm going to be here for you to talk to. I know how hard it is.

Think of the OP as being like a drug that your wife is addicted to. Its helped me to think of my husband as being sick and needing love to get through this.

Can you get out of the house when you get frustrated? I find it helpful to work out or to go for a drive (only if you can stay safe). Take the kids with you. I play my music loudly. You have to choose the right songs though because music can get you down.

Just try to bear with it and know that you are not alone.

Dev,
I have been reading your posts and getting caught up on your story, we have been where you are or we are where you are and it is natural and needed for you to get angry and frustrated and that's where this board comes in mighty handy.

With what I have read you are doing a terrific plan A, and I know how hard it must be on you with the kids and all, do you get help with the kids at all so you can get away for yourself some? You asked about Books:
1)His Needs Her Needs
2)Surviving An Affair

Those are 2 off the bat that I can recommend for you to start with, I'm sure others will also give you their thoughts.

It's baby steps every minute, hour, day, week, month...if you ever needed to learn patience, guess what?? Time to learn it. You have to take care of yourself also, and as you are doing a good job plan Aing for your wife, you have to take care and Plan A yourself in a way, nurture and acknowledge the man that you are in having so much love for another that you are going through a living he!!; but knowing that you will be stronger and all the more healthier for it.

Vent here and keep posting, We'll be here for you. Take Care

Thanks everybody,
Me biggest problem w Plan A, is I find it so difficult to try and deposite LU's when we hardly communicate with each other, and I don't think taking care of the kids and doing the laundry are deposites for her. Iv'e sent her an email explaining some of my feelings, but she has not read it yet. I quess the next thing is to write her a letter and put it somewhere she will find it.
I'm still waiting to find my last piece of evidence to prove at least an EA.
I will try and order His Needs Her Needs, but I'm scared that if I get her to read it, she would apply it to the OM. But I guess this whole thing is a gamble, and only the Lord can work this out.

P.S. Does anybody ever think "I wonder what the WS would think if you were to get in a terrible accident or have a severe illness." I'm not saying that I'm contemplating doing anything to myself. Just wondering if I have the same thoughts as everybody else.

P.S.S. The reason for me thinking like this is because about 1 1/2 years ago, I went in for what you would call a snip snip. When my wife was driving me home I passed out and went into a type of ceasure. Up untill recently she always hatted to think about it. She would always say that she wound'nt now what to do without me.
Just wondering.

I'm Devestated, sometimes I think during the fof, if I'd dropped dead he may have thought yeah!I don't have to worry about it anymore!
My WH went on a weeks trip with OW, never left where he was going, of course didnt' tell us it was OW, no phone number, no calls. We could have all died while he was gone and it would not have mattered!
Now? I have no idea. I guess now he'd care. I know how you feel. Wondering if they give a dam-.
I think when they were involved with OP, they didn't care is my opinion.
We have conditions in son and I that could be fatal. So how could he go off with her and not even call to check!
So this doesnt' answer your question I'm sure. But don't ever think of harming yourself to see because it probably would backfire!
I'm sure you wouldn't.
God bless, LouLou

devastated, I am a bs and we know exactly what you're going through. We bs,have been in your shoes. I tried to get my spouse to go to counseling also before he fell into an affair, but he vehemently refused. He told me that I had better not say anything to any friends to try to talk him into it or it would just make things worse. I tried my best to get him to open up to me, which the only things he told me where pretty much the same things that your wife told you. He didn't feel the same for me, it wasn't me, it was him and that if he didn't feel any better after the holidays that he was going to leave. This was 2 yrs ago. I felt like I had been punched in the stomach. He was age 39 and I feared midlife crisis so I tried everything that I could think of to help him and our marriage, I asked him if there was someone else and he denied it. I then asked him to please not get involved with anyone else, that it would only make things worse. He said if I do that to you, then I will leave. Guess what? 1yr later after living through he$$ and trying to stay sane I found out he had an A. I tried so hard to plan A and I didn't even know about plan A then, didn't know about this site, but he did what he wanted to do anyway. He turned into a person that I didn't know at all. I know it's hard, but try to focus on taking care of yourself as the others have said. When we're focusing so much on the spouse, it does seem to drive them further. My ws and I are in recovery now and doing well. I guess my point is, no matter what we do, we can't stop them from taking the wrong road if they can't stop themselves. They see us as an irritation until they come out of the fog. It's really hard, what you're going through and I'm sorry that you're having to go through it. If you can,take some time for yourself to do something, spend time with friends,not opposite sex friends. Hang in there. It doesn't seem fair for one to have to do all the work, believe me we know.

Dev,
How are you doing?

You got a lot of great advice on this thread. I just read through it and it helped me alot. Like you, I find it hard to hold back.

Give us an update.

I have my good days, and then I have my bad ones Mimi. I just wish I could get her to talk to me. I also breaks my heart when she does'nt wear her rings (which she has'nt in 2 wks). It just scares me when I think of trying to support our 2 children and me (if it comes to that), on 1 income. I'm trying to get a job at the University, and if I get it (Lord willing), then financally we would be ok. Would everybody that reads this, please say a prayer that I may get this job?
One more question. Is the bottom line to plan A, showing the spouse that you love them, but also showing them that you are planning things without them? Or am I way off base?
Also, my wife has been here the last 3 nights. She is'nt acting any differently, but at least she is here. Still not 100% sure on the A. I guess I'll just have to wait till D-day.
Thank you everybody
P.S. My profile name has changed to protect the innocent. lol