WW is away working. Tuesday I had to take her car to the garage. Girl I work with picked me up from the garage, took me to work and then (at the last minute because it wasn't supposed to be ready until the next day) took me back to pick the car up.

As a thank-you to her (it was an extra 50 miles total drive for her) and given that she is having a hard time relationship wise too I offered to take her out for a drink / and some food. Her BF was moving out that day after a pretty rocky few months so she was pretty down.

WW has joked over the last few months that CW and me could get together to which I have always honestly replied that CW is just a friend - I have no interest in her, strangely enough because I love my W.

Just after we got the pub WW called, I told her I was having a drink with CW and all was fine. So anyway, after one drink CW asked if I wanted another and that if I did I was welcome to stay in her spare room. I decided that what else was I going to do: drink water all night and then drive home and be on my own, or have a drink and stay.

I decided the latter. So we had some food, a couple more drinks and went back to her place. Her BF (whom I get on with well) was still moving the last of his stuff out, we all sat down and had a cup of tea together, then I went to bed in the spare room on my own to leave them to it. And there I slept on my own.

My phone rings at 4:15am - WW has got up, called my home, found no answer so called my mobile. All she says is "just wanted to see where you were" and hangs up. Given the time and that the walls in the house I'm staying in are paper thin I texted her saying "I'm in CW's spare room asleep".

Cut a long story short WW is convinced I'm lying. As I have tried to tell her I believe in telling the truth. I don't ask her to trust me that I would not do anything but at the very least to trust me to tell her the truth. After all I have never done anything with anyone else.

The biggest loop I see in all of this was speaking to WW last night, I told her I loved her and just got a "Hmm"...

So I spend one night in a (admitedly pretty female) CW's spare room on my own all night, no nothing but that means I obviously don't mean it when I say "I love you".

My WW on the other hand has had a nearly year long A yet still tells me "she loves me" and that she means it.....

Can anyone explain the logic? There must be some somewhere??

Was I wrong / stupid? Thoughts please!

PS - remember WW has still not re-comitted to M; still wants to be on her own, and still in contact with (Ex)OM

PPS - I am not being sarcastic - I really do want to understand her thought process if anyone can help.

<small>[ January 24, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: bowd ]</small>

Hi Bowd,

Just my opinion.... even though your intentions were "honorable"... you put yourself in "dis-honorable" position by spending the night in CW's spare bed room.

If you are really committed in trying to rebuild your M, then I wouldn't "spend the night" with a person of the opposite sex. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF90

"Does this make sense???"

Absolutely NOT!

What you did makes no sense at all.

Stupid.

Very stupid.

I wish I had some advice for you on how to get out of this jam, but I don't. Keep telling the truth, but don't put yourself in situations that have even an APPEARENCE of idiocy. Maybe she'll believe you sooner or later.

Maybe, just maybe, the Gods will look favorably on you and she'll feel a bit jealous.

Good luck,
WAT

<small>[ January 24, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

The short answer is:
You could have been smarter.
Sorry - you asked.
And I am/have been where you are right now, you are not the only one.

You need to write this down for W and send it to her. The story just like you told us. Use it as another way to get to her. Tell her you love her and want her back. Use every chance you get, and this is a good one. Any thing that stirs emotions and gets attention creates an opening.

I wanted to go back and comment on your last post, in fact, I have it ( text of your post) in my word processor but I haven't worked on it like I should have.

As long as you are working on your marriage........... lets see, what is that quote, " avoid the very appearance of evil." Sometimes it will bring consequences that can't be fixed. I feel like yours can be fixed, and that it may even lead to some progress. It would be a great time to have a R discussion. When you send the note, put this at the end.
"Lets talk." Or however you would normally say it.
Then find out where and when. You need to get across that you want HER, and that you want her to WANT YOU. This could help her to fancy you again.

I won't go into all the other now except to say that after reading what she told you, she doesn't understand relationships very well. It sounds like she is speaking of a psychical relationship and doesn't understand about emotional relationships. I agree with WAT, she is still in a R with OM as long as their is contact.

If you feel there is progress being made, keep on, if not, you need to try something different.

Also, there are some things you need to get agreement on. If she wants to try with you, there should be no one else while she tries. If she wants to date around and see what she wants, then I believe you ought to go to plan B. You need to work these things in to conversations over the next little while.

If you ever got the book "Surviving an Affair", you could ask her to read it at this point. If not get it, and read it, and then let her read it. There are some things that others can explain better than we can.

What else has happened since you came home from the trip? Has there been any other progress?

SS

bowd,
I am going to agree with everyone that posted and then I'm going to take it somewhere else. Yea, rather "cattish" of you to have stayed at CW's, but you did. Obviously your wife has mentioned about CW and you because she is jealous of CW for whatever reasons. Now, even if your wife is not ready to recommit, and that she does not "want" you, well she darn well doesn't want anyone else too either. JMHO.

Now this might go against what some think here, but I'm going to throw it out there, I don't think you should make a big issue of this as far as pleading a case that it was so innocent, why? Because when one is innocent they don't have anything to justify. State the facts only, if you have to. Who knows, this might trigger something in your wife to make her commit fully into rebuilding. You know you were wrong in doing what you did or you would not have even posted to ask...not to mention the fact you let us know CW was attractive, so as innocent as it is, you have checked out CW.

Thank you all - I appreciate the honesty. I guess deep down I knew it was stoopid - even though nothing happened... I guess sometimes I perhaps want WW to know a little of something I have felt... I don't know...

I guess I have to remind myself of the quote I'm so fond of using "do I want to be right or do I want to be married"...

Still Seeking:

how do you manage to always be so insightful and to sum up exactly what deep down I know? You cut through everything and bring out the knowledge that I have but sometimes want to bury. Thank you. You are so right too when you say
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it may even lead to some progress. It would be a great time to have a R discussion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I often find that when something like this comes up we often move forward in our mutual understanding.

Neesha:
I also agree with your second paragraph. I will simply say that I have realised it was not a particularly thoughtful thing to do and for that I am sorry but that I have told her the entire truth. I don't want to get into a detailed explanation of the whole evening (as it was really very banal), and will as you say, seem like I am trying to hard to make it that way.

As to what else has happened since we got back: hmm - going to reply more fully on this one after I have had a chance to speak to WW as there are some things bubbling that could really throw me off track but I need to find out for sure first before I worry myself silly about them.

WW has been away working from the Thursday after we got back. She was away on one job until the Sunday and then going straight to another. I ended up in hospital on the Saturday night (nothing serious but thought I might have malaria so got it checked out and they kept me in for observation). WW was really worried and got an early flight back to see me last Sunday for a couple of hours before turning round and heading off again. It was really sweet of her to do this - extra driving and all but when she got to the house all she seemed to want to do was fix her car window (which in the end we couldn't so she took my car and I took hers to the garage the next day).

She also told me just before leaving that OM was coming to stay this Sunday on his way back from his parents to the US... then the day before yesterday she told me he was not arriving on Sunday and that she didn't know when he was coming. Given she is at home until Friday and then we go see my mum for the weekend and then she goes away for another 10 days work I don't know what is going on...

SO that's about it. At least I don't have to try and talk to her tonight when she is knack'ed but can hopefully leave it until she is more rested.

MOre after our talk.

And thank you again - apart from anything else if WW ever sees this board she'll realise from this post that members here are anything but one sided!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ January 25, 2003, 03:17 AM: Message edited by: bowd ]</small>

Hi Bowd

I didn't see this, but clearly you had some good advice - no, you weren't terribly clever, but Neesha is right too about not over egging the pudding.

Bowd, I think the greater issue here is the continuing contact with OM. It has to end for your M to have a future, and that is something you need to work out with her.

Keep us posted.

Take care
Lisa

Bowd,
It may be that Neesha is right, and this is a simple case of jealousy on the part of your W. I am worried that she is looking for a way to justify her A and get out of some of her guilt. If that is the case, it is not a simple case of what the facts are, but the outcome will be based on her feelings. I believe it is considered a fact on the board that a married person should not leave the marriage and try to find happiness with someone else. That has not affected your W's attitude about it, and she has had an A. I believe this is about her emotions, and what she thinks, not about what really happened. That's why I would address it right away - Sunday if you can. Before she can see OM again. I feel you need to plant some kinder emotions in her heart and mind.

I did not know OM was going to be on the scene in person right away, and am worried. If she believes you are not safe, it could throw her right back to him, seeking comfort.

Remember that I don't know any of this, I just worry, having seen so many cases over time.

Again, remember that the facts often have no bearing on the A. Most people wake up and come out of the fog at some point and ask " what was I thinking, OM was no where near as good a person as my H." It is emotion that you need to deal with, her feelings about you. Right now she doesn't trust that you are any better than she is, and she knows she is a mess.

You need to tell us if you have dealt with things on your end. Have you "fixed" the things about your self that you began to work on when you found this site and called the Harleys? Are there still issues that she has with you? I think we need to know that to go on from here.

One of the reasons I never did finish going over your other post and making a reply is that I just couldn't understand how she could spend three weeks with you and not get some kind of a spark back for you. I wondered why she would want to do that trip if she doesn't want a R with you??
Doesn't add up in my mind, and I am wondering if I am missing something.

I believe you have already said that OM has began to LB her some, I believe you should keep doing plan A if you can. I am not sure what the LB's were when you came home, and how much they affect her thoughts. From your lack of comment, I would say that either you are ashamed to bring it up, or you feel it is so minor that it won't affect things, and not worth mentioning. If you can continue to be nice, and OM is not, it will help your chances a great deal.

When you talk to her, be very honest about your feelings, ( you hurt) but please try to be nice about it. I believe she will try to make you out to be just as bad as she is, to ease her guilt. Don't fall into that trap. She may even goad you on purpose, so please be careful.

Another thing I worry about is your emotional state. You wanted some magic to come from the trip, and it appears that it did not come. Can you continue to plan A?

SS

<small>[ January 25, 2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks again all for stopping by.

Hmm - not sure what to write right now. StillSeeking - as always you make some very good points.

I did bring it up on Sunday evening. Caused WW to get annoyed but she then calmed down. Basically she said she knows she had no right to be annoyed by the fact that I spent the night at CW's house even if I had done something. BUt the crux of the matter - and what I find so sad - is that she doesn't believe or even trust me enought to tell her the truth. I have told her the truth and she says that she would have believed me if I had called her back at 4.30am but the fact that I texted her (in her mind) means that I am lying when I say nothing happened and that I slept in the spare room on my own.

I'm afraid that I feel this is simply her trying to make herself feel better and that if I had called her she would still find some other reason why she didn't believe me. It's like she wants to know that she has been right all along that I will end up not loving her and move on to someone else. I refused to be goaded and simply stated that I was very sorry I had hurt/annoyed her, that I realised it wasn't a very sensible thing to do, that I could see how it looked bad but that I had told her the entire truth and that nothing had happened.

I LB'd a bit by bringing up old stuff about her not telling me the truth but that I still trusted her to as it was all I had left really. Not sensible I know but there you go.

SS - thank you for reminding me about me: I need to do a full review of how much I have changed about me since this all began and come back to you on that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wondered why she would want to do that trip if she doesn't want a R with you??
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure either except that she does want an R with me - but I don't know (and I don't think she does) to what level. It's like she wants all parts of a M except SF and exclusivity... hmm what's left? Friendship. I just don't know and there is now another enormous complication - one I need some more time to digest before I post about on here.

OM is coming through the UK on Thursday for one night. I don't know what she is going to tell him - I don't think she is going to rush back into his arms but I don't think she is going to tell him to clear off either.

I know lots of people on here will say "cake eater" and that I should consider going to Plan B and in many ways she is trying to have her cake and eat it. But I don't think Plan B would help either of us right now.

I will post more once I know how to explain but thank you once again to everyone who has taken the time.

bowd

Well - for thos of you that have strength to read more here is the kicker...

Bowd

I am so so sorry to hear this latest turn of events. At the moment, I truly don't know what to say, but I will have a think about it and come back later.

Thinking of you.

Lisa

Thank you Lisa - hope things are positive with you at the moment.

Sorry to read your new news. I suggest you let her know your willingness to accept OC, your willingness to support her emotionally, and then leave her to her own devices. This will set you on the high moral ground and prepare you to continue your life guilt free regardless of what she decides.

Also, do not discount the possibility that she my be lying.

WAT

Bowd,

This may also account for her reaction to you staying out. She knew she had really bad news for you coming.

Whilst I agree with the wisdom of WAT, before you say that, I would truly, deeply examine if this is what you want and whether or not you could sustain your love, your M etc. bringing up another man's child. What about OM, what if he says "No, let's do it together" etc., is that likely? You do know him. Even if he didn't do that, would he want to have a part in his child's life (given that he lives in another country), and would you be able to deal with that if that were the case.

I also think this is complicated by the fact that you were trying for your own children unsuccessfully, and that's why again I ask you to consider deeply whether you could do this or not. If you said no, it certainly wouldn't make you a bad person. There is no reason why you shouldn't support your W in other ways. Is this another reason why she may have gone off sex?

Listen, my mind is racing on this one, and I don't think I can say much else which may be of help. It is an immensely difficult situation for you, and know that we are all thinking of you and care. Take time for you, and think of all the implications.

Lisa

WAT - thank you - you have summed up very simply what I feel I should do.

As to lying - no I know she is not. She had a bunch of tests when we got back from holiday and they were 95% - but they weren't sure if it would last as she was not well. It will be confirmed tomorrow when she goes back to doctors but she says she feels almost 100% that she is.

LIL - I have thought a lot about this from the time we first started having problems. Of course in an ideal world I would always have wanted chldren that were biologically both ours. However I would love and bring up a child in the same way whether it was ours, hers or neither (ie. adopted) biologically. The questions to my mind are
1. whether my W can believe this
2. (and firstly really) whether she wants an us regardless of a baby.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What about OM, what if he says "No, let's do it together" etc., is that likely? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have thought about this too. RIght now he is not in a situation to be involved in any kind of support. He doesn't want to leave the US permanently until he has residency (another 6 months or so) but he had already been exploring working in UK, Europe etc.

If W goes ahead and tells OM he will want to be involved in some way with his child (understandably) and will almost defintely aim for moving to the UK.

However (again more importantly IMHO) I don't know whether W would want him. In the same way that she won't come back to me purely because of the baby I don't think she will go back to him purely because of it either.

How would OM being around make me feel? It would be a lot easier if he wasn't - but again not much matters if W doesn't want to try on our M in the first place.

Trouble is it sort of forces her to take some decision. If she does keep the baby (and I really hope for her sake that she does) then pretty soon we are going to have to work out what to tell people.

And if baby ends up getting OM's Turkish blood colouring (he's half Turkish, half Swiss) then it could be even more difficult - lucky at least I'm reasonably swarthy I suppose <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I really don't know is the answer. There are so many things I could say, could feel, but they are all completely pointless - the situation is what it is and any of the above things I coud say would only serve to make matters worse so what's the point? But I feel pretty numb - have hardly cried at all. It's almost like my body has gone into survival mode where thinking coldly and logically about the options is the only way to move forwards.

Thanks again all.

Reading this may be hazarderous to you M. But I have to tell you that I will pray for you I do not believe in Divorce, but I do not think that I could be in your situation. for one your W is not even sure she wants to work oo M, and now sheis having a C from OM. I have gone through my W having an A, but would not tolerate that she see OM ever again. And I hope to GOD that I never see OM ever, because I;'m afraid what I will do to him. (and it has been 4 years). I think that an A hurts so much and then to deal with OC, you are getting in way over your head. RUN away, is my opinion. She does want her cake and eat it too, I see no remorse in anything that she has ever said that she put you through this. I say if you take her back and OC that she will not be true and that she will always look for something better. I will pray that you make the right decission and drop her like a bad habbit. Her talking about you staying at your friends house overnight. She has no right and you are being a doormat for her. I wish I would of got to you earlier, to tell you this, but please for the love of yourself get away. You will learn to love another person please listen.

Father of 4

My suggestions are few this time.

1. Deciede what you are able and willing to do. Be sure.

2. Set your boundries. It doesn't matter what promises she makes to OM. If she is going to make things work with you, you have to come first. So, you need to write down what you are willing to do. And you need to write down what you are not willing to do. If you need no contact to go on trying, then write it down. The act of writhing it down ( or typing) will firm up things in your mind and help you know what you want. I don't believe you should make sacrifices right now with out her making some also. If you do, I believe you will regret it down the road.

3. Wait.
She may need time to work through her feelings. When she is ready, she will talk to you. If there is any thing you need up front ( like NC) then tell her now. Otherwise plan A. I don't think it would hurt anything to point out to her that you are calm, and that you love her and that you want her. I don't think it would hurt to point out that you must love her or you would be gone by now. These simple things may be good for her to think about.

bowd, you have been through a lot. I take my hat off to you. I hope you can continue, and I think it just may work.

SS

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Bowd,

I have read your posts from the beginning, but I have never felt I had any advice to offer. I would like to follow up on what SS said. Don't make any sacrifices with regard to what you want. By this I mean read up and use the POJA with your W when dealing with this issue.

Whatever you do, even any sacrifices you make should be agreed to with her. She will then know what is going on in your head. It is a very difficult thing with this child involved. Neither are certain if the other person is being fully considered or if the other person is just "doing the right thing."

That is why when you look at SS's points, please use the POJA when addressing them. Write your lists, rewrite them, and then you must sit down and use the POJA to reach an agreement.

Frankly, if she is still uncertain about removing OM from her life, I would suggest that it may be time for a plan B letter and simply go "dark". She has committed a grievous sin and she has put a child at greater risk than a child should be. She needs to sort out what she wants and who she wants in her life.

It seems from your descriptions of her work, travels, and this affair, that she just needs you for support when she is tired. Otherwise, it is "move over I have things to do." Not a good way to be a W or a mother.

Which brings me to an interesting point. Does she really want to be a mother to children or are they going to sort of be like pets, where you take them to the kennel whenever you decide to leave town and travel? Her lifestyle is not compatible with children and I wonder if she will give that up.

Frankly, whether she chooses OM or you, she is about to have to change her life. I wonder if she has considered that. Plus, she can bet that OM will continue his travels, and finding new exciting women to bed. He is young, single, will have a lot of opportunities.

Must go, but do consider SS's recommendations and read up on the POJA. It may be the basis of you and W deciding if this can really go or not.

God Bless,

JL

Bowd

I hear what you are saying about whatever your W may choose - be it a relationship with you or OM, or neither, but you have choices too. And I think this is what you should think about, as JL said, would it even be time to think about Plan B. I'm sure you don't want her to feel abandoned when it is a really difficult time, but only she put herself in this place, and whatever she chooses, you have little control over.

I understand what you are saying about whether a child is biologically yours or not - I have an exceptionally close relationship with both my SDs, and sometimes the youngest is so like me in many ways I forget we're not related by blood. Partly that is because she has grown knowing me as "my third parent" - her words. However, it IS different that she is pregnant by OM.

I am so sorry for your pain and upset - I truly can't imagine how you feel right now, or how you are coping.

We're all here thinking of you Bowd.

Take care.
Lisa

Wow!

Thank you all for your considered advice - how to respond to so much heartfelt advice??

Fatherof4 - it's always good to think about the options are and to consider how I feel about following your advice (the complete opposite of my natural reactions) is enlightning. Steve Harley in my counselling session (and StillSeeking this answers in part your question about how I have progressed) asked me to think a lot about how and why I might go to Plan B. This kind of shocked me as he had recommended I stay in Plan A for as long as possible. I then realised (after talking on here) that what he wanted me to do was place a value judgement on the importance of my Plan A by carefully considering a Plan B - which I did.

I realised - and considering your advice has helped me in the same way - that I married my W for life. For better or worse. I love my W completely even though I do not love many of the things she has done over the last year.

I choose to continue wanting to work on our M because to run away would cause me much greater unhappiness in the long term. However I can not choose for my W, and of course, if she does not choose to try again I may change my mind. I have a timetable but of course life happens and I believe in remaining flexible (like a reed as someone on here's sig line says). So thank you for your post (and indeed the others who have suggested looking at Plan B) - considering your thoughts makes me examine why I am currently choosing the path I am and revalidates my choices for me.

Still Seeking: again a goldmine of thoughts. W and I talked through some of the options yesterday afternoon but were both careful not to rush things - as you say time and facing the decisions in as rational and ordered manner is important. After all she has to decide firstly (and within the next 2 weeks) whether or not to go ahead with the pregnancy.

I think that writing them down will help me hugely. W & I are both painfully aware that right now we need to have full agreement on what we both can and can't cope with.

Just Learning:
You bring up a point that I need some advice on -
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if she is still uncertain about removing OM from her life </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Last night W said she had realised that she did not want to spend the rest of her life with OM - which was why she broke it off with him. I had always said to her that if she wanted to work on our M she would need to have NC with OM as otherwise she would not be able to focus on M.

But of course the OC throws a spanner in this theory and neither of us are sure how to deal with it. If W decides to go ahead with having OC (regardless of what she decides about our M) what does she tell OM? As I see it (and discussed with her last night) she has 3 options:

1. Tell OM that she wants NC ever and say nothing about OC
2. Tell OM that she is pregnant and that it is mine
3. Tell OM that she is pregnant, that it is his, but that she does not want him to be involved in the upbringing.

OK - so there are lots of variations on those 3, but my question is:

If she decides to work on our M, but does not want to lie to OM about his child, how do we reconcile his (likely) desire to have some involvement in his child's life without this affecting our chances of working on our M?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Frankly, whether she chooses OM or you, she is about to have to change her life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">W realises this very much and knows that it will be hard - and that it would be easy to perhaps slip back into our M to ease the path of bringing up a child. Not what either of us want.

That said my personal belief is that if she commits to our M it will be possible for her still to work in the same line of business - indeed it will be neccesary for her as it is one of her great talents and a growing business that can provide security for the OC. However she will have to work smart and be creative about how she addresses her business. She is certainly not someone who considers children a commodity - and would not want to be away from a child all the time or to come and go with a child.

She also does not want her child to be fatherless - which of course adds to the decision making as she needs to consider whether to go ahead or not in conjunction with whether to try on our M - or not.

And finally Lisa:

You are right that it is different that child is OM's biologically. W went to talk through the options with our doctor today - a wonderful lady. Doctors comment was (and W explained the whole situation) that whilst she has seen other women in this situation regret having a termination she has never seen one who regretted going ahead with the pregnancy. She also said that given the problems we had had trying to have a baby together that IVF was going to be the likely next step for us - and that was a treadmill that neither of us wanted to get on to - this wasn't so far removed from a donor situation...

she was of course saying this tongue in cheek and W did point out that it was pretty different as it was not something I had had any say or choice in! But biologically (not emotionally) the doctor is correct.

I feel much stronger today:
I know it will not be easy whatever path we individually and jointly chose but I honestly believe that we will (both) hurt more if she has a termination. Whatever we do and whatever happens in our M and life we will survive. Things are what they are and it is up to us to consider how we can or want to deal with them not degenerate into accusations and recriminations. It is not a situation I would have chosen (obviously) and I now have to chose based upon a new set of circumstances.

I will go through and write down my thoughts and conditions but my resolve is still what it has always been - I want to work on our M. Not at any cost and not as a doormat. But quite simply I love my W - and it would take far more space and time than I have already taken up with this post - to even begin to explain why. I always will love my W - whatever happens.

Thank you all again for your time and care.

bowd