Hi - I haven't posted in a while but today I'm looking for some good advice. My H and I have been separated for about 4 months now (since I found out about the A) We are now in the process of working on our marriage. We have had a lot of good conversations which have left a lot of possitive feelings (at least for me). My problem is I'm starting to get that "gut" feeling again - and I don't know if it's just paranioa or if it is a real feeling. I ignored this feeling for a year only to find out my suspisions were right. My H has been spending a lot of time with me.. staying over and we have been doing a lot of talking. For the last few weeks he has been staying over for a few days and then I don't see or sometimes even hear from him for a couple of days. He says he wants to have time to himself but sometimes lies about where he is. Two weeks ago he said that he wanted to come back home - but whenever I bring up the topic he shuts down and talks around it.

We spent the weekend away together without the kids and it went really well, and we both had a good time together. Since we have come back he has been very distant. I tried talking to him again about moving back home but he seems like he is avoiding the topic. He stayed here on Sunday night and has been using what I see as excuses to not stay here or even come over. He avoids a lot of my emails too. These are things he used to do when he was with the OW. His mood seems to go up and down a lot between depression and being happy. I just don't know how to take him these days - he says he loves me and wants to come home but his actions are very different. Anyone have any insight???

I just don't know how to take him these days - he says he loves me and wants to come home but his actions are very different.
When words and actions conflict, actions are usually the correct indicator.

These are things he used to do when he was with the OW.
This looks like your answer.

His mood seems to go up and down a lot between depression and being happy. Anyone have any insight???
Withdrawl can also cause these symptoms, but you can usually trust your gut feelings. If you are afraid to judge him, watch him closely. There is no need to put a lot of effort into a false recovery. Continue to do what you need to do.

What boundries do you have in place? Has he made himself an open book? Given you access to e-mail passwords, cell phone log etc?
What things is he doing to regain your trust?

I haven't read your story, have you read SAA? and do you have a plan for recovery?

SS

Please don't ignore your suspicions. He is no doubt still seeing the OW. Nor is he being honest with you. I would suggest moving into Plan B at this point. You are not in recovery as long as he continues to see the OW and you need to be protected against this destructive behavior.

You say your H is working on recovery and I would disagree. He is working on having his cake and eating it too. You can't go by his WORDS [he is completely untrustworthy] but MUST go by his actions.

The worst thing you could do right now is even THINK of allowing him to come home. If he comes home you will have to live with the nightmare up close. At least in Plan B, you don't have to see his affair up close.

Are you in counseling with Steve Harley? If there is any way you can do it, I would suggest calling the Harleys. In the meantime, here is an excellent article about Plan A/B:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Thank you both for your advice. My H has been back with the OW once since since deciding that he wanted to work on our marriage. He came clean with me at that point. He gave me access to his voice mail at work and allowed me to listen to messages from her. He spoke with her and asked her not to contact him any more and she continued everyday for about a week. One morning I checke his voice mail at work and after listening to another message from her I called her myself and reminded her that my H had asked her not to contact him anymore and I would like her to stop also. My H innitially got really angry as he said that he would rather we just ignore her and not respond to her messages. He at that point changed his voice mail password and hasn't given it back to me since (about a month and a half ago) he has told me every day whether he has heard from her or not. About a month ago he sent a no contact letter to her. I want to be as aware as possible. What are some signs of withdrawl and how do they differ form signs that he is back with the OW?

Thank you both for your advice. My H has been back with the OW once since since deciding that he wanted to work on our marriage. He came clean with me at that point. He gave me access to his voice mail at work and allowed me to listen to messages from her. He spoke with her and asked her not to contact him any more and she continued everyday for about a week. One morning I checke his voice mail at work and after listening to another message from her I called her myself and reminded her that my H had asked her not to contact him anymore and I would like her to stop also. My H innitially got really angry as he said that he would rather we just ignore her and not respond to her messages. He at that point changed his voice mail password and hasn't given it back to me since (about a month and a half ago) he has told me every day whether he has heard from her or not. About a month ago he sent a no contact letter to her. I want to be as aware as possible. What are some signs of withdrawl and how do they differ form signs that he is back with the OW?

Anybody have any more advice????

crazy4you- I'm with the others in that you should trust your instincts and not put alot of effort into a false recovery. If he's serious about R, he'll come back home to work on things. In addition, he won't have any problems accounting for his whereabouts at any time. The fact that you haven't been given the new password to his voicemail is a big red flag IMO. Good luck with this....

I certainly understand the criticisms that I am reading in these responses as I myself have been guilty of such actions on other discussion boards (after reading this I will be less quick to judge) . I feel it should be noted that these are &#8220;personal opinions&#8221; of folks who have been in a similar or not so similar situations in the past. It is concerning to myself (being crazy4you&#8217;s spouse and that these comments are of my behavior) that these judgments have been made with such little information and a single sided description of the events leading from the revelation of the affair. I find it more troubling that these opinions can quickly manifest in ones mind to become fact and I worry about the Mob rules theory being applicable here. I hope to not be faced with a comment @ home like &#8220;well everyone thinks you&#8230;.&#8221; This is where you see the difference between, albeit goodhearted, the laymen&#8217;s opinions and professional advice. I suspect that a professional would ask more questions before passing judgment.

Here are a few facts:

I have no trouble reveling my passwords etc. I felt it was necessary to change my work voicemail password as I found my wife and the other woman in a continuous &#8220;do loupe&#8221;. I realized this was furthering the contact. I could continue to deal with the other woman by not responding to her calls and eventually she would loose interest. Instead at night when I would go home I was faced to deal with an argument my wife had with the OW on the phone that day&#8230; This had happened several times when I said no more&#8230; The call from the other woman also increased during this time threatening me with some sort of court action if the (in her opinion) harassment from my wife did not stop. After changing my password the contact had stopped in the span of a week. Oh and in case you are wondering&#8230; yes, she now has the password again.

It was mentioned that my spouse should *Quote* &#8220;not put alot of effort into a false recovery&#8221;.

Well I can only hope she does not listen to this advice. I love her from the bottom of my heart and hope to be home soon.

*Quote* &#8220;he won't have any problems accounting for his whereabouts at any time.&#8221;

I have been quite good about reveling where I am when I&#8217;m not @ home&#8230; I also stay with my parents and my wife usually call&#8217;s my parents to check to see that I did actually sleep there&#8230;

*Quote* If he's serious about R, he'll come back home to work on things&#8221;&#8230;

I am the one asking to come home. I have asked several times over the last month or 2. However we have children and the timing and mechanics have come into question from my wife each time I have asked&#8230; we typically agree that we need to talk to the children before I move back. But to date we have not. Over this period we have also found an interesting pattern. During the x-mas break I was home for 2 weeks. During this time we did not spend one minute discussing our issues&#8230; we agreed that it was so easy to revert back to &#8220;the way it was&#8221;. So I moved out and that week we talked about us more than we had in months.

I did lie last week when I took a day off of work and did not tell my wife. She called my coworkers to find out why I was not responding to her e-mails&#8230;. In retrospect this was a terrible idea and I believe the reason behind her concerns.

Just thought I&#8217;d share a little. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Crazy4you2,
Thanks for posting. it is refreshing to see a wayward spouse here wanting to share their side.
I think we all hope people will take advice with a grain of salt as none of us are proffessionals. Unforunately, as is the nature of these things, we often do only get one side of the story. The friendship and help we have extended to your wife during this difficult time is also extended to you. Feel free to post. We would love to be a sounding board for you also.
We just want to see a happy ending and healing for both of you. Kudos to you for sharing this part of your wifes life. Sometimes it helps to share things with people in similar situations.
I wish you both well on the road to recovery.
Good luck,
Layli

crazy4u2,

Hopefully you will begin to put this much energy into recovering your marriage and reassuring your wife. As you can see from her post, she is not assured at all and has many doubts. So instead of "judging" the folks on this forum for trying to help your very upset wife, I hope you will instead focus on doing things that alleviate her fears. I wish you the best of luck and a successful marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mr. and Mrs. Crazy - what the heck are you doing? Talking past each other?

Here's an old fart's advice: Make an appointment with a counselor ASAP and quit acting like a couple of children. YOUR children are being hurt. What do you think they're learning? It's OK for Dad to come and go and Mom to plow old ground with OW?

Shame on both of you.

Now, get to work.

Mr. Crazy - you tell Sweetcakes that there will be NO MORE CONTACT. Period. Nada. Zip, zilch, zero. ANY contact on your part and your wife is entirely justified in bleeding you dry and she'll Have the evidence to do it.

Mrs. Crazy - STOP, STOP, STOP contacting OW as well. This is not about her. YOU look inside yourself and figure out what YOUR contributions were to the poor marital environment that Mr. Crazy used to justify his stupid decisions.

I challenge BOTH of you to post here daily and fess up to what you're doing to promote recovery and also what STUPID things you've done along the way. If you don't report a STUPID thing, you're not being honest and I'm gonna ride yer butts.

You do not want to mess with me.

Got it?

Don't make him open up a can of whoopass! It could get ugly!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

This is Crazy4you2 posting under craz4you's name.

Layli, thanks for your kind words.

MelodyLane, I&#8217;m a very passionate person in most things I do. I now believe there is much to be gained from communicating openly with my wife. I will put all the effort and passion I have in me to repair the damage and improve the situation that resulted in my looking else ware. After all I&#8217;m here discussing the situation not running from it. I suspect this is not that usual.
You are correct when you say she still feels not assured and has many doubts&#8230; This I work on every day. But this will naturally take time and I will be here every time to fight for my marriage and dispel any doubts.

Worthatry, not sure how to respond to ya buddy. Unfortunately we are not talking face to face therefore I can&#8217;t truly gauge your tone here.

Let me talk a little about what you have brought up.

Councilling: We have had terrible luck in this department. That is not to say we will not do it again in fact we are discussing it now. However we will never go back to those that we have used in the past. They all thought I was just this wonderful guy and thought my wife had problems&#8230; This is plain and simply not the truth. I am an *******. And my wife could melt the heart of an Ice God.

Your children are being hurt: Wile this is certainly true, they have been exposed to as little as possible. There is no fighting here. Mommy is not crying. Daddy is not yelling. My wife is the greatest mother on earth and as such seess the children have the love and assurances that they need. They are however loosing some of there time they should have with each of us&#8230; This healing process is long and difficult.

Dad to come and go and mom to plow old ground:
Well let&#8217;s put this into perspective. I&#8217;m typically away 1 or 2 work nights a week. That leaves me in the home with my wife and children 5 to 6 days a week. 2 of those nights it&#8217;s daddy night when my wife teaches a class @ the college.
As for my wife plowing old ground&#8230; I asked her to stop and she did. What more could I want?

Shame on both of you:
Interesting judgment&#8230; This is based on?
My actions have been despicable and through it all my wife have held it all together&#8230; Our home our children and keeping hope! She is the reason we are on the road to recovery today. She is the reason I have been able to come to terms with what I have done and still look her in the eye. I was very ashamed of what I did and consequently wanted to run from her, her family and also my family. Shame on me!
My wife deserves no shame! She called the OW as she was leaving messages on my voicemail @ work. Justified as it was it was not helping to end the contact.

As for posting the stupid things I have done&#8230; Is there a maximum length to a post??
I&#8217;ll leave that for another time.

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: crazy4you ]</small>

Crazy4you2 again...
Unfortunately the word I chose is not allowed. I called myself the 3-letter word hole that is attached to the rectum.

I am an *******.

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: crazy4you ]</small>

Crazy4you...have you tried counseling with the Harley's? I would highly recommned it. My FWH and I have completed 6-7 sessions. He really helps you to process the A, learn hows, whys and learn the lessons. Then he helps you to build plans to get to a spot where life and M can be good again. He doesn't preach, he coaches!

We are also both in IC (same counselor separate appointments).

Best wishes to you and your W!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crazy4you:
<strong>Shame on both of you:
Interesting judgment; This is based on?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....what I've read so far.

So, you agree to NO MORE CONTACT???

Mrs. Crazy?

What do you agree to?

I must apologize&#8230; I&#8217;m @ home and was logged in as my wife&#8230; (crazy4you) The last 2 posts were by me Crazy4you2. The WS

Worthatry, I do not recall misleading you but I must have&#8230; There has been no contact for a few months.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by crazy4you:
<strong>Worthatry, I do not recall misleading you but I must have; There has been no contact for a few months.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, I hear ya, but
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did lie last week when I took a day off of work and did not tell my wife. She called my coworkers to find out why I was not responding to her e-mails….</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...this equates to "contact."

You gotta be squeaky clean or you will not regain trust. Do you understand the Policy of Radical Honesty? Why aren't you implementing it?

Crazy4you2 here again.

Yes... *big sigh*...... I understand in principal. Are you referring to a specific written Policy of Radical Honesty on this board? If you are my answer is no. My wife and I have only scratched the surface of the techniques of this board.

I have to say worthatry that you have my back up. It&#8217;s best I go and have a coffee and re visit this a little later... my wife should be around tonight!

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: crazy4you ]</small>

The Rule of Honesty

Honesty and Openness is one of the ten most important emotional needs identified in marriage, which means that when it's met, it can trigger the feeling of love. But it's counterpart, dishonesty, is one of the five most destructive Love Busters. When spouses are dishonest, they destroy the love they have for each other.

But there is a third reason that honesty is crucial in marriage. Honesty is the only way that you and your spouse will ever come to understand each other. Without honesty, the adjustments that are crucial to the creation of compatibility in your marriage cannot be made. Without honesty, your best efforts to resolve conflicts will be wasted because you will not understand each other well enough to find mutually acceptable solutions.

Most couples do the best they can to make each other happy, at least for a while. But their efforts, however sincere, are often misdirected. They aim at the wrong target. Ignorance, not lack of effort, is often the most important cause of their ultimate downfall.

Couples are not only ignorant of ways to improve their marriages; they are often ignorant of the problems themselves. To avoid conflict, they sometimes deliberately misinform each other as to their feelings, personal history, activities, and plans. This not only leads to a failure to meet an important emotional need, and a withdrawal of love units when the deception is discovered, it also makes marital conflicts impossible to resolve. After all, how can you and your spouse solve a problem if your cards are not on the table?

To help you understand how honest you need to be to have a successful marriage, I have written the Policy of Radical Honesty. I call it "radical" because that's how many see my position on the subject. But I view my policy as simply advocating complete honesty in marriage. In our culture I guess that's a radical idea.

The Policy of Radical Honesty
Reveal to your spouse as much
information about yourself as you know;
your thoughts, feelings, habits, likes,
dislikes, personal history, daily activities,
and plans for the future.

To help explain this policy, I have broken it down into four parts:

1. EMOTIONAL HONESTY: Reveal your emotional reactions, both positive and negative, to the events of your life, particularly to your spouse's behavior.

2. HISTORICAL HONESTY: Reveal information about your personal history, particularly events that demonstrate personal weakness or failure.

3. CURRENT HONESTY: Reveal information about the events of your day. Provide your spouse with a calendar of your activities, with special emphasis on those that may affect your spouse.

4. FUTURE HONESTY: Reveal your thoughts and plans regarding future activities and objectives.

To some extent this policy seems like motherhood and apple pie. Who would argue that it's not a good idea to be honest? But in my years of experience as a marriage counselor, I have constantly struggled with the belief of many clients that dishonesty can be a good idea under certain conditions. Moreover, pastors and counselors themselves often advise dishonesty when a spouse has committed a particularly thoughtless act, such as infidelity. And many marital therapists warn against complaining, something that some consider one of the seven deadly sins of marriage. So instead of complaining, spouses often stuff their feelings and try to put a good face on a bad situation.

Granted, dishonesty can be a good short-term solution to marital conflict. It will probably get you off the hook for a few days or months or keep the problem on the back burner. But it's a terrible long-term solution. If you expect to live with each other for the next few years and still be in love, dishonesty can get you into a great deal of trouble.