It's been one very long, emotionally draining week. I've cried a million tears over the loss of my FIL, and a million more over guilt about my A.

I got to spend large quantities of time with my H. I got to sleep next to him (spooning!) 7 out of the last 8 nights. I got to hang out and watch tv with him. I got to comfort him, and got to have many conversations with him as well. A lot of what got discussed was positive, but he still likes to do things to drive me crazy, such as:

- he told me an elaborate lie about how he went for counselling, and made up a pile of stuff, including how his counsellor told him he had attachment issues (since his sister died of SIDS when he was 2 years old); that he needs to be with me physically to feel accepted by me, and when I say no (even when he asks rudely) that I am pushing him away and hurting his feelings; and more things not worth mentioning. (He confessed to lying about this, told me I was gullible and laughed his a$$ off at me, which put me in tears.)
- he tells me how he thinks he can honestly choose between me and his two EA buddies, like they really are ready and waiting to marry him someday down the road.
- he tells me how he "could have had" one of our friends we've known since high school that came to the funeral, and how she would've been a better catch b/c she never would've cheated on him.

I got to see his 2nd female friend (the one that let him live with her) at the funeral too. I was even nice enough to wave at her and smile! (I promised to be nice.) She never moved from her chair during the lunch that followed the service. He later told me that she is terrified of me, since the last time I was anywhere near her was the night I found out she'd given my H keys to her place and I went absolutely nuts!! I'm glad she's afraid of me. That's a mighty good thing, right?

My H's family treated me like family throughout all of this past week, it was so good to see them all again. I've missed them very much. It's so sad that I won't get to ever see my FIL again and make amends with him. Thankfully when I sent a card and flowers to him when he was in the hospital in the fall, I told him how much I loved him.

So, the big fear on my H's part of his family never being able to accept me again isn't anything for him to worry about. That hurdle has been overcome. I even get the impression now that if he does decide to divorce me that I still will be encouraged to visit them regularly.

So now I'm back home (after spending just about an entire week with my H off and on), and he wants some time to "get his head straight" and figure out what he wants.

Why does he tell me some of the crazy things I listed up above? Any one have any clue?

My current strategy will be to leave him alone this week, but if I don't hear from him by next weekend, I'm going to contact him or go over to see him b/c I left some of my stuff there (oops!). Sound smart?

Jen

<small>[ February 04, 2003, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Hi Jen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> ... I'm glad she's afraid of me. That's a mighty good thing, right?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually it is not good thing. You will be come their bond <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . You should be a fly on the wall & remove yourself from his A.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Why does he tell me some of the crazy things I listed up above? Any one have any clue? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fog ? body snatched ?. You see, if you are the bad one he is the good one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>My current strategy will be to leave him alone this week, but if I don't hear from him by next weekend, I'm going to contact him or go over to see him b/c I left some of my stuff there (oops!). Sound smart?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You hang around w/ WAT & Chris & TMCM & others ... That is the idea, keep the line open just in case the alien get tired of H and let him go.

Hang in there. -rh-

So it's not a good thing she's afraid of me. But how do I change that? Remember, I know that I cannot live with her being in my H's life if he and I get back together....

I read another thread just now that made me wonder something....maybe my H is pushing my buttons HOPING he'll get me to scream at him and LB. I even recall saying that to him, "Why are you saying this? Why are you doing this? Do you want me to get all mad and scream at you or what??" Maybe my continual Plan A is bothering him, and he'd rather have the psycho old me back?? RH - If I am the bad one, then he is the good one? Elaborate please, as this all seems to relate.

Oh and get this, EA woman #2 also told him that he is emotionally manipulative. I told him I agree with her. Darn it anyway, why did she figure it out so fast, and I had to be away from my H for months to realize it?

The ever needy JB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why does he tell me some of the crazy things I listed up above? Any one have any clue? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's a total psycho. No seriously, he is still obviously trying to punish you for you PA's and is enjoying torturing you with his little boy games. I wonder what he is going to do if JB loses all her love for him and decides to move on with her life (he'll probably come here to MB asking for help to regain his xW).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>So it's not a good thing she's afraid of me. But how do I change that? Remember, I know that I cannot live with her being in my H's life if he and I get back together....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't change anything but you don't add more fuel to it. When H is ready he has to follow "How A should end" ... NC letter follows with all the monitoring safety on your hand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I read another thread just now that made me wonder something....maybe my H is pushing my buttons HOPING he'll get me to scream at him and LB. I even recall saying that to him, "Why are you saying this? Why are you doing this? Do you want me to get all mad and scream at you or what??" Maybe my continual Plan A is bothering him, and he'd rather have the psycho old me back?? RH - If I am the bad one, then he is the good one? Elaborate please, as this all seems to relate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WS needs to justify his actions and continues the addiction. My exW pushed my button to give her excuse to "cool" down out side and complaint to every one that I am abusive. When I learn about plan A, I stop LB'ed and bit my tounge and she actually moved out !!!. WS will paint a bad picture of you to make him look good. When WS does this kind of thing don't engage it, walk away and bite your tounge.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Oh and get this, EA woman #2 also told him that he is emotionally manipulative. I told him I agree with her. Darn it anyway, why did she figure it out so fast, and I had to be away from my H for months to realize it?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the danger of OP. They are somehow have EI (emotional intelligent) about R but they use it for chasing someone's else SO.

-rh-

<small>[ February 02, 2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Jen - You've had an emotionally draining week. I was shocked at your H's comments about the made up couselling appt and the "joke". That's no joke, but maybe it's one of those things you had to be there for to understand the jist of what he meant. He would drive me nuts but I'm glad you're hanging in there. He doesn't seem to recognize that he too is having at least one A (EA).

His comments are made to hurt you and to make you react. Just don't - especially about comments that other women wouldn't be unfaithful to him - please, just don't go there with him.

After my brief A ended my H commented (when he was still very hurt and in shock) that he should just move on with his life and find someone else. Someone who wouldn't screw around on him. My response was that that may be true but he did not absolutely know that. He did, however, know that I was willing to make our M work. I think it's a self-defense mechanism caused from being hurt.

I agree with comments above that your H would have to do a NC letter, etc. Nothing different about that.

Keep your dignity as you have been doing. You will show him by your actions that you are a good woman. Do not get into the mud-flinging with him or his OW. OW would love you defame you as much as possible so it's important to keep out of any crap like that.

It's hard to know exactly what your H is thinking b/c you've admitted that he can be emotionally manipulative. Why does he do that? He must have spent time doing that before your A and that's not appealing at all. I don't know if I could handle that. One response may be to comment that when he makes these remarks that it hurts you. He may like that, but if you at least tell him, it's better so that he understands your hurt. You must remain real to him but controlled (no LBing).

Glad to know that his family is accepting of you. This was an opportunity for healing for you with respect to his family. You know that accept you and that his father loved you. That's important so that you can begin to move forward. It seemed to be an issue before so at least that is clear now. H can't use that against you. Continue your plan and I agree you should drop by his place to get your things. Good plan.

Jen,

Why does he do/say the things he does? Old habits die hard. He is used to playing with your mind...why shift gears now?

He does know how to push your buttons. He does this rather than communicate. And the things he says are ridiculous.

For example...What purpose does it serve to tell you about all the women he could have had in the past or have in the future? It is plainly irrellevant and does nothing but reinforce insecurity. Truth be told...the reverse is probably more true and his greatest fear...that there is a line of men who would crawl through glass to have you for a wife.

The elaborate counseling lie. He is thinking about his behavior but instead of dealing with his issues in a healthy manner he twists his contemplations to lessen their sting. He makes a sick joke out of his own problems as a way to mitigate the actual truth in these issues.

Even though it was not my comment I think the you bad/him good issue is right on point. Your marriage is a see-saw. Keeping you always at fault seems to lessen his guilt over the way he leads his life. He is under the juvenile belief that if you "misbehave" he is elevated because you have lowered yourself and that his reactionary behavior is only reasonable. This is only a reality on "THE PLANET DENIAL" (he must have a vacation home here because he could be the king of the planet.)

Why did the OW see his manipulative nature before you...because she is not bogged down by a deep love for the man you know/knew he can be. You sometimes forget you are his wife, regardless of your mistakes. As his wife and long-time companion you see your lives very intertwined...you see what you are together. Over time you find it hard to understand behavior outside of that bond. Married people sometimes positively or negatively fail to see the individuality of their mate. The frailties of your mate become so connected to our feelings of self worth we sometimes fail to see the truth of the situation.

Just as a learing excercise and not to dredge up sad feelings; think of you and the OM. You never had any real bond. His existance was a means to an end, as was yours to him. You were never building a life. Your husbands OW/EA is doing the same thing...she looks in a selfish way at your husband...what can he do for me...she just happened to see the chink in the chain before you because her feelings are selfish. Maybe she sees this only to tell you in hopes of driving you further apart...maybe she truly thinks she can "heal" him as so many OW think. Do not trust her at all. Do not feel bad because she notices things you did not see. Her motives will always be tainted.

And as for the Other OW beign afraid of you. I will disagree with the majority. Good for you. She should be afraid...of you...and of herself. She is pathetic still trying to convince herself she is some righteous friend just trying to help. BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! PU-LEAS!

Now I do agree with those who have said it could become a bond between them but only if you enhance the fear. You are not doing that. She should be ashamed and afraid of her behavior coming to light. You never involve yourself in someone else's marriage the way she did. This is one of those secrets between two women. It is the smile coupled with the knowing look: "Try as you might you will not have him." You never give her reason to fear you...kill her with kindness. Your strength and class will petrify her more. After all your husband's bad-mouthing of you, complaints, etc. and after all her Miss GOODYTWOSHOES friend act who was seated at his side at his lowest moment...who was welcomed as one of their own by the family...You...NOT the OW...YOU...THE WIFE. And who was seated alone choking on crow at lunch? HER! She should be afraid of that sort of bond.

You see the difference between your OM and these nit-wits is your affair was a mistake. Selfishly enaged in to serve your own purpose without regard for anyone else. However these women actually aim to undermind your marriage. They look for the cracks and start chiseling away. This to me is so much more insideous. It reminds me of Christ...sure the soldiers nailed him up but Judas planned his betrayl. These women plot to harm...we all make mistakes and we are all selfish at times but not everyone seeks to better themselves at the specific expense of others.

Finally, I think you both need some time to regroup. See how you are feeling, see what he does then go from there. Allow yourself some recovery time. And hang in there.

ayslyne

Jen,

IMHO, as a betrayed wife, I believe your h's comments are a call for help. He needs reassurance that you love him... he is probably not deliberately trying to hurt you, but having trouble communicating to you the truth of how hurt he is over the A.

I would go out of my way to plan a, especially after the loss of his father.

I would apologize for any nutzo exhibits of character or anger over all this mess.... I too went psycho and I am still paying for it. It takes a while to prove people you won't again go psycho... and we don't want to, do we?

Anyway, tired this am, but your post stood out to me. I think you and your h are definitely on good ground to reconcile! I wish you the best- I think just showing him love and commitment is a great way to go for now.

Hugs, H

Jen,

I have to agree with Honey on this one. I think that H is REALLY lost right now, and he is turning to the only behaviors that he knows. He is establishing "control" over you by manipulating your emotions. This is estblishing in his mind that his "territory" is safe and he can continue to act the way he has. If the reactions aren't there from you, then the shift will have to happen from him so he can regain control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - he told me an elaborate lie about how he went for counselling, and made up a pile of stuff, including how his counsellor told him he had attachment issues (since his sister died of SIDS when he was 2 years old); that he needs to be with me physically to feel accepted by me, and when I say no (even when he asks rudely) that I am pushing him away and hurting his feelings; and more things not worth mentioning. (He confessed to lying about this, told me I was gullible and laughed his a$$ off at me, which put me in tears.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you positive that he didn't go to counseling. Have you verified any of this, either way? To me, some of those things are hard to make up. Is he perhaps being vulnerable, and then covering it up to protect hisself? You know in your heart what truth is and what the lies are - why do you think it hurt you so badly.......there WAS truth in what he said.

I personally suggest that you continue to do what your doing. Try to step back some from the emotional attachment, though. The less he can "push" your buttons, the more power you will have over yourself.

I'm sorry that he was so cruel. You deserve better treatment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I read another thread just now that made me wonder something....maybe my H is pushing my buttons HOPING he'll get me to scream at him and LB. I even recall saying that to him, "Why are you saying this? Why are you doing this? Do you want me to get all mad and scream at you or what??" Maybe my continual Plan A is bothering him, and he'd rather have the psycho old me back?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I had some words of wisdom but they appear to be lacking today.

Which thread was that as I often feel the exact same way. That my wife is pushing buttons to see or make me react to certain things. It is absoutely driving me bonkers! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> - he told me an elaborate lie about how he went for counselling, and made up a pile of stuff, including how his counsellor told him he had attachment issues (since his sister died of SIDS when he was 2 years old); that he needs to be with me physically to feel accepted by me, and when I say no (even when he asks rudely) that I am pushing him away and hurting his feelings; and more things not worth mentioning. (He confessed to lying about this, told me I was gullible and laughed his a$$ off at me, which put me in tears.)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you positive that he didn't go to counseling. Have you verified any of this, either way? To me, some of those things are hard to make up.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen - I was having the same thoughts as kily on this. Perhaps he wants to be both vulnerable and elusive with you simultaneously.

I'm also with CoffeeMan - he's interested in punishing you some more.

After your intensive week, perhaps you should back off now. You demonstrated your worth and he knows it. What will you do when he resorts to his old tricks, "Wanna f***?" If this happens, will you PLEASE consider a Plan B-like approach?

WAT

Thanks for all of your input.

First of all, in regards to a NC letter for either of the women that I consider EAs and that my H considers "just friends".....he won't be willing to do that, and besides NC isn't possible as they all work together. (Although I'm pretty darn good at NC with my former OM - I haven't said two words to him in months.) I have told my H that the one EA woman (who he lived with for two weeks, and we've both only known for about 1 year) has to be gone from his life and that I'm not willing to be friends with her, or I'm not willing to be with him. As for the other EA woman, my H and I have both been good friends with her for over 4 years, but she originally was his friend first b/c they work together, so after the whole separation thing, she got a lot closer to him, and I rarely could be bothered to see her as a result. So, my point is I haven't told my H he'd have to cut her off. But he would have to "cut down" on their contact, or modify it at least.

Quick question - what's the difference between a friendship and an EA? Do people in an EA tell each other they love each other and want to be together? Or is it an EA if they simply discuss vast amounts of very personal info?

As several of you indicated, I'm going to have to work on not letting him push my buttons, and not giving him the response he's seeking. Ignoring his remarks, or just giving him a simple "I see" in response, or simply telling him that his remarks hurt my feelings might just be the trick I guess. It's deciding which response to use that will be the challenge..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Keeping you always at fault seems to lessen his guilt over the way he leads his life. He is under the juvenile belief that if you "misbehave" he is elevated because you have lowered yourself and that his reactionary behavior is only reasonable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed ayslyne, this seems to be his driving force or personal philosophy, even if he's not completely aware of it. Martyr boy is still there.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why did the OW see his manipulative nature before you...because she is not bogged down by a deep love for the man you know/knew he can be. You sometimes forget you are his wife, regardless of your mistakes. As his wife and long-time companion you see your lives very intertwined...you see what you are together. Over time you find it hard to understand behavior outside of that bond. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay you sound like my counselor here, I didn't have any boundaries left, my life was so entwined in my H's, I couldn't see the forest for the trees.... (Ayslyne - are you secretly a professional counselor? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )



</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After my brief A ended my H commented (when he was still very hurt and in shock) that he should just move on with his life and find someone else. Someone who wouldn't screw around on him. My response was that that may be true but he did not absolutely know that. He did, however, know that I was willing to make our M work. I think it's a self-defense mechanism caused from being hurt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my Krissee, I like your response to your H here. I just may have to use that!!

As for my H's EA darling, have no fear, my intention is to "kill her with kindness". I'm not going to give my H or her any more excuses to look down on me.

I think a bit of a measure of how my H knows his friendship with these women is wrong or not is this: the one that we've only known for about 1 year and that let him live with her, was welcome at the funeral, but not at his mom's place. The other friend was welcome at his mom's place, and she said over and over again how she wished she'd had another son her age for her. My MIL trusts her like I trust her (well, I don't trust her completely, but I don't think she's out to steal my H).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> IMHO, as a betrayed wife, I believe your h's comments are a call for help. He needs reassurance that you love him... he is probably not deliberately trying to hurt you, but having trouble communicating to you the truth of how hurt he is over the A.

I would go out of my way to plan a, especially after the loss of his father. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey - indeed, this will be my focus. I think he's a very upset fellow, who really needs reassurance. I even pointed out to him, albeit late at night when I am not sure he was alert enough to recall this, that the reason he needs all his female friends is b/c he's so insecure in general. Okay, so that was probably an LB....oops.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that H is REALLY lost right now, and he is turning to the only behaviors that he knows. He is establishing "control" over you by manipulating your emotions. This is estblishing in his mind that his "territory" is safe and he can continue to act the way he has. If the reactions aren't there from you, then the shift will have to happen from him so he can regain control. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh Kily, thanks for putting it that way. I need to not react in the traditional "oh okay so you can totally manipulate stupid little me" manner, so that he has to make changes within himself.

I'm positive he didn't go to counselling, sorry to say. His lies were so elaborate he tried to say he went to the same office as I did, and couldn't describe the inside of it for the life of him. He's terrified of going for fear he's told that he treated me poorly, and that indeed he has a porn addiction.

trusting her...I'm sorry, I don't recall which thread.....I'll let you know if I come across it again though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps he wants to be both vulnerable and elusive with you simultaneously. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yup, it seems that way. I figure that one side of him wants to open up to me and receive love and support from me, and the other side wants to protect himself from getting hurt again, so he hurts me first.

If he resorts to his rude way of inviting me to be with him again, I'll be having a good talk with him for sure. I'll be telling him to either talk to me and treat me with respect, or not expect to see me. I'll also be telling him that we should be able to do more than hide out in his house from now on, since we no longer have to hide from his family.

Whew! Long post, sorry everyone. Thanks for reading to the end if you got here. This is such a good way for me to process my feelings and what I need my strategy to be.

Jen

Jen:

"- he told me an elaborate lie about how he went for counselling, and made up a pile of stuff, including how his counsellor told him he had attachment issues (since his sister died of SIDS when he was 2 years old); that he needs to be with me physically to feel accepted by me, and when I say no (even when he asks rudely) that I am pushing him away and hurting his feelings; and more things not worth mentioning. (He confessed to lying about this, told me I was gullible and laughed his a$$ off at me, which put me in tears.)
- he tells me how he thinks he can honestly choose between me and his two EA buddies, like they really are ready and waiting to marry him someday down the road.
- he tells me how he "could have had" one of our friends we've known since high school that came to the funeral, and how she would've been a better catch b/c she never would've cheated on him."

How old is your H? Three???????

This is mental cruelty. This idiot doesn't love you, Jen! You deserve far better!

-Qfwfq

I guess it is mental cruelty, and it's all fine and dandy to tell me I deserve better. I just wish the better would come from him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

This may not be a healthy reason to want to be with my H, but I love his family so much, that it encourages me to give more of an effort than I felt like giving a week ago. And the amount of time I've been in prayer this week makes me feel a sense of responsibility to try to stick to my marriage vows as well, rather than just walking away. And also I thought that I got catch a glimpse of the side of my H that I love this week too, here and there, but now I'm doubting that, just reading some of these posts.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

It sucks so much that there is so much about my H that needs changing before I will ever be happy with him again, especially his emotional abuse, his treatment of me like I'm the bad one, and his refusal to accept any responsibility for the state of the M before the A.

You know what else he likes to throw in my face whenever I manage to make a point about his EAs being wrong and hurtful to me? He tells me how only those 2 women know that I've really had three As (even if the first 2 weren't sexual).

I can't stop thinking about Zoey and how her H is still holding her EA over her head 3 years post d-day. I don't want that.

What I really want, but I can't seem to have, is my H, but reformed and willing to treat me with respect and like I'm the most important woman in his life again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh, is anyone able to answer my question about the difference between an EA and a close friendship? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Holy cow, after reading Q's reply to me, I went over and read his thread http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi...pic&f=37&t=022424&p=4#000055 and wow did I ever come to a couple of whopping realizations.

For one, after reading what BrambleRose had to say, I found one more possible explanation for my cheating. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is alot more complicated than just having her cake. Her truths, learned in childhood, say that men cheat, marriages don't last. So she's got her bases covered out of fear of what she sees as inevitable.
In Al-Anon, we learn that we are often driven to turn our fears into a self-fulfilling prophecy...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My mom's first H cheated on her with her BF, and she never stopped being bitter about it her whole life.... WOW. Big realization.

Secondly, Kily wrote some things about co-dependancy: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> co-dependancy is often misunderstood. What happens is that the co-dependant person has such low esteem that they find their self worth and identity through "helping" other people. This is a way of filling up the emptiness inside of them.

The deeds that are done are given with the expectation that this will provide acceptance from the other person. This is not a problem in itself, but there comes a time, as with ANY addiction where the acceptance isn't enough. The deeds get more demanding, the person is less satisfied by the recipients reactions and it spins out of control.

Often, the co-dependant will turn to another because the satisfaction of the cycle becomes empty.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H certainly seems to find his self-worth helping and looking after other people. For all of his childhood, he was the oldest brother, the one who looked out for the rest of them. As a teacher, he gets to continue looking out for many others. As a friend to two younger female colleagues, he gets to "mentor" them and help them along in their careers and get admiration in the process too. Why does he need two of them? The first one no longer satisfied his need, so he found another one.

The more I think about his remark about attachment issues and the death of his younger sister, I wonder if he didn't really go for counselling and get told that. It would seem to fit into the puzzle, wouldn't it?

Wow, this seems to relate, but I'm not sure if I should really accept it yet, as maybe I'm jumping to conclusions to quickly.

What do you folks think?

Jen

<small>[ February 03, 2003, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen .... what does a "normal" relationship look like?

From the book "Struggle For Intimacy" by Janet Woititz (dedicated to adult children of alcoholics)

A partial quote:

"You know you are in a healthy, intimate relationship when you have created a relationship where:

1. I can be me.
2. You can be you.
3. We can be us.
4. I can grow.
5. You can grow.
6. We can grow.

Intimacy means that you have a love relationship with another person where you offer, and are offered, validation, understanding, and a sense of being valued intellectually, emotionally, and physically."

In the past, how did you respond/react when you did not feel valued by your husband? Was your affair part of your feeling devalued ? Do you think your husband's so-called "joke" was his response to feeling devalued by you?

HERE'S MY IDEA

What would happen in your relationship if, in the future, when you felt the sting of your husbands cutting remark in the form of a cruel joke, instead of reacting hurt, you reacted concerned for his well-being?????

Disarm him with love and understanding.

He told you you were gullible, to make you feel vulnerable and himself feel powerful. He laughed. You cried. .... then what happened?

THIS IS A LOVING AND STRONG RESPONSE

"You are not mean by nature. Because I've hurt you deeply in the past, you may think you have to protect yourself by pushing me away with cruel remarks. I am sorry you are hurting so much that you want to hurt me back. I think we can find our way back from this awful place where we exchange blows."

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

Hi Jen: I'll try to answer some of your ?s but am not a counsellor or a psychologist.

The way I've read and understand EA's is that information is shared of a personal and emotional level. For example, to discuss that your kids are in ballet and mention details of a recital is not an EA. But to say that your H doesn't understand you and that you feel empty inside, that would be EA material. I think that anything that would be more appropriate to share with a spouse would be material to start an EA with.

If your H is sharing details of your infidelity with OW I would call that an EA. If he's discussing the results of a basketball game he watched on TV, that's not. Maybe I'm simplifying that too much.

As far as your co-dependancy theory, I don't see your H as co-dependent - he's way too selfish or self-centered. Most co-dependent people I think of are the martyr type - you know always doing way too many nice things for people and not taking care of themselves, thriving on a crisis they can assist with, that kind of thing. They tend to reach out to help others in an unhealthy way. Teachers just guide and teach. Not sure if I'm clear on this. I'm sure others have a clearer way to explain co-dependancy.

You're probably right about his analysis on his sister's death and that he has received some type of counselling. It may not have been lately, but there's probably an element of truth to his revelation to you.

I don't think your H is a total loss, but he's got some definite soul searching to do.

A comment about your H's desire for SF. I'm sort of torn on that one and only you will know how he treats you in this regard, but I've got the following for you to consider. After I revealed my A to my H, his need for immediate SF was very apparent. I was very willing to participate and it helped with healing. He really needed to reassure himself with SF to know that I still wanted him, that he could please me and it was very important. We both are still very active that way but the first SF after revealing was quite different in nature.

Maybe there's comments from male BS's out there who could clarify this. I'm wondering if your H is experiencing some of that need right now. It's most likely one of his top EN's.

Married people do not have close personal friendships with members of the opposite sex. Couples can be friends...men and women can be polite aquaintances...discussing the weather, their children's activities, etc. Personal emotional issues are off limits. Private outings, shared jokes, personal attention. NO.

And I am no secret counselor. I just tell it as I see it. However I am sick of my job. Maybe I will consider it.

Hang in...not too much time today...I will write soon.

ayslyne

asylyne:

"And I am no secret counselor. I just tell it as I see it. However I am sick of my job. Maybe I will consider it."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
You'd be good at it, too!
-Qfwfq

Jen,

I wouldn't be so hasty to diagnose your husband.

I don't really know enough about you or your husband to make an educated guess.

But lets see. Is there a problem of addiction in your husband's family?

You can be codependent without...but I'd say its probably alot more unlikely.

What is a codependent?

Hmmm...I think codependents are primarily externally focused, but incredibly self-centered.

A perpetual victimized doormat (from choice) who seeks to control everyone and every event around him/herself.

I don't know how to describe it in a concise manner. A co-dependent has no self-esteem, relying on the opinions of others to support his/her self-identity.

A co-dependent knocks themselves out giving to others...true. But it is NOT selfless, it is profoundly selfish. A codependent gives too much in an effort to achieve a certain reaction from others. It's called manipulation at its most insidious.

Do you get the feeling that I think that co-dependency ain't no little benign disorder!?!

When I am acting like a co-dependent...I do things for others that they can and should do for themselves. What's wrong with that? Well, by doing for others, I deny the other person the benefit, the life lessons, and the growth opportunity that they might have gotten from doing for him/herself. My very giving is actually a harm to the receiver.

Not only that, but you see, my giving doesn't come without strings. Now I will probably protest and ask nothing in return. But trust me, I'm lying. My expectations are that you will: Think I am a wonderful person, and since YOU think I am wonderful, then it must be true. 2. Even cooler, maybe you'll depend on me. Codependents are sooo dependable! But you see, if you are dependant on me...then you can't leave me. See the control?

But what really happens more often than not?

Your praise, thanks and gratitude are never quite enough. And I grow resentful that you weren't appreciative in the way that *I* think you should be. And God forbid you decide that I am not incredibly necessary in your life - probably because I have attempted to manipulate and control every decision you ever tried to make, just in case your decision is different than mine, and of course, you couldn't possibly be wise enough, smart enough, to make decisions and choices for yourself, you need SMART WISE (arrogant and proud) me to tell you what to do. Besides, if I let you make decisions on your own, you might do something that hurt me. And because instead of excercising boundaries to protect myself, I attempt to exert control over others to protect myself. Of course, when you don't bow to my manipulation and control, I am resentful and angry. If only you had listened to ME. Never mind that I was bossy, disrespectful and rude, you should have listened to my superior wisdom!

What does it all boil down to? FEAR. I am afraid that I will be nothing if others don't think well of me. So I do whatever I can to appease others so that I can continue to exist. (Really, I'm not exaggerating). I am afraid that if you don't do what I want you to do, that something terrible will happen to hurt me. I don't know how to protect myself with healthy boundaries, I don't trust myself or others, I only know how to control others preemptively, to keep them from harming me. Of course I tell myself and others that I only have YOUR benefit at heart....but the reality is, my fear, my pride, my selfishness are what motivates my actions. Not virtue and charity.

When I control others out of fear that I will be abandoned, I achieve what I feared. I drive others away from me, and I feel victimized, brutalized and used...never understanding my own role in my situation.

And many codependents....like me...discovered that this whole victim thing is pretty cool. If I wail and wring my hands, or silently suffer in public, many other people will feel sorry for me and make admiring comments aboit what a wonderful person I am. And maybe, if the other person no longer responds to my demands that they do what I want them to, I can make them feel guilty enough that they'll respond the "correct, ie my" way.

So you tell me, recognize any of this?