MB Friends:

I can't believe this! You Sr. Members probably won't be shocked. What a Rollercoaster Ride!

After such an AWFUL morning yesterday, I saw my WS at the gym. He spontaneously greeted me almost like his old self- he smiled as he said hi- he definitely was my H again, with his guard down. I, of course had made a decision to be GENTLE AND ADMIRING with him. I asked him, "How was your day?" and looked at him in the eyes lovingly. Its not hard for me. I love and care for him immensely.

He had a meeting at his office. I checked. He was there for the meeting. He called me before leaving saying he was going to be late.

When he came home, I had continued to work on the DOMESTIC SUPPORT which he loves. I had bought his favorite drink, had his dinner fixed, son out of the main living area, no clutter, etc. As I fixed his dinner, he spontaneously told me all about his meeting. Just like the old days!!

Then, I proceeded with my seductive actions, doing the special things he likes as a prelude to SF. Well, it did work!! He initiated contact, was loving and very passionate!! I gave needed ADMIRATION both during and afterwards.

This morning I continued with a strong PLAN A. Tucked him into bed again after I got out. Yes, I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but that is something I used to do in the past. He likes for me to baby him, being GENTLE which was his request yesterday. I fixed him coffee. Son washed up in the back as he had asked yesterday. I could tell he liked this. I guess there is jealousy with our son. He was receptive to my hug and kiss goodbye. I said Have a nice day and that was it.

I know that he can be a different person tonight after getting with her. However, I think MTHRRHBARD was onto something when she said: THE BETTER YOUR PLAN A.... THE ANGRIER YOUR HUSBAND WILL BECOME IN ORDER TO JUSTIFY HIS BEHAVIOR TO HIMSELF.

Our son seems OK. He understands at his own level what is going on with me and his Dad. Positively, our son is seeing us more as a team which is also an important part of MY PLAN according to Steve H.

I posted this to encourage others to believe in the use of MB principles and the use of PLAN A. I know I become desperate and scared at times. I encourage others to not give up.

<small>[ February 07, 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

He will also cling to the old reasons and excuses.

He will disbelieve that you are truly changing. He won't "trust" you or that the changes will be lasting.

He will come up with trivial and crazy-sounding reasons on why it won't work out between the two of you.

Don't let any of it get to you. Keep on Plan A'ing.

He's going to keep trying to make you LB. Just like yesterday when he was pushing your buttons with your son.

Just try to maintain your logic and common sense. Don't let your son get in the middle of things -- kids have finely tuned radar for this stuff.

Protect your son Mimi!

Set a time limit on Plan A. You must trust in the power of Plan B. Don't fear it. If it comes to that point, expose this affair to everyone!

Good luck!

ooopsy...doubled

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Lexxxy ]</small>

Be careful, plan A is about you becoming a better you. Remember that. It is not a plan to win your WS back. Sure he loves what you're doing but be careful this kissing his butt behavior can lead to cakeman syndrome. A strong loving attractive woman betters herself and sets appropriate boundaries, she doesn't make herself into a doormat while her WS continues in an affair.

Loosing focus about what plan a is really all about will lead to a long ride on the rollercoaster. That becomes nauseating after a while. Sure he responds to your loving efforts, what man in their right mind wouldn't lap it up? He's got 2 women now, fawning all over him. Doesn't get much better than that.What really matters is if he's responding by dumping her and commiting to you,otherwise he's just loving being a cakeman and he has no incentive to change what he's doing. There's a fine line between a good Plan A and being a doormat. Don't lose focus. Plan doesn't mean you meet all of his needs while he goes about his merry way. It means you become a better you.

I guess I have not made myself clear to you guys. I feel that I am working towards a better me! I was not keeping my house clean and I was not cooking dinner for my family. I am doing these things for myself. A major problem identified in my sessions with Steve H. is how I have not demanded respect from my children which makes them entitled and selfish and also I have given them priority over my marriage and shut my husband out. Steve H. wants me to work on standing up to my children which will be good for them whether I am with my WH or not. My RULES from Steve are to NOT TOLERATE ANY DISRESPECT and to INCLUDE MY WS IN ALL DECISIONS. He also wanted me to make him start taking responsibility as I did in my discussion with him yesterday.

I am getting down by your responses while I was beginning to feel uplifted today. Why is that? I feel like you are being discouraging.

I feel that my WS' positive response had something to do with me being more firm with him yesterday about taking responsibility for his actions in the affair. The test will be this weekend. He has been accountable this week.

I'm surprised that you guys think that I am "kissing his butt". What makes you say that? How am I diverging from Plan A after reading this post?

Do you think he decided to play a game with me last night? He sincerely did seem more like himself than he has been in months.

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Do you think it would be a good idea to ask my WS if he would like to go with me on a hike at a state park this weekend? Its something that I want to do but I don't want to go by myself. I can test whether he's committed weekend time to the OW.

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I tend to be a bit blunt. Didn't mean to get you down, just want to make sure you stay focused. You yourself talk about what a rollercoaster this situation is, that's where the warning comes in. We all hope his responses mean he is being drawn towards you Mimi. It's just that in over 3 years here on this board we've seen situations exactly like yours where the BS bends over backwards to do anything and everything that pleases the WS, all the while the WS goes about having their cake and eating it too. They have the best of both worlds. That's not a good thing. You will be up and then down, up and then down.

Steve's recommendations are right on. You should Plan A for awhile longer but you must set a limit ( draw a boundary) as too how long you will continue to do all of this if your H continues with OW. By having no time limit, especially when it obvious that he notices your changes and is enjoying them, you run the real risk that he'll keep up the status quo.

Honestly, I hope that doesn't happen. I hope he's opening his eyes to all he has to lose. It's just that years of seeing this over and over again on this board, when a WS has been in a long term A, giving it up doesn't happen so easily. That's the reason behind the warning.

Sure keep up your house, cook dinner, set firm limits with the kids and include and encourage H in parenting.

I'd go for it and ask him to go on that walk. If he agrees I'd not mention one word about the relationship, be the woman you were when he fell in love with you in the first place. Have fun and enjoy the moment. But remember there's only so long you can do this without H having to do his part as well. All the best to you!

I HEARTILY, HUGELY encourage you to ask him to go for that walk. And in fact, even if he doesn't go, you go, even if you must go alone.

I am telling you girl, this kind of stuff worked for me BIG TIME.

Try to lead into it somehow. For example, you could talk about how it's felt so great working out lately, but you want to feel a bit more connected with nature. If there's a past nature related memory you can bring up, do so. "Remember when we.... did that hike? camped near the lake?" whatever. You continue, I'm thinking it would be a great idea to go for a hike this weekend- "I love the trees in the snow" OR I love the fresh air OR I want to do some nature photography (if appropriate) OR I want to do such and such a hike (5 mile loop) in other words, set goals- what you want to achieve.
then- I'd love it if you'd come with me, H- would Saturday work for you?
If he says no, you ask about Sunday.
If he says no- you never wanted me to come before, why now? you say, I think it would be a fun thing to do, and I'm setting a goal for myself to connect with nature more. (Don't let him burst your bubble)
If he says- I'm busy (with real or phony excuse) you say, Oh that's too bad honey maybe next time. You don't need me around this weekend? You don't mind if I go on my own?

Then go on your own. Or even better see if some friends will go with you. But do it.

When my H was in the A, I found a Sierra Club hike (they may have a local chapter). (They list their hikes on a website- they are open to non members) I told my H I was going on the hike- did he want to go with me? And he did. We both enjoyed it. In fact, my H was not too happy about me going out and meeting new people- possibly men. See if there are any other hiking groups around that you could join. But if all else fails, do it on your own.

There's great insight in Espoir's post! It's confident, strong behavior like that that makes them think and makes them wonder.

I disagree a bit with motherhubbard re: the purpose of Plan A (although I do completely respect her excellent advice)

Harley says:
<strong>Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement, but they also make the betrayed spouse much less attractive to the wayward spouse. Instead of encouraging total separation from the lover, the anger, disrespect and demands of the betrayed spouse make the lover appear to be the only one who truly cares about the wayward spouse. They literally throw the wayward spouse into the arms of the lover.

On the other hand, if the betrayed spouse approaches the wayward spouse with respect and thoughtfulness, the cruelty and self-indulgence of the affair is much easier for the wayward spouse to understand. And once the wayward spouse's mistake is acknowledged, it's much easier for him or her to take the first step toward recovery by agreeing to never see or talk to the lover again. </strong>

Plan A is about getting the WS to give up the affair. (NEGOTIATING with them to give it up) But, an important side effect of Plan A is that the BS is focusing on being the best person they can be. This is a good thing in general.

Harley goes on to say that many times Plan A is not enough to convince the spouse to give up the (A)ddiction, hence Plan B.

Yes, Plan A can lead to cakeeating. Plan B is what deals with that.

The problem on this board is that many members go on in Plan A indefinitely, without going to Plan B. I'm beginning to think that some form of Plan B is very useful and almost mandated. At times I regret not using it on my own H.

Mimi, I hate to say it but I have a feeling that you may well have to go to Plan B WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT. (Steve will tell you when).

But don't think about that now, just focus on your Plan A. Plan A sets the stage for B. B is useless without A.

But make no mistake- all these Plans are about saving M's and getting into recovery.

However, if the plans fail, the BS is usually a stronger person with better relationship skills. The BS also knows they tried their best to save the M, and can go on without regrets.

Mimi,
It sounds like things are going very good!

And I have to agree with espoir about the purpose of Plan A. The purpose is to break up the spouses affair by becoming as attractive as possible. A BY-PRODUCT is certainly self improvement when one stops love busting and doing all manner of annoying things.

Please go give your son a big hug for me, ok?

If you read further in Dr. Harley's article on Plan A and B, he states:

"Since one of these causes is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended."

This is where lots get in to trouble with Plan A. His recommendation is to meet ENs after the affair has ended. There must be natural consequences for hurtful, destructive behavior or there is no motivation to change. A natural consequence of keeping up an ongoing affair is that the BS doesn't continue to meet every need the WS has. Yes, you can be respectful and considerate and not lovebust but you set firm boundaries as well. Dr. Harley also states:

"My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely."

So I would say that based on Dr.Harley's statements, if the WS will not negotiate to end the affair, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't end it upon discovery, the BS would do well to set firm boundaries to prevent further suffering.

mthrrhbrd, I am confused. Are you saying that he is saying in the paragraph above NOT to try and meet the WS's EN's until - and only AFTER - the affair is ended? Because I don't see how you concluded that and wonder if I am missing your point. Saying that the "betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended." does not EXCLUDE meeting their needs BEFORE. I don't believe that is the point he is making here and also contradicts what how he has counseled Mimi and others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I would say that based on Dr.Harley's statements, if the WS will not negotiate to end the affair, doesn't want to talk about it, doesn't end it upon discovery, the BS would do well to set firm boundaries to prevent further suffering.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What he has, in fact, advised Mimi to do is to continue to do Plan A in order to end the affair. He hasn't told her to set firm boundaries. Am I missing your point?

<small>[ January 30, 2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I appreciate the feedback and comments about Plan A. I have to admit that I am very confused now.

WAT and Mel have been telling me that my Plan A seems to be working. WAT has said time is on my side. Many of you have said that contact will likely continue during Plan A; "the only one who can stop the A is the WS. The book SAA suggest a 6 month Plan A. Now I am getting the feeling that my thinking about PLAN A is incorrect.

You guys have indicated a strong belief in the necessity of Plan B. Espoir, you said you think I may need to do Plan B. I know that there is value in Plan B and it has worked for many of you. However, the idea of that is too scary for me to think about at this time. Maybe that's why Steve H. won't even let me consider it and I have asked him about it. I have been with my WS since I was 18 years old. That's 30 years. I have grown up with him and cannot manage the idea of being separated from him even if it might save my marriage. I know that sounds crazy but that's how I feel. I guess he knows that and therefore can more easily do the cakewalk with me. So a major part of my PLAN A is to develop the sense that I can LIVE without my H. I cannot imagine life without him. I have been with him longer than I have lived. Our marriage has only been bad for the past 4 to 5 years. He acknowledges this himself. A large part of this is his midlife crisis. So there... the idea of Plan B now makes me want to give up on the whole thing. I'm feeling like if he needs to leave I will need to immediately need to learn how to LIVE without him. Therefore, I would want to proceed with a divorce. I have told him this and he believes it. I think it is a major reason why he has not chosen to separate and wants me to go along with it. He wants me to give my blessing for him to just go out and play. He does not want a divorce. He has a plan of coming back to me when he is finished.

Steve H. has had one session with my WS. Based on their conversation, he sees my WS as the type of a guy who likes to do things his way, on his own. He thinks my WS is trying to break it off and has known that he needs to break it off but is being unsuccessful. However, Steve did say that he has known men with my WS' personality to be successful. He was being honest with me wasn't he? My goal is supposed to be for me to negotiate with him for us to work on a plan together for him to break it off. We need to work as a team on that as well as on the parenting of our children.

I guess what I am saying is that with MB it is important to think about individual differences in situations and not to adhere steadfast to the principles. Steve H. doesn't even call it PLAN A . He says I'm working on MY PLAN . Tell me what you guys think about this.

I was thinking about writing a note to my WS inviting him to go hiking with me enclosing a pamplet about the park. We did go on a memorable hike several years ago which I am trying to recapture. As indicated above about dependence, I actually am somewhat afraid to go alone and don't want to go alone. Would asking him directly be better? I do have this problem with CONFLICT AVOIDANCE and I hate it when he rejects me.

I am enjoying this discussion. I have a question too. When you say "negotiate an end to the affair" what does that mean? Do you sit down with your WS and ask them what it would take for them to end there A? I'm trying to figure out how to talk to my W about this or if I even should because I've been advised by several on this board to avoid relationship talk altogether in plan A.

Steve simply says that the goal is for us to come up with a PLAN that we can agree on regarding how the affair can be ended so that we can begin to work on rebuilding our marriage. That's where the whole idea of individual differences comes in that I was referring to. The focus is not on how the affair will be ended. The important point is that we work on it together as a team because lack of teamwork has been a major problem in our marriage.

This is not a relationship talk about what led to the affair. This is a fact talk on what will be done. I guess it would be something like: I will write her a No Contact letter that you approve of and we will mail it on Saturday.

Mimi,

I think that is great how he describes it as YOUR PLAN, and that is absolutely what it has to be because everyone is different. Even so, the way he is counseling you is how I understand Plan A.

Mimi, I know the idea of Plan B horrifies you, but, personally, I think your marriage will be saved. While I can't predict the future anymore than anyone else, I suspect that it might take Plan B to dislodge this crazy, destructive plan of his to go "play" while you sit by the fire waiting for him. I hope it doesn't take Plan B, but wouldn't it be worth it if it saved your marriage?

Aye,Aye, Aye. I lost my response <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Anyway........in a nutshell. I'm not saying EN should not be met in Plan A. Of course they should. I just urge caution. It's very easy for WS to become cakepeople. In my experience here, for whatever that's worth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , it's not often that you see Plan A alone do the job. Now I really, really hope that it does in Mimi's case and in every newcomers case for that matter, but it's never a bad idea to prepare yourself in case it doesn't. BS must be careful not to go on too long in Plan A out of fear. MBers is a two part Plan. Six months is an awful long time to have an affair flying in your face when you're only crime is that you were a spouse who let your prioritis get out of whack. If you've been the quivalent of Attila the Hun then maybe but Mimi sounds like she's done a decent job and just needs to get back on track, which she doing a wonderful job at!

mimi:

I think you have all your waterfowl coaxially aligned. It's been a short time since your D-day, and so if SH were to recommend plan B would not likely happen anytime soon. I don't disagree with the gist of either mthr's or espoir's stands on plan A, and I really like your description of YOUR plan as YOURS, with coaching from SH.

Your H's A was long-term? Let me give you an example of my thinking after 7 months of plan A, when I called SH and had a session with him. When I gave him a run-down of my story, he asked me "So, you just found out this year?" Point being, that my W's A was on and off over an 11-year span of time (now about 12), and so it would take my W longer than most to give up the "friendship" that she's constructed from the ruins of her A to keep contact going.

I also have a hard time understanding just how I would "negotiate an end to the A", because even now I can get my W pretty agitated by even mentioning my need for NC. So, I back off. But the need and the requirement doesn't go away, and my W knows it. But the upshot of all this is that there's still no way to open a "negotiate the end of the A" convo without getting hung up on the difference of opinion that it's still an A. So, I work on myself. Plan A if you like. Building my self-confidence so that I can live alone if I have to. Pretty much as you describe. As to negotiating an end to the A, that's up to her. I'll wait a while longer for HER to bring it up to ME.

Persevere,
-Qfwfq

Mimi,

I'm sorry I didn't mean to scare you. It's too soon for you to really think or worry about Plan B. And your H is making positive movements at times. He may need a little more time to figure it all out.

Interesting question raised about meeting needs. I don't know the answer but I do believe this. I think that in affairs spouses have become disconnected- and the WS has connected with someone else. Whether or not, you meet needs per se, often it is necessary to RECONNECT with the WS. If you don't do this, why should the WS stay home? I do believe Plan A helps the spouses reconnect, I think that is one thing Mimi is working on now.

Reconnection can mean sexually- or emotionally or recreationally or more. Those connections often existed in the beginning of the marriage and eroded under the stresses of daily life. I think one thing Mimi is doing right now is working on reconnecting with her WS as parents. No doubt the two of them joyously shared the birth of their sons with pride and celebration. It will take hard work to reestablish that connection after the stresses of recent years- but Mimi is working on it.

But Mimi, I don't think you have to think in terms of "I have to divorce so I can work on living alone". There's ground in between. You can learn to be a little more independent and it would probably be a good thing for you. Your H shouldn't be thinking that he's going to go out and meet up with OW and you will be sitting at home knitting until he gets back. That will encourage the cake eating attitude.

Believe me, my H thought he would go out and spend the summer making up his mind who he wanted. I tried to make it clear (subtly) that I wouldn't be sitting around waiting for him. It made him very nervous. Believe me Mimi I was faking it completely. In fact I completely fell apart when the A was over. I couldn't/can't imagine life without my H. But deep down I know I would survive.

I'll never forget one night (while the A was still going on) I actually went out to a nightclub with a friend who was married to a friend of my H's. I do love to dance, but I'm not much of a nightclubber (tend to get tired by 12 midnight). My H got really really nervous that I would hook up with someone- he actually instructed me not to fool around and cheat on him before I left. It was hilarious- at age 43 I was probably the oldest female in the place. (although hey some guys thought I was cute- in the dark they couldn't see the wrinkles).

Anyway Mimi I'm not recommending nightclubbing but try to take up some activities if you can. Even if it's only to tell your WH that while he's out on Sat you'll be lifting weights at the gym.