I have been pondering this thought for about a month now and I am curious as to what are the thoughts of others that frequent this board.

When answering this question, there needs to be a couple of assumptions:

1- You did not know of MB or its principles/concepts prior to discovering your spouse/significant others' A.

2- If you did know of MB and its principles/concepts and worked together as a team it is unlikely that the A would have occured.

That being said, it is agreed upon by most of us that marriage is a lot more "work" than what we thought prior to D-Day. In other words, we may have thought we were doing a good job as the other person in the relationship but in reality we have all learned through reading and absorbing the concepts/principles that our previous relationships were lacking in some way- some a lot more than others. We have also learned that we are all responsible in part for where we are at today in our lives. No, I am not saying we caused the A that is occuring. What I am saying is that we did play the role of enabler to a certain extent in the demise of our respective relationships.

My question is as follows: If we can all agree that for the most part what I have said above is true then is it entirely possible that we are all waiting around for spouses/significant other's that are simply not the right people for us? In other words, great that we have all learned what "went wrong" and how we can do better in our next relationship whether it is with someone different or a different relationship with our former wayward whatever- but does the return of that person to our lives necessarily mean that they are the person that each of us deserves to have? Or are we simply settling for what we are most comfortable with and each of us are making the effort at change while not expecting to hold our wayward whatever's to the same standards that we now know are important in a relationship?

I realize this question is different for different people. Those with children may be willing to settle for less than those without- the existence of the other parent in their child's life is too important. But I am curious as to how much the BS is willing to compromise their new beliefs based on their learned MB principles just to have their former wayward other back in their lives?

I am not at this point yet, my WW is still heavily into her A. But I am not sure as to how I would feel about her possibly wanting a return someday and not grasping or wanting the same MB principles that I now believe are essential to a good M.

Does my question make sense? Maybe the best people to answer are those that have their waywards' back- have you held them to the standards that you believed were important after reading MB or is the fact that they have returned just "good enough" for you and if you have changed and are better in the relationship but they really haven't it's o.k.? Is the fact that they have come back to you enough for you to forget what you felt was most important to you (the MB teachings) when they were gone?

Sorry for the long question, but I am curious as to how low you are willing to "lower the bar" so to speak just to have your wayward return- or more importantly now that they are back do you think to yourself maybe they were not the right person for me to begin with?

Just wondering.........

Good question and one we pondered and pounded on back when I first started in 2001.

I will respond later. Need to organize my thoughts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

sadinaz:

That's actually an excellent question, related to what I've been pondering for a while now, and only recently was able to understand why I was pondering it.

My W ended her A, or so she thought, about 2 months before D-day. Unfortunately, contact continued, and most of it was "overthe line" as recently as a few weeks ago. I have no idea whether it's going on now, but based on what I've learned, I bet it is, but at a "less over the line" level after some arguments we had. Or the restating of my boundaries that I made.

While I don't follow MB principles to a T, because I believe in unconditionally loving my W (and so I will love her no matter what she does), I have thought about what you are asking many times, and more lately than before.

I don't think I'm "comfortable", but I understand what you mean - it would be very hard to split up right now, financially, the family, the whole 27 feet.

I'm trying to figure out whether my W really can be the kind of person I thought I had M'd 27 years ago. I hope she can, but I certainly can't "mold" her into anything she's not. She also needs to make her own decisions about what to do about RM. She clearly hasn't ever left me, so the "draw" to RM isn't strong enough to do so. However, that doesn't mean she wouldn't love me to tolerate him at some point, and her history shows that she'd love to cakewalk as long as I'll let her. I restate my boundaries semi-regularly, and there are signs that she's "getting it" finally, but she hasn't offered his head on a silver platter or anything like that yet.

I can be patient for a while longer, but I have been wondering lately whether I'd want to stay in the M even if she gives him up. Why do I say that? Because the person that was able to justify the A isn't gone yet, may never be, and so the possibility of another A sometime later is still on my mind (even though she says she wouldn't want another one, I have to wonder what that thought was based on?).

So, I don't know is my answer to your question...

-Qfwfq

Hi Sad,

First of all, I'm going to disagree, relationships do not take alot of work!!! I think that my relationship with my husband is alot easier now that I am using the MB principles. There is less confusion, less stress, and...more importantly...different habits.

It's not more work, its that we expend effort in more concrete and efficient directions! I think the impression of work comes from the amount of effort that we all have to put into reeducating ourselves. But maintaining the relationship, with these principles, is less work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think you'll find different answers to your question based on where people are in recovery or separation/divorce.

I took my husband back with the attitude that I deserved better, but that I would settle for the kids.

What I got was what I deserved, since he chose to practice the MB principles with me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't think anyone in Plan A is sitting around waiting for the wrong person. That they got married to that person says that the WS could choose to be the right person and that there is enough compatiblity to work it out, and a BS in plan A is simply encouraging, and leaving open every chance for the WS to choose that.

I think that rather than focus on whether or not you are wasting your time by waiting for a WS to make up their mind, you should focus on what type of person you want to be.

Do you want to be able to wake up in the morning and look in the mirror and be proud of the fact that you stood for your vows, you did everything possible to save your marriage and that your conscience is clear?

Did you do your best to be the best possible spouse to your mate? Did you take responsiblity? When adversity was flung in your face, did you turn and run?

Those are the thoughts that kept me making decisions that ultimately led to my recovered marriage. I kept my focus off of "what was my WS doing/thinking" and off of my taker's demands to "get what I deserved".

i'm not sure that i ever felt my wife wasn't the "right one",thats why i married her.she was/is the right one.what scared me was what she became while the affair was going on.after the affiar,she went back to the same old wife i had.its ammazing how fast they return and pretend nothing happened.its us(the bs) that change how we think of them(WS).thats my take anyway.
as far as how low the bar will drop,(i guess you mean our standards),they drop as far as you let them or all that you are capable of.i did things i never thought possible to try to win her back.i guess it was things i had in me all along.when your spouce has an affair the BS is put to the ultimate test.your love is pushed to the limit.and when its over reguardless of the outcome we know we gave it our all.it makes us better people.i remember my wife telling me she needs more attention.i told her time and time again i had no more to offer.but i was wrong.i learned alot about myself.
all that i did was on my own.i didn't know of MB's.the family and friends all said let her go.i didn't have the plan a&b to go by.the mb policies or guidelines.it came naturally,as it does with many that dont have the time to research this.those that are serious about thier marriage know what to do when faced with an A.atleast i did.maybe i had an angel looking out,i just dont know.
i try not to say i just settled for my wife cuz she returned.she's what i wanted.she's what i fought so hard for.you have some interesting thoughts.i actually wonder if my wife just settled for me cuz the A didn't work out.but i tell my self if she didn't want to be here she wouldnt be here.

Actually I think this also is a good time to think about recovery and what needs to happen before a BS allows it to start.

I've read time and time again regarding a false recovery situation here, and how a BS takes their WS back too fast, too easily, happy to know they want to come home, but doesn't think ahead to the future. We can change all we want, but if our spouse hasn't changed at all, we run a great risk of having this horrible process start all over again.

For me, right now, I'm at a point similar to some of you who have responded here. My W is still in her A. She lives on her own. She never has admitted that what she did was wrong. She has apologized for hurting me, and shown regret over that, but to this day does not feel that having an affair (even though she refuses to call it that) was wrong, because she did it for herself, her own happiness (selfish, ain't it?).

So, we practice MB principles. We learn. And they have their A. They don't read. They don't learn. They are basically the same person. While we're spending time here posting, reading books, and thinking, they're spending that time with the OP, just having fun, but they are NOT improving themselves. They are not learning about relationships. They are, for all intensive purposes, the same person that left us for someone else. And they probably will be, for the most part, until the fog lifts and they realize they want to come back (if that day ever comes).

I often think about how much I have grown in these past 3 months. How much more I know about relationships, how much more I know about a marriage, women in general, and how 2 people can relate better. I understand my wife better. However, she is the same person that walked out the door 3 months ago. She hasn't learned anything new about relationships or healthy marriages. If we were to start over tomorrow, and she wasn't interested in MB principles or at least some sort of education herself, my life would be hell. I'd have no reassurance that an A wouldn't happen again. After all, she wouldn't be any different than the wife who had an A on me the first time.

So, I have been told, and I believe it, to NOT just welcome my WW home should she express interest in coming back. You must have some sort of agreed upon recovery plan. This gets me back to the original question at hand. I think that recovery plan SHOULD involve the WS taking part in some sort of MB principles. Whether it be just talking about the marriage, reading some of the books, filling out an EN, whatever. Without that, I wouldn't take my WW back. I am just setting myself for a fall. I can be a better person but it takes two people to fix a marriage. And without a WS being willing to learn a little on their own, I think it's a recipe for disaster. For a false recovery.

ALS

I had no idea about MB principles. When I found out my W was having an A I started looking for answers. When I found this site and started reading I realized that even though I didn't deserve to be treated this way, I really made a lot of mistakes that I never realized I was making. I have learned so much already and really look forward to a relationship where we both use these principles to be happy together. I think most of the basic principles the Harley's talk about are absolutely essential to a happy marriage. My W will not be coming home until she is familiar with them and agrees wholeheartedly to live our life with them and to learn about herself. That sounds like I'm making demands, but I know if she won't do these things we will be in trouble again at some point and I'm NEVER doing this again!

I have never felt I "lowered the bar" by wanting my H back. I knew what kind of man he was, he had simply allowed himself to overcome by depression and I knew tha tif he did the psychological and spiritual work to pull himself out of it he'd grow and emerge as a different man.

I have the kind of marriage now that I wanted when I was married but was just too young and naive to know how to get. Same for my H. He's so different now. Almost losing his family has given him a profound respect and incredible, deeper love for our family. He grew up, he has become selfless where he used to be selfish, he is more tender with me than I could have ever imagined.

I knew he had it in him all the time we were married. I was waiting patiently for that man to emerge. Little did I know that going through something so painful could actually transform our marriage. Is it perfect? No, but we've learned sooo much and see ourselves so differently and have such respect for each other that no way would I want to start all over with someone else.

Really now, most people know deep down whether their spouse is someone with integrity or not. Sure there are some WS that are self centered and have affairs to thrill themselves and stroke their egos. they do so repeatedly with no regard for the BS. It's look out for #1 for them and they're #1. If you have that kind of spouse then maybe you are better off not reconciling. But if you have a decent, loving spouse that is having a crisis at a certain point in time and has an affair but is a good person at their core, why would you want to start all over with somebody new? It takes along time to know someone's character.You might just end up in the same situation with another spouse. For me it was worth it to give my H another chance and both of us and our children are reaping the benefits to this very day. I honestly don't think he'll ever cheat again. If it gets brought up the man gets tears in his eyes. He can't stand the thought of what he did and what he almost lost. He's repentant, has turned and gone in a new direction and it shows in the way he treats me every day and I am one very happy wife and mother.

On the subject of recovery, I had requirements for him to come back home. He enthusiatically met each and every one. He proved that home was where he wanted to be and continues to do so each and every day. It interesting to see him now, counsel friends and coworkers considering infidelity, to wake up before they make the biggest mistake of their lives. He's a wonderful man! He makes me mad sometimes and we fight sometimes but he's wonderful nonetheless.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">have you held them to the standards that you believed were important after reading MB or is the fact that they have returned just "good enough" for you and if you have changed and are better in the relationship but they really haven't it's o.k.? Is the fact that they have come back to you enough for you to forget what you felt was most important to you (the MB teachings) when they were gone?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H & I are unusual. We were separated 7 times, 14 out of 21 months. His PA lasted 18 month, d-day wasn't until 9 months, the 2nd separation. We separated 2 more times AFTER the PA was over. My Plan A was 18 months, then we had the 7th separation, at which point I discovered further EA contact, I served divorce papers, started dating, H did a Plan A on me (after all, I'd been talking MB for a long time). He still works with the FOW, but at that time began to be strictly professional. I ended my dating, 2-3 months later he moved home. We've been reconciled now since 5/00.

My H is a great husband. We both give everything we have to the marriage. That did not happen in the previous reconciliations.

If he was just "good enough"...we'd be divorced. If I hadn't forgiven him and allowed the healing to happen...and remember, he'd burned me 6 times, we'd be divorced.

My situation wasn't likely to lead to reconciliation. In infidelity situations where neither separation nor the A continuing past discovery happens, the recovery is an easier process. All the WS has to do is truly stop contact, all the BS has to do is allow the WS's efforts to be trustworthy to have their effect.

In our case, there was nothing my H could promise or vow or say that he hadn't blasted away in some earlier "try". His actions, words, accountablity, consistancy, constancy all had to be in action for months...to years...before it really was real for me.

At points during the separations or failed reconciliations, I felt that all I wanted was my H in the house...but, as soon as I had that, I wanted more. I wanted to meet his needs (which he didn't want me to meet at times) or have my needs met, or interaction, communication, love, play, sex, house maintenance, etc.

We tried an in-house separation, it was the worst one. He wanted to be here for our kids...but it drove me nuts to have him walk out of the house and refuese to tell me where he was going or when/if he'd return. His having a separate household was much better. I didn't know when he was out... and when he was here, he meant to be here and the kids had his attention, and I could arrange for his time, as needed.

And, our children were 10 & 13 at our first separation. When we reconciled, any time that we did, except for the disastrous in-home separation, it was not for the children. He did use the kids as a reason, and, I feel any reason is ok...it can be built upon. But, kids only...doesn't really lead to a firm foundation.

Kids don't need to see either parent haring off after some cute/desirous "other". We agreed that when we truly reconciled that it was for marriage, we also agreed at that point that no matter what, we'd co-parent appropriately. That was no problem for me, in the 14 months we were separated, all but a few nights had been spent with me.

So, in short, for reconciliation, the WS has to stop contact, as well as able (OP neighbors, co-workers, relatives, etc are bad bargains, but a WS who wants to do the right thing can accomplish it), behave trustworthily, with accountability. The BS is open to forgiveness, putting the A into the past, deals with triggers, sadness, anger.

A true recovery is both partners giving full effort, even if the effort doesn't appear the same, the effort is there.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realize this question is different for different people. Those with children may be willing to settle for less than those without- the existence of the other parent in their child's life is too important. But I am curious as to how much the BS is willing to compromise their new beliefs based on their learned MB principles just to have their former wayward other back in their lives?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes children do play an important factor in making a BS decide to accept the WS back, but not if the WS was/is so abusive in his/her behavior towards the BS and the children. It depends on the situation and the parties involved.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not at this point yet, my WW is still heavily into her A. But I am not sure as to how I would feel about her possibly wanting a return someday and not grasping or wanting the same MB principles that I now believe are essential to a good M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you really want to rebuild your M, you can not take her back without her sincere attempt and willingness to jointly implement a plan of marital recovery based on the MB principles. Otherwise you would be setting yourself up for a false recovery (with a significant loss of enough love units) to make any future attempts at rebuilding the M, slim at best.

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: CoffeeMan ]</small>

In all honesty our children did make a difference to my decision...I left them with him... to this day I can't explain that, I dont think there is an answer.

Do I think I lowered my standards when I first decided to come back to the marriage...yes I do .And thats something I am still working on forgiving myself for. I broke my own boundries by taking him back after the second D-day. I broke a promise to myself, that I would protect myself and children and I failed us all ...all for him. We were hit with a double whammy, and I let it happen by living by his standards not mine.

Now with what I know. As my gp put it...you as the hurt partner, with a now very remorseful husband are in a postion of great power, just use that power wisely. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

He now must by his own willingness live by the code of honesty. I cant make him do it, but I can now make my own choices as to what is best for myself and our children. I will not lower my standards again. Not even for the man I love.

This is an excellent question and I agree with your first two points so you know that it applies to my M.

I will speak first from WS point of view. I never thought that my H was not right for me. I was always crazy about him at the beginning if our M. We drifted and became two separate people living under one roof. Now that we are in recovery I am back to the same head over heals in love feeling that I had when we first married. That's due to some willing hard work on our parts - spending at least 15 hrs a week, constantly depositing LU's, avoiding LB's. These concepts in reality work very well in our M. I know that am where I am supposed to be.

Speaking for my H who is the BS I can confidently say that he has not lowered the bar and does not think worse of me than he did before. I confessed my brief A to him of my own choice. He said that he forgave me and knew that he could begin to trust me again once he saw an extreme remorse from me a few days after D-day. He knew then that I was sincere and repentent. He just recently told me this and I have been working hard at regaining his trust and love. Yes, there are kids involved but that really is secondary to the decision of staying together. I was concerned that my H doesn't view me as the same person as before my A. He said that he still places me on that high pedestal that he did prior to my A. That he cherishes me and wants me.

So, no, the bar is not lowered, my H is deeply in love with me and said he wouldn't trade me for anyone else in the world. For that I am truly thankful.

<strong>
But does the return of that person to our lives necessarily mean that they are the person that each of us deserves to have? Or are we simply settling for what we are most comfortable with and each of us are making the effort at change while not expecting to hold our wayward whatever's to the same standards that we now know are important in a relationship?
</strong>

Good question. For my part, I think I realize now much more what is important and (mostly) now behave accordingly. For my WW's part, I think she is slowly beginning to see sense. Does that mean that I "might settle for less for the child's sake and simply because it's cozy"?

I think it's still too early for me to tell. I know that my wife *could* fulfil my needs. She has done so in the past. She doesn't now - either because she doesn't want to, or simply because she can't. If that is not going to change, then I will not settle for 'second best', but walk. Our relationship is still v. fragile, and all outcomes are still very much possible. But, being an optimist, being hopeful, and simply being a believer in the state of marriage (especially when children involved), I am willing to settle for 'second best' for the time being. But the clock is ticking.

Will my wife feel like 'lowering the bar' and settle for me instead of OM, because of £££, because of the comfy security & home, because I'm the father of her child....? Or because she really (will) love me (again)? This is one of the questions I still have to find an answer.

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>