As those following the ALS saga know, my W has been in her own place for almost 3 months now, and I've been attempting to open up a dialogue with her again, just to be friends even, in the hopes that we might be able to reconcile. She is still seeing OM as far as I know, which is of course making things difficult.

Well, the last time W and I talked, 2 weeks ago, she and I got into some relationship talk, divorce was brought up, and the phone call ended with her crying after I basically spilled my guts about wanting to reconcile. It didn't go very well, and she rushed off the phone, probably due to her feeling sadness and guilt. It was a step back for sure. Thursday had become our regular phone call night and last Thursday, she didn't want to talk to me.

So here we are at today. Thursday. Last week, when she turned down the phone call via email, she suggested I call her tonight. I had planned to do that, but she beat me to the punch! The phone rang around 5:15, and I was on the phone with her until 7:45. A 2 and a half hour phone call! And I didn't even have to initiate the call.

I think I did okay. In short, no moves at all towards reconciliation, but I managed to not LB once, no relationship talk, no divorce talk. Just friendly upbeat chat.

We spent the entire call just talking about general stuff, nothing heavy at all. I had my checklist of talking points, so a lot of it was nice and light, we talked about the cat, I thanked her for a blanket she bought me, told her some general news about friends and neighbors, and about a few things I'd bought for the house.

Taxes were brought up and there wasn't an argument at all, she told me that her W2 should come to the house here and that I should feel free to open it and file our taxes jointly. So that was good.

This was a bit uncomfortable, she asked me if she could borrow the truck for an afternoon sometime, because she had a chair she might be purchasing where she worked and she needed a means to get it home. I offered to pick it up and drive it and her to her apartment for her, as well as help her carry it up the 3 flights, but she didn't seem to like that idea. It sounded more like she just wanted to take the truck, use it, and bring it back, keeping me out of it as much as possible. Basically, I'm good enough to use the truck but it doesn't warrant spending any time with me or getting to even see her place. She definitely does not want me at her apartment at all, even just coming in for a moment. I'm not sure why. I fear it may have something to do with OM, not wanting me to get too close for fear of hurting him. But I may be overreacting. Still, feels very doormatish, not sure how to handle that one. I don't see what would be wrong, if she wanted to get this chair to her place so bad, to let me drive it there instead of just turning over the truck to her for the day.

Some of the things are still hard to hear from her, like when she's talking about her plans for the future -- It just seems like she's not involving me at all in them. She's talking about moving to other states, other places, going back to school, things like that. She said she wanted to be a Kindergarten teacher someday, and to go back to school for that. She said she wanted to take up a musical instrument, the violin perhaps. I of course validated her on all these things, and said they were great plans and aspirations and that I know she would succeed. I did a lot of validating, telling her that I was proud of how well she was doing with her job and that she has always been capable of doing anything she puts her mind to.

We spoke about her job A LOT, she told me about co-workers that annoyed her, her supervisor that she gets along great with, how she loves her job (which is a shame because of course OM works there), etc. She talks about saving her money to buy things for her apartment, she wants to get a big fish tank like we have here because she misses our fish. That's a pretty permanent type of thing for sure. And she doesn't sound as sure about moving back with her parents this summer anymore either. I did ask her if that was still her plan, and she said she wasn't sure. She just said she wants to get out of this state. That's all she knows right now. I told her I wasn't sure I wanted to stay here anymore, either, which is true -- Also hoped it would help her see that we wouldn't have to stay here if she came back. But that didn't seem to interest her at all.

She says she's not depressed at all anymore. A far cry from what I heard 2 weeks ago when she said she was depressed and needed anti-depressants. I just in passing mentioned anti-D's to her since she said she was going to the doctor for a few other things (she's having knee problems and migrane problems), and she said she didn't need that stuff, she was feeling great and was not depressed. End of depression discussion.

She mentioned her low finances again, though it seems she's spending away pretty well, she even bought a Playstation 2 game for a playstation she is "borrowing" from a friend (wonder who that is?) -- If I was broke, I wouldn't be spending $50 on video games. She told me she was still unable to get a credit card. I offered to help her, said if there was anything I could do or if she needed anything, let me know. She said what I did for her with the car insurance was enough, and I should let her know what she owes me. I told her we could talk about that when she is in better shape financially.

She said she'd like to stop by sometime and get her mail, and I told her anytime is fine, just to let me know when she'd like to do that.

So, I assume that the next step is to send her a short mail tomorrow telling her it was great talking to her tonight, and to let me know when she wants to come by? In the past it seems like inviting her to do anything socially, coffee, dinner, even watch a movie or tv show together met with very cold response, so I don't think I should suggest anything like that. I think I should just let her tell me when she'd like to stop by and pick up her mail, and let the visit be as long or as short as she'd like it to be.

I think I did well in practicing patience, as the phone call was purely platonic, we were friends and friends only, and I did not push regarding our relationship, getting together, or anything. Sadly, it didn't leave me feeling very satisfied, I hope it at least did something positive regarding her feelings towards me, but I can't help but feel rather empty afterwards. She mentioned a lot of things she was doing with friends, bars she was going to, etc, it really sounds like she has started a new life (she had no friends here before d-day that she did anything with) and it does seem like she's getting along quite well with her new life.

But hey, at least it's better than the last call went, right?

ALS

ALS, great to hear your talk went well. Yes, very doormatish but such is the lot of the BS who wants to save his/her M. Big OY. NO LB's is the important thing. Just remember, baby steps. Remember to go into each contact, wheter in person or via phone/email, not expecting anything. Hey, at least that way we be too disappointed, right? Kudos bud, just do what you can, when you can, and take care of yourself.

MTD

ALS:

I think you did well, but did you notice something? What you told us she and you talked about was HER. Not you, not what you're doing, how you're doing, what you're planning (except the few comments about you wanting to move to another state after she'd said that).

How bout next time you have some things to say about how you're doing, what you're planning, how well you are moving on with your life... All without LBing, of course.

Let her wonder what you're up to. I think it's clear she doesn't want to lose you, at least as a friend, but her telling you her plans seem to be more to gauge your reaction to her "independence" than real progress reports.

Just some thoughts.
-Qfwfq

MTD - Thanks, I will remember to keep the expectations low. I guess my biggest issue is that I do believe I will have to let her go completely from my life someday, if we get a Dv. I'm not one of those people who believes he can go on being a friend to his spouse after a divorce, perhaps if she wasn't seeing anyone, sure, but I don't have any interest in seeing her, even as a friend, if she is dating someone else. Perhaps that's not the way to feel about things but it's the way I do feel. I am of course content to be a friend to her right now, but it is in the hopes that it will lead to a reconciliation. I know it's not something I need to be clear about, but it is what I am hoping for. I just need to remain patient, I think that's my best bet with all of this. No pressure.

T-Zero: Actually there were more things about me as well...I told her about my plans with friends this Superbowl weekend, told her of my plans to attend a rock concert in a couple months, plans to visit friends in Florida in March, things I have bought for the house (including a brand new mattress to replace the one she took from our spare bedroom, a clear case of me moving on)...So I did do a lot to also tell her what I have been up to as well. Actually, that was sort of the first half of the call, on me, the second half switched over to mostly her.

She seemed to enjoy telling me about her life and job, yes, and I do worry a bit that she was just trying to get me used to her independence and point out what she was doing on her own, perhaps in a way to say "Hey, look, I'm doing good on my own and I don't need you anymore". I don't see it as any sort of "progress report" as you say, definitely no progress being made as far as us. 3 months since D-Day I have yet to once see a glimmer from her that she would want to work on the M. I do agree that she seems to like having me as a friend, but that may be her motivation and that does frighten me -- She may just want to be friends, but still get the divorce.

For now, I am going to continue focusing on myself, keeping the few interactions I have with my W positive and upbeat, and be patient, hoping she might eventually show some sort of interest in us again. One thing's for sure, I don't plan to take any more steps backward, it can only get better from here, even if she brings up Dv, my days of LBing are over.

ALS

By the way, I may hafta start a new thread on this, but are there any TAX experts reading this?

I'm trying to work out our taxes now, and my refund was HUGE until I added in my W's earnings. She didn't earn much but I guess her salary was enough to bring my refund WAY down.

Even if I file seperately, it seems like we make out even worse. But filing jointly, my refund went down over $3,000 when I added in her W2!

I'm using Turbotax so it's easy to make quick changes to things. I assume that only ONE of us, if we file seperately, can claim the mortgage interest expenses as a deduction, correct?

If this is true, my W is making out REALLY well if I allow us to file jointly. It looks like she'd owe $900 if she filed on her own (and couldn't claim any of the mortgage interest expenses).

Any suggestions on how I handle this? I assume the nice, Plan A thing to do is for us to file jointly even though it ends up costing me money. Not much, mind you, but I'll get less back than if I filed seperately (but it would cost her a LOT more).

If anyone has any idea, either on the tax questions OR how I should handle it, love to hear from ya, I may start a new thread with TAX in the title to get the attention of some tax experts though if I have to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks!

ALS

ALS,

Can you file the way that provides the mmost refund and then split the $?

That probably would be the fairest thing to do.

Kily,

That's what I was figuring I'd do, yeah. By filing jointly and not making her file on her own, I'm going to save her $900. So that's a pretty nice thing for me to do, I'd say.

When I sent her an email yesterday regarding the taxes, she even wrote me back and said she'd pay ME the money I'd lose by filing jointly if I just did that to avoid her having to pay the $900.

But I think I may still split the return with her anyway. Just to be nice. Even though I'd get more money back personally if I just filed on my own.

ALS

ALS-

We exchanged posts on this topic before, but your figures are correct- it is much more advatageous to file jointly vs. separately as long as the two of you agree to an equitable split of any refund or payment owed the government.

There are many ways to calculate this, but you need to do what is best. When it comes to the mortgage interest, you definitely need to remember that it is you (like myself) that is still in the home and making the payment since the day that she left.

Bottom line, I would do exactly what you are going to do- split your refund with her down the middle or as equitably as you can. I make about 3-4 times what my wife makes, but I don't want to be causing problems over a few thousand dollars so I am going to be completely fair with her. I would suggest you do the same as well. The difference between the two of us is your wife definitely needs the money, mine doesn't as she is fully capable of supporting herself. That makes it even more important that you help your wife as best you can if you want to stay in a good Plan A with her.

You also asked for an update on my story since our lives are running so parallel. I'll post it this next week and get any and all help that I can from you and others. Bottom line, next Sunday we are getting together face to face for the first time since the beginning of November. Additionally, we haven't even spoken since the beginning of December while strictly e-mailing each other in the interim. It should be interesting to say the least, I'll post more of the story early next week for your opinion/help.

Good Luck, file jointly!!

Let me get this straight...You'll lose $3,000 by filing jointly, she'll have to pay $900 by filing separately.

If this is right...You file first...get the $3000 extra....give her a check for the $900 to send in with her tax return...then split the other $2,100 equally. You both come out ahead!

jmho

just the wifey is smart.

Wifey,

Actually no -- Sorry if I was confusing there. No, I won't get $3,000 no matter what. The only reason it was that high is when I had taxes set up as filing jointly but did NOT put in her earnings. Once I put in her earnings, the refund went down to $300. The refund was high before that because the tax software was assuming that she made no money in 2002. Which would be wrong.

So, the only options right now are: File seperately, I get $400 back and she PAYS $900, or file jointly, and together we get $350 back. I will likely just do the latter. Because she really shouldn't be getting ANY back, she offered to pay ME the $50 I am losing by filing jointly and let me keep the entire refund. I don't believe I will do that, definitely not take her $50, unsure of how to handle the rest since, by filing seperately, it's obvious to see that the refund is all coming from my salary, not hers.

So I'm still trying to figure out what the right thing to do as far as splitting up the refund money, what little there is.

Sadinaz --

Thanks for your advice. As for your meeting, is it a positive thing? Why the sudden face to face? Keep me posted, very interested to hear what happens.

As for me, I don't know why but I am feeling a little down about things -- I did exactly what I was supposed to with the phone call, we talked for a LONG time...It was a very safe, friendly conversation. But I still felt empty afterward. I feel like we should be discussing US but I know it gets us nowhere and pushes her away. So I am doing my best not to do that. But I also wonder if it's really doing anything.

ALS

Yep...file jointly! Split the refund equally! Sometimes it sucks to be married...especially on tax day. I've heard that this married tax is going to be gone next year...sure doens't help us this year, tho...does it?

editted to add...I understand why you might feel that dividing the refund equally, isn't really very fair...and your right, it's not...but we are talking about a small amount of money, compared to a lot of resentment not spliting it might cause and a whole lot of graditude if it is split.

<small>[ January 25, 2003, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: just a wifey 2002 ]</small>

missed that nuance, too. the question now is why your wife's withholdings are low enough to owe so much. suggest she change her w4 so that she neither owes nor gets a refund.

ALS-

Considering as you have said before the money means much more to your wife than it does to you- I would definitely split the refund right down the middle. The $200 or so that you are going to be missing out is peanuts compared to any "potential" goodwill that you will earn with your wife. It may not matter in the end, but you are doing everything you could possibly do to save your marriage at this point. Don't let a couple of hundred dollars get in the way. My strategy from the very beginning (as has been yours) is to keep trying until I can finally throw myself to the ground in complete exhaustion knowing full well that I have done absolutely everything possible to save my marriage. You appear to be making small strides and your wife needs the money, be the hero in this situation....

My situation will be much more "dicey" so to speak, typically we are dealing with several thousand dollars either direction depending on how agressive my accountant feels- but my wife has been extremely good to this point regarding our finances so I am hoping it continues....

As for the meeting, I will explain more in depth next week as I don't want to jump onto your post any more than I already have. But I would say it is potentially positive (albeit a baby step), she has said repeatedly and again this week that she doesn't know what she wants- but she definitely doesn't want a divorce or even to discuss the issue. There's more to the story, including a deadline which I know doesn't go over very well on these boards (her deadline, not mine) and I would love your opinion when I post. I am counseling with SH on Tuesday morning so I will probably post after that sometime that day. Please let me know your thoughts at that time.

As for your last call, I can fully understand your frustration. My wife is exactly 10 years older than yours, but has been acting as though she is 18 for the last 6 months. It is disappointing to hear from her future plans that do not include you, but don't get too discouraged. The bottom line, as everyone has said, is that until the "fog" lifts you should just be happy that you have an open line of communication- moreso than what I have had so far.
I am fighting the same fight as you are, we have no children so there isn't a natural "hook" that keeps us together. I have often wondered the same thing, when the A ends does that necessarily mean that she is coming back to me? All we can do is make ourselves into the best people that we can be so that regardless of the outcome we will end up to be better men in the end. I truly think I am doing just that, I think you are as well.

Thanks everyone, for the advice -- I do think that filing the taxes jointly and just splitting with her will be the best, if she'll accept that. It's not much money and I do still care about my W and love her, and I don't like to hear about her financial troubles. At first I thought that having bad finances would bring her back to me, but now I realize that won't make a difference -- If she doesn't want to come home it doesn't matter HOW broke she is, and not only that, she wouldn't be back for the right reasons. I'd want her to come back if she had feelings for me and our M, not because she needed money.

So now I just need to figure out where to find the line between money as far as support goes and how much that's enabling her A. I know by her having more money, that makes it easier for her to do things with OM socially, and the like, and I certainly shudder to think at her taking her tax money I give her and buying OM a nice valentine's day gift with it. My mind tends to go crazy at times but I can't help it!

Whippit, you're right, I did tell her she needs to change that W2, her withholdings really messed things up.

Sad -- That is a good point as well, I do want to feel that I've done ALL I CAN to save this M. I screwed up a lot at first but now, I want to know I am doing all I can. I'm not even sure if being a perfect Plan A guy at first would have worked, I still think she needed to get OM and A out of her system, whether that takes months, years, whatever, I dunno, but I can't stop that. I can't wait forever, either, and honestly think that eventually the day may come in a few months where I go Plan B or even suggest we start the Dv process. She is only 23 and has almost 6 years on me as far as finding a new relationship. I know I'm ONLY 29 but I'm not getting any younger either.

I will watch for your post, let me know if I miss it though.

You have a good attitude in that you need to worry about yourself and tell yourself that you can't end the A, you can't change your W's feelings towards OM -- I tried so hard but I finally realized I can't do any of that. SHE can. So I can only be myself, improve myself, sure, but for ME, not to win her back, but rather just to be a better ALS. And that's what I'm doing. It's still a rollercoaster, I still get lonely and miss her, I still think back to our happier days and wish to have them again. Just little things like cuddling up on the couch that seemed so insignificant now are all that I want back in my life. I know I can find that again with someone else someday, if I have to, but right now, even after all we've been through, I still love my W and hope she might come around to work on M.

I am happy we are talking now, but the patience thing is STILL tough, I am results-oriented but realize that really, I'm just starting Plan A finally, after a lot of LBing and backward steps, so it may take some time if there's a chance for us.

ALS