bowd,
It would take care of so many problems, and so much pain if she would just write a NC letter and say nothing to OM.

Endless custody and visitation questions would never come up, never have to be dealt with.

I hope this works for you. I hope it works.
If it depended on your attitude, it would work, and you know, it just may come down to that.

SS

Still Seeking - and indeed anyone else:

a quick question:

does you know the legal requirements surrounding a birth certificate? Is it illegal to put your name down as a father if you know you are not?

Indeed is it ethical?

Not taken any decisions - just trying to think through all the options.

Obviously the fact that we are in the UK and OM is not complicates such issues further...

TIA

Bowd,

You need to see a lawyer to answer the questions about paternity and a husband's rights where you live. It is crucial to do this right now. It may help you and your W select the which option to take.

God Bless,

JL

I think you are on the wrong track with your thinking here. Back up a little bit.

Who is listed as the father if you use IVF?
I believe you would be. Sure there would be lots of forms to sign, but in the end, you would be the father and no one would ever dispute that.

I am not sure of the legalities but I have seen many posts here where the husband was listed as the father even though the child was concieved in an A. If It was me, I don't think I would go find out. I believe you just may understand my reasoning.

I just hope your W wants what you want. You have some time to get things where they should be, but if that's what you both want, I think you can make it happen.

One of the cases I remember is someone who still posts on the "child" board. I believe her user name is tigger4jdt, and you could ask her about their story. I know she said once that her H is listed as father and OM doesn't know.

SS

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Still Seeking:

yes I do understand your thought process entirely... I have thought through the same...

the trouble I have is in reconciling that with my overriding belief that not telling the truth hurts everyone more in the long run.

After all a lie is a lie is a lie. If (and there are a lot of "ifs" in here) my W and I end up reconciling, having the OC and I am it's father - even although not biologically speaking - I am not sure I could reconcile in the long term lying on the birth certificate, lying to the OM, lying to the OC etc with my strong belief that lying is wrong. However easier it may seem right now I worry that it would just be storing up problems for down the track. After all we all of us here know how much hurt, anger and mistrust lying can bring.

I don't mean that I would shout to the world - but the trouble is, of course, that the OM might choose to do that - and cause all sorts of problems. I don't know whether it makes it easier that he lives outside of the UK - ie. he would have less rights - or harder.

So lots of questions but I fear that - for me - Just Learning's answer might be the right one even if it means (most likely) that it will be harder then to revert to the idea of putting my name on the birth certificate.

Thank you again. I'm just searching for the right course of action for me.

Well - at least I now know the legal status in the UK and I post this here to help anyone else who may benefit from this advice:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Marriage

Every child born to a married woman is presumed to be her husband&#8217;s child unless there is proof to the contrary. The husband has the right to enter his name on the child&#8217;s birth certificate, whether or not he is actually the father. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So legally no problem - just the ethical one I mentioned above!

Double post.

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Understand, I'm not telling you what to do.

Forgive the bluntness but consider -

If the sperm donor is the father, then why isn't he the father in the case of IVF?

Is it because he signs away his rights?

In your case, OM was with your W. Why should he have any rights? Do you have to give them to him if you don't want to?

I know in some states in the US that the name on the BC is the father, no matter how the baby came to be. The person listed on the Certificate has all the rights.
In other states the sperm donor has more rights than the husband and can later sue for visitation rights no matter who is listed on the cert. In other cases I have read about, the H has to pay child support in the event of D, even though he can prove he is not the bio father." So, the truth as defined by law is different things, depending on which state you live in.

I also believe in telling the truth, it has gotten me in trouble many times when I could have covered up and gotten away with it. In this case, what good will it do to tell OM? That is, if you want the child to have a normal life how could OM knowing help in any way? Who are we doing all this for? I was thinking of the child more than you or your W.

We know the word FATHER does not mean Bio father in every case, in the case of IVF, father means the person that is going to act like a father and raise the child. Are those birth certificates lies? Every time the child says " daddy, will you read me a story?" is the child living a lie?

Absolutly not!
My belief is that the man that takes the responsibility for the child and raises the child is the father.

I suppose that if you boil down what I am trying to say into a very short statement it would be this: In the case of IVF, the father is not the Bio father but HE IS IF THE GOVERNMENT SAYS HE IS. In your case, my personal belief is that you and your W should have as much or more say than anyone else on who the "father" is.
If both you and she can agree on it, then I believe you are the father.

Now, I wanted you to understand my thoughts, but you do what you feel is right. I also want to go on record as saying that JL is smarter than I am, and you can tell. Look how short his post is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

Still Seeking - bluntness never a problem <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And I appreciate every moment of your time - believe me I do. Your advice is absolutely correct:

this is about what would be best for the child: interestingly Harley counsels telling the child - although this pre-supposes that the OM knows.

From my research this evening OM has few if any rights in the UK - even less as his dual citizenship is of two countries neither of which are even in the EU. Given what I have found and stated above about the birth certificate he would never be able to prove anything - DNA tests not agreed to by both parents not being recognised in this country.

SO if he has no rights, no current way of supporting the OC and no legal right to remain in this country would it help the OC to know her biological father?

Can't see it would - but I guess I do come back to what Harley says: POJA all the way.

Thank you all for your help and advice - the candider the better SS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Edited beacuse I meant to say:
In the UK if I am listed as the father I am responsible for supporting that child - regardless of the situation. So it is not a decision I take lightly. However if my W wants to try and really work on our M then it is a responsibility I am willing to shoulder as I would consider myself the childs father.

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: bowd ]</small>

I also agree that the child ought to know. There are other reasons other than just POJA. Medical history and so on.

However, I know of someone that wasn't told until after they were married themselves. They are happy and agree with the timing. I have not studied this, don't know if there are comments from "experts" on what is best.

bowd, you are fun to talk to, you know how to think. I hope this works for you.

SS

Hi Bowd

Just wanted to touch base and see how you were doing. It seems that you have found out all the information you need and now the decision processes begin.

I think you are being incredibly strong and brave - hey look at my H, can't imagine for one moment what he would have put me through if I had fallen pregnant - he certainly would have been out the door quicker than you can say..... well whatever.

Try and stay true to yourself and whatever you really want to do. You still have issues within your R about your W's fancying/chemistry, which is no light thing to deal with - believe me I know. Have you booked with Relate yet? I see you have been having councilling with Steve H which is good. Whilst this is a huge added complication, don't lose sight of the other things that need working on too.

Take care Bowd, wishing you well, isn't it cold today!!

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

thanks for dropping by. And thank you for reminding me about all the other matters that need fixing too.. it is all too easy for this situation to blow the others out of one's mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And neither of us want to get back together solely because of OC. Wife has softened on her approach to counselling - but I haven't wanted to push it. She is working in the smoke for 10 days so I'm going to write her a letter outlining my thoughts on the options and what I would like to see happen. I'm going to include counselling in it as I think the pressures of all these decisions in one go will need some outside impartial advice and help.

I'll keep you updated.

Thanks all
bowd

PS - bl00dy freezing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: bowd ]</small>