I will inform about the Steve H. session later when I have more time.

Right now I have a question about the condo scenario.

I've checked with lenders, read the laws in my state and spoke BRIEFLY with my WS about the condo. The facts are: If there is a legal separation, my WS can purchase the condo on his own and it will be his. Without a legal separation, I will have to be on the title and would also be liable.

Why isn't my WS pushing for a legal separation so that he can outright buy the condo on his own? I asked him why he wants me to purchase the condo with him. He says he's "trying to do the right thing"; we know that is not true. If he were trying to do the right thing, he would come on home. Is it because he wants me to share the liability for the condo? Is it because he doesn't want to be legally binding under a separation agreement and all the other matters it entails? Is it because once he buys it I would know about his other stash of money that he would have to use for the downpayment? Half of that money is mine now for sure. He probably can't buy the condo without that money. It must be in the tens of thousands.

What do you guys think?

Who knows what he thinks? All we can be sure of is that whatever thinking is taking place is likely not rational.

A legal separation may be very much in your best interests. As Mel implied, cut him loose and let him fend for himself. "You want a condo? Go right ahead - but without me."

A point of detail - is he intending to go thru a mortgage company or is this an seller financed deal? Maybe loulou can elaborate, but if seller financed, some of the hoops may not exist. Just a thought.

You're doing good, mimi. Very good. I suggest again you hold off now on the snooping. You can find out everything you need to know thru legal channels about this condo stuff - without the risk of LBs. If your H finds out you're spying on him with a PI, it'll be very tuff to recover from that.

WAT

WAT:

I'm not using the PI anymore at all. I was trying to get my info. ready for the lawyer tomorrow.

I did tell my WS that we would not need a legal separation if he is able to indicate to me that he has ended the R with his OW. I know that will not happen. I did not tell him about my appt. with the lawyer tomorrow. He cooly said Ok, in response to this comment by me. This was one thing that I got out of my session with Steve. The fact that he is with her makes him "dangerous" to me. Steve described him as a "loose cannon", "out of control".

Will be back later.

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

mimi - you are in control. You've got the best minds on this and your ducks are in a row.

You have every reason to feel confident.

Puff yourself up and ACT confident. It will have an effect.

OK?

WAT

Session with Steve:

Steve continues to focus on the my WS' affair as being an extreme addiction. He sees him as "out of control", a "loose cannon", not thinking rationally or clearly. Therefore, my first goal is to obtain a legal separation to "protect myself from his actions." Steve feels that my "safety from the dangerous actions caused by his addiction are more important than anything else."

He did not say anything about a Plan B letter. He says that after I obtain the legal separation I will probably need to move to "something like a Plan B". He did not give further details. He did want me to understand this concept: the purpose of Plan B would be to prevent him from "damaging" me to the point that I "give up hope for the marriage". He fears that I will begin to hate my WS because of his behavior and that will lead ME into divorce court which he feels is unnecessary and preventable in my case.

He says that I might eventually think about suing the OW for "alienation of affections". "If you can't get rid of the drug,get rid of the drug dealer" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He feels that my WS needs to suffer the consequences of his actions. Needs to spend money to buy his own furniture. Do not give him furniture out of the house. Also, he needs to give up the keys to the house. He's not giving me the keys to the condo.

I expressed concern that he really is "in love" with the OW. Steve says "there's nothing in it that says it will work; he's under the influence of an addiction". He says his "intellectual realization about the truth of the matter" will end the affair. I really don't understand this statement but it is a direct quote.

Basically, I need protect myself from this DRUG FIEND

What do you think about this, though:
My WS called me on my voicemail at work, stating that he came home to get his "black shoes" to go to a meeting tonight. He says,"I'm sorry to be so rude for not telling you beforehand. In the future, I'll let you know first. I felt like a thief in my own house"

When I got home, I discovered he did domestic things around here: emptied the coffepot filter, straightened the pillows on the couch, got a washcloth and washed his face <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , emptied the garbage can, etc. Plus, he still has not taken anymore clothes. Did he buy a whole new set? Is he wearing the same clothes over and over. Weird!

Mimi, you need and have a right to know of this other stash of money!
When you see the lawyer, find out about legal disclosure of all assets and an accounting.
No marriage should have secret accts!And half that money is yours!
The legal separation you said would give him the right to buy on his own. But you still are entitled to know where the money is and how much.
Is he using company money? He has his own business you said. A general account?
All these things have to be disclosed to you!
Good luck and be sure to pick that lawyers brain good!And ask about suing her for alienation of affection. I thought of that too! Just to get back money he spent on her as well! It was half mine! And fancy hotels, expensive and meals. Plus he says he didn't but I think he sent her money for her airline tickets.
I heard one woman got a settlement of $400,000 from OW! At least she got a court order, but who knows if she'll ever collect. But she can now attach anything the OW ever owns or has. LOL
Yeah! LouLou

quote:
What do you think about this, though:
My WS called me on my voicemail at work, stating that he came home to get his "black shoes" to go to a meeting tonight. He says,"I'm sorry to be so rude for not telling you beforehand. In the future, I'll let you know first. I felt like a thief in my own house"

When I got home, I discovered he did domestic things around here: emptied the coffepot filter, straightened the pillows on the couch, got a washcloth and washed his face [[Smile]] , emptied the garbage can, etc. Plus, he still has not taken anymore clothes. Did he buy a whole new set? Is he wearing the same clothes over and over. Weird!

The reason this is happening is because you are now starting to show some strength. He is starting to respect you because he is wondering if you are starting to let go... Keep up the strong front.. It is working... Do not tell him what you are thinking other than that YOU have decided that this is for the best... Keep talking to him from what YOU have decided and not ask him what he wants...

Remember what Dr. Dobson writes about not showing all of your cards. He says"If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship." He also says," These developments are EXTREMELY common in families I have seen.Three distinct consequences can be ANTICIPATED when a previously"grabby" lover begins to let go of the relationship."

His answers are in chapter 5.......

You are doing great.... Keep getting tough and stronger with him...Be nice, but stay strong and determined that if he wants to leave, that is fine, but he may not have you to fall back on... Let him wonder what is going on in your mind........

Thanks, Keep:

Yes. Dobson principles are working in my case. I quoted most of what I said to my WS in our long conversation on Monday straight from the book. I'm off to read Chapter 5 again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 10:13 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Just had to pop in and give you a pat on the back for handling this sooo wonderfully. You are doing a great job, hang in there!

About the snooping, and this is just me, but I'd have to see if I could catch OW there just once. Just once, that's all I'd need just to get the point across to WS that he isn't going to get away with pulling anything over on me. If he got po'd about it I'd tell him I just had to know if there was even just one honest bone left in his body and leave it at that.

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

Mthr:
LOL!!! To be honest, I do want to catch her there. She was home tonight at 11:00. She lives near me and I drove by her house. Last night she wasn't home but her car was not parked at his place. They hid it somewhere. They'll get comfy and then I'll get 'em. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mimi,
I just wanted to say what a great job your doing!! I know it is hard but try to focus on your needs now also. It might help to write down a list of things you'd like to do and do them. You mentioned hiking-it would be great to go hiking with a friend or join the Sierra Club and go on their hiking excursions. My sisters husband is having an affair and to make her feel better I treated both of us to a spa day and hair makeup makeover. We both felt great afterword. Treat yourself to some new clothes to show off your new slimmer body!

You sound very up to date on your finances but please talk to your lawyer about the secret bank account and have your lawyer get a copy of the condo agreement so you can see if the ow is on it. Please correct me if I'm wrong but did you mention that the ow is working for your accountant? If so this is a major conflict of interest with the accountant and I would be worried about the ow accessing your financial information. You might want to speak to your laywer about this also. I wonder were the secret stash is coming from. He could be taking money from a retirement account, college account or could have set up an account with a brokerage firm were they would deposit the dividends from stocks and he can write checks against it. Your lawyer may be able to get information on this. Don't ask H he won't tell the truth and it would be a love buster. It may also be helpful to run a credit report on you and hubby. You can do this online for less then $10.00 at the big comapnies equifax ect.

I think it's great that your trying to let him go because I know I would be watching the apartment like a hawk to find her. BTW-you say you can't find her car. Can your husband be picking her up and dropping her home later? Could the condo have a underground garage or could she be parking at a mall or store near there and walking over?

Keep up the great work!

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 05:43 AM: Message edited by: deborahd ]</small>

Deb:

Thanks for your interest and support. I'm glad that I am not the only one that feels compelled to snoop. I'm trying to change this tendency but I do want to catch her at the condo just once like mthrr has said.

The pattern typically is for her to drive to where he is. I know her pattern. When she is at home , her car is at home. I do the snooping, not a PI. She lives near where I live.

She used to work for our accountant. That's probably why she lured him, being aware of our financial situation. I think she's a golddigger. That makes her particularly dangerous.

My WS told me how he was saving the extra money. Our retirement accounts are secure. He could have stocks that I do not know about but no longterm investments. I checked with out broker about the retirement accounts/mutual funds.

My problem is that I am getting more and more pissed about having total household responsibilities including childrearing. I have to get my son picked up and to and from certain places while he is "footloose and fancy free". His LBs are increasing with me.

I have my appt. with the attorney this afternoon.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Mthr:
LOL!!! To be honest, I do want to catch her there. She was home tonight at 11:00. She lives near me and I drove by her house. Last night she wasn't home but her car was not parked at his place. They hid it somewhere. They'll get comfy and then I'll get 'em. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi,
You have released him to this and in order for him to EVER suffer the consequences of his decision, you need to leave him alone to do it. Otherwise, the fantasy will NEVER wear off. The more you do this stuff the LONGER it will take for him to ever wake up. If you put obstacles between him and the OW, he will only want her MORE. You don't want to push him towards her more, but want HIM to push her away. That is the ONLY way this will end. So PLEASE don't interfere with that!

A big ditto to Mel. I was close to disagreeing with mthrrhbrdhhr, but was too chicken. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think we all understand the desire, but leave OW alone. You are FAR above her, don't stoop to her level.

WAT

Ok, Mel and WAT. But can I know without letting them know that I know? Just for my own curiosity's sake?

I'm hearing lots of stories about the middle aged man marrying the younger woman. That's scaring me. Does that happen alot? Did those BS push their Hs into the OW's arms?

I'm more and more angry though than really wanting to chase after him or feeling that I want him back right now. HONESTLY!!! The anger is not a good sign though, is it?

Also, I am very much really feeling like she is not on my level!!!!!

<small>[ February 05, 2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

LOL! DAVE! Don't tell me ML has more ovaries than you have huevos?! Don't be chicken, I luv and respect ya, and all your opinions. I think most of as are adult enough here to agree to disagree on some things.

Here's the way I see it. Knowledge is power. Catching them won't drive them together in my opinion if you do it right, it will only bring it out into the blinding light even faster and you want that. As long as you do not catch them together, they can go on with a clandestined feeling about their get togethers. It's mysterious and fun to feel like your hiding and getting away with something. If they weren't still caught up in that kind of feeling, there would be no reason for them to hide her car, right? Afterall, you already know he's having an affair! What's the point in hiding the car? It's because it feels more exciting to feel like you're hiding and getting away with pulling the wool over someone's eyes. Caught red handed, just one time, blows that feeling right out of the water. You can use that one occurance greatly to your advantage. By simply saying to him what I offered in the last post and then making yourself less available and doing all those kinds of things to show you've got it together and are confident in yourself and have a life of your own, you'll give him even more to worry and think about. You'll have ALL the knowledge any spouse could ever want to have and he'll be the one left wondering. Not a very comfortable spot for him to be in when he's already confused about what he wants and he obviously is. As always, JMHO!

Mthrr is making a good point.

Why is she continuing to hide her car? Is he thinking that I would make a scene?

I do need to continue to give him the impression that "I don't care".

I just want to be able to tell him matter of factly when I talk to him that I know she's been over there. I don't need to prove to him how I know. I want to see it for myself. It gives me more conviction when he lies to me straignt in the face like he does.

We'll see. I'll continue to give this some thought.

Re: secret account
Mimi- tax time is coming up. Where do your financial statements go to? Get a copy of all your 1099's etc.

Any bank account will normally spin off interest which must be reported to the government. The 1099's for all your bank accounts should be arriving about now. If your H owns stocks you don't know about, there may be dividends. Anyway, I'll bet he keeps his secret stash in cash in a bank account. So you should be able to find out the bank account number and see how much interest has been generated which might help you figure out how much is in there.

Is OW still working for your accountant? Maybe you would want to change accountants.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong>LOL! DAVE! Don't tell me ML has more ovaries than you have huevos?!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm not very knowledgable about women's internal plumbing, so even IF Mel doesn't mind us discussing hers, all I can say is that I'm sure about my huevos. Only two. If you meant to say "bigger" rather than "more", that's a different measurement............. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK, OK, OK. I actually agree with your argument, but I (and maybe Mel) was thinking about it completely differently. You described the potential effect of "discovery" on the infidels - blowing their cover. I was thinking of the waste of emotional energy and potential pain for mimi in pursuing such a discovery. It can only cause her more grief.

That said, even if mimi - or any BS wanting to "catch" the infidels in the act - was successful in snooping and catching OW at the condo, no one can be sure that this would have ANY impact on the OW. It could very well make the OW feel empowered and stronger because such a discovery may change nothing. OW could claim "victory" over poor, pitiful mimi, the "desperate housewife." (mimi - you know I'm speaking figuratively as OW). Or the Mothership can be in complete control and weird stuff might happen.

Despite repeated denials of an affair, I and OM's W corroborated for me to catch the infidels in Baltimore/Washington Int'l Airport as my W was greeting OM returning from a business trip. I followed them from the gate and caught them kissing at the bottom of an escalator on the way to the baggage claim. I chose not to reveal myself, though. Later that day I asked my wife how her day at work went (the conversation went something like this):

Her: It was busy.

Me: Oh? How so?

Her: <patient's name> coded and we had to put him back on a ventilator.

Me: Wow, when did that happen?

Her: This morning.

Me: (knowing OM's flight arrived at 9:00 something) I bet you didn't like not being there!

Her: Huh? What do you mean? I WAS there!

Me: How'd you get back from the airport so fast?

Her: WHAT????

Me: How'd you get back from picking up <OM> at BWI so fast?

Her: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? I WASN'T AT BWI!!!!

Me: Sure you were! I saw you.

Her: NO YOU DIDN'T!!!

Me: Oh?? I didn't see you meet <OM> arriving on USAirways flight XXX at gate C-24 at <time> and I didn't follow you down the escalator and watch you two kiss like teenieboppers on the way to pick up his black suitbag and then go get in our Honda van parked on the second level of the parking garage?

Her: NO YOU DIDN'T. IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!

Several times while my H was in the throes of it, while he was pretending that it wasn't really going on, I walked in on him while he was on the phone with her in his office. He went white and slammed down the phone. The phone rang and I picked it up and of course she hung up. I did this once or twice. It really rattled my H.

What could be interesting (if you can pull it off) is to call your H late at night once you are pretty sure that OW is there. Call him and say I really need to see you, I'll be over in ten minutes. (After all, since OW is not staying there that should be no problem, right?) Hang up quickly before he can tell you not to come. He'll probably scramble to get OW out before you get there- which will be annoying to her.

If she is there, then you just look at him in a wounded manner and say something like I really can't trust anything you say, can I?

Other possibility is he insists on talking outside the condo, be sure to drag him out for a long, emotional conversation where you can shed a few tears and say how sad the situation is.

Just an idea, not necessarily something I'm recommending doing.