BR:

Sorry to butt in here, but could I copy and paste this to my thread? For reference?

It almost describes my W to a T, once again. I say "almost" because there's enough specifics in there about YOU that I'm sure my W differs in some small way. But the gist of it is right on.

-Qfwfq

paste away!

Pepper – Thanks for the summary of what a healthy R should be like. I thought ours was like that, I’m not sure when it changed….wish I could pinpoint it.

Well, I think it started when my H struck up his first friendship with a female colleague, under the guise of “Jen, you’re too lazy or too busy to exercise with me, so can I exercise with “A”?” I couldn’t make the time to exercise with him (or so I thought) so I told him fine, go ahead. She was a meek sort anyway, so I thought there’d be no harm. I think that led to me not feeling as valued by him as I once was. They started spending time on the phone regularly, going shopping sometimes, etc. One day he even called her by a pet name he usually reserved for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

In the past, how did you respond/react when you did not feel valued by your husband?

I felt like I had no real room to react or complain b/c I couldn’t find the time to exercise with him. But when they got closer and I got upset and told him I wasn’t comfortable with it all, he told me “Tough, you don’t have the time to spend with me, so I’m keeping busy with her.” That, and he told me how she wasn’t a threat, she was just a friend, so stop being so darn jealous and irrational. That was the start of it I guess. He didn’t listen when I told him I didn’t like it. So I did the best thing I could (or so I thought), and became her friend too. So when I felt devalued I tried to tell him, but he wouldn’t listen. Really he probably felt devalued by me so he sought her out.

Was your affair part of your feeling devalued ?

Probably. Last spring between my H and I spending two nights a week doing part-time tutoring, his mom going through breast cancer (successfully thankfully), we didn’t get much time together. Free time on weekends got spent out drinking with our group of friends, including OM, his 2 female colleague friends, and several other friends. I did get to spend time with OM, we worked together, and we started to do some recreational things together too (skiing). After my first sexual encounter with OM, it got worse. My H worked hard to avoid me. I was dumb enough to think he knew nothing, that he was just being a jerk (and I felt even more devalued, and sought solace with OM). So along comes time #2 with OM. Then a week later was d-day.

Do you think your husband's so-called "joke" was his response to feeling devalued by you?

Hmm, you may be on to something there. But I’m a little unsure how telling an elaborate lie (about going to counseling and then pretty much saying, “Ha, I made it all up, you stupid, gullible fool!” ) is a natural response to feeling devalued.

What would happen in your relationship if, in the future, when you felt the sting of your husbands cutting remark in the form of a cruel joke, instead of reacting hurt, you reacted concerned for his well-being?????

I told him after (or while) I was crying that I didn’t know how he could live with himself treating my like that. But I do like your suggestion about acting concerned and saying “I am sorry you are hurting so much that you want to hurt me back.”

Krissee – with that definition of an EA, I guess he’s having two EA’s if he’s discussing how I treated him with both of his female friends. Here’s two things that they’ve told him that tell me they’re EAs. “A” claims to be a 26 yr old virgin. “C” (the one he lived with) has told him that she’s only ever had about 3 orgasms with a man. I know they’re in EAs. I doubt they’re telling one another how they feel undying love for each other, but they’re certainly crossed the line from friendship to EA.

As for co-dependency – my H always wants to be the martyr, even if he is fairly self-centered. He reaches out to help other people so that they’ll go on about how amazing he is, and that so they’ll owe him, so he can get them to do things for him. Although, he does always take care of himself too.

You may be right that he needs SF to feel validated and like I still want him. I know it’s probably his #1 EN. But I don’t need it as often as he does (daily, at least), so it’s almost always been a problem.

BrambleRose – There doesn’t seem to be any problem of addiction in my H’s family, at least not within his parents. They NEVER drank. I think he had an alcoholic uncle maybe. He and his brothers certainly have been known to drink too much though. Lately, my H has confessed to drinking daily, but the death of his dad has partly led to this increase. I’d venture to say my H is addicted to porn (internet and video).

My H seems to have fairly healthy self-esteem, or he used to anyway. He regularly says that he looks to everyone like he couldn’t meet my needs so he looks like a fool.

A co-dependent knocks themselves out giving to others...true. But it is NOT selfless, it is profoundly selfish. A codependent gives too much in an effort to achieve a certain reaction from others. It's called manipulation at its most insidious.

This would seem to describe my H very well! (But I used to like to think he was just a wonderful, generous person.....)

...my giving doesn't come without strings. Now I will probably protest and ask nothing in return. But trust me, I'm lying. My expectations are that you will: Think I am a wonderful person, and since YOU think I am wonderful, then it must be true. 2. Even cooler, maybe you'll depend on me. Codependents are sooo dependable! But you see, if you are dependant on me...then you can't leave me. See the control?

This too would seem to describe him. It’s like his way of making sure he has people around him (eg. His two EA women) who think he’s Mr. Perfect, even if I try to tell him that he’s not.

Your praise, thanks and gratitude are never quite enough. And I grow resentful that you weren't appreciative in the way that *I* think you should be. And God forbid you decide that I am not incredibly necessary in your life - probably because I have attempted to manipulate and control every decision you ever tried to make, just in case your decision is different than mine, and of course, you couldn't possibly be wise enough, smart enough, to make decisions and choices for yourself, you need SMART WISE (arrogant and proud) me to tell you what to do. Besides, if I let you make decisions on your own, you might do something that hurt me. And because instead of exercising boundaries to protect myself, I attempt to exert control over others to protect myself. Of course, when you don't bow to my manipulation and control, I am resentful and angry. If only you had listened to ME. Never mind that I was bossy, disrespectful and rude, you should have listened to my superior wisdom!

Dear God, this previous paragraph sounds JUST LIKE my H. It’s eerie. He's said MANY times how I can't possibly be smart enough to decide some things on my own, and if only I had listened to his supposedly superior wisdom. He has said frequently to me that he's always right, and I should never doubt him.

And many codependents....like me...discovered that this whole victim thing is pretty cool. If I wail and wring my hands, or silently suffer in public, many other people will feel sorry for me and make admiring comments about what a wonderful person I am. And maybe, if the other person no longer responds to my demands that they do what I want them to, I can make them feel guilty enough that they'll respond the "correct, ie my" way.

Again, this sounds so much like him it’s scary. Right now he’s seeming to love the whole “look at me, I’m a victim of an adulterous wife, so you (my 2 female EA buddies) must treat me well, feel sorry for me, stay by my side, and praise me and tell me how I’m the right one, the hurt one, etc.”

So yes indeed BR, I recognize a lot of the co-dependency stuff!

I know this is nearly the world’s longest post, but I wanted to systematically reply to each of your comments. Thanks for reading this far if you did!

Any more thoughts on how my H’s behaviour relates to co-dependency?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> (tired after typing so much!)

Hi Jen: I don't have too many more thoughts on your possibly co-dependent husband, but I have noticed that you've been peeling back the layers of your M problems to find the underlying problems. That is useful. The M problems were made worse by the A, but the M was in trouble long before that as you pointed out. Your H, IMO is just as guilty if not more so for the state of your M. He had TWO EA's and doesn't seem to understand the consequences of continuing them.

You on the other hand are doing a marvelous job of recovery. You are learning about yourself and your H and what got your M into this mess in the first place. That will be invaluable especially in the event that the M is saved.

I've had a few occurrences lately that have unravelled some of the complications of our M problems and I am finding the revelations very insightful. The benefit of all of this is that I am in the M and we can work through each issue as it surfaces. It is an enlightening experience. It's helpful b/c it prevents the same mistakes from occurring again and it causes us to think outside the box. You are doing the same but outside the M. It will help you.

Now if you can pinpoint that your H is actually co-dependent than you have lots of research to do to learn how to deal with him and his manipulation.

Oh yes, and a comment was made earlier about H's parents and that they don't drink at all. When people completely avoid alcohol that can be a sign that there is an addiction potential or an addiction history in the family. It's hard to explain without reference to the book but anyway, the book was called "Adult Children of Alcoholics" or something like that. It's a very interesting read.

I understand where you are coming from Jen. It is hard to know as a WS if it is smart to stay in a M once you have been caught. It's been over a year since our D-day, and my H still uses it against me. The other day I came home upset because I'm unhappy with my job and want to find another. He immediately starts asking what's going on up at work, am I running from some A. He starts asking all kinds of questions about me, like am I going to get tired of the M and move on? Anything I'm going thru emotionally, he automatically assumes it's related to an A now. I have been so good it's not even funny, it's very disheartening when you are trying to discuss a major issue going on with you, and you have to go back to that discussion again. I am feeling pretty beat up myself...

This was sent to me in an email this morning, I thought it might help you. It made me feel better.
************************************

Let Your Emotions Open Your Heart

Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits...Psalm 103:2

Dealing with my emotions can be tricky ,
so I sometimes find it hard to see my emotions as gifts from God.
More often than not, I try to deny what I am really feeling in an effort to avoid the pain of grief or loss, or the harsh truth that I am, indeed, feeling angry, jealous or profoundly upset.
At those times it is good for me to remember that Jesus wept at the loss of his friend, became angry in the face of injustice and was cast into dreadful agony over his coming passion.
When I can notice my reactions without judging them, I am on the road to becoming friends with myself, my human and imperfect self.
Fully felt and accepted, grief opens my heart to others in pain, and I can begin to approach life with a compassionate heart.
The anger I was once ashamed of can now be purified and transformed into a passionate thirst for justice, and my jealousy can lead to the discovery of buried dreams and hidden fears.
Lord, thank you for showing me what it means to live with my emotions and to let them help me to be fully alive and open to reality around me.

Jen,

After reading your response, and your new thread, I have 2 very serious questions for you:

Do you think that perhaps your husband is an alcoholic?

Are you possibly an alcoholic?

Am I an alcoholic? I can give a very certain "NO". I have cut back on my drinking A LOT. I had my first glass of wine in 2003 last week.

Prior to my A, my H and I got into an unfortunately very regular habit of going out "binge drinking" on the weekends with friends. He and OM were a particularly bad influence on each other (as BFs), as they consumed large amounts of beer together, and were almost competitive about who could drink more.

In the first few weeks after d-day, I drank a lot (more binge drinking while out with friends), "drowning" my sorrows. Then I sort of just stopped drinking almost all together. If I do drink any more, which isn't very often, I rarely have more than a couple of drinks. It's drinking that partly got me into so much trouble, so I don't really care to do that anymore. I don't want to be known as a drunk, and I don't like not feeling completely in control of myself anymore. (I used to think it was fun to feel out of control??)

My H sounds like he's drinking daily. I caught him sneaking a small flask of alcohol into my MIL's house in the morning early last week. He was drinking in the morning! He figures it's fine since it is over the upset of the loss of his dad. But I got him to confess that he's been drinking every day lately, at the very least a couple drinks before bed at night. So I do fear that maybe he is becoming an alcoholic. However, since I don't live with him 24/7, who knows how much of what he says is true, and how much of it is part of his "oh poor me, I have to drink because of all the pain YOU caused me" act (an attempt to continue to make me feel guilty). When I've tried to ask one of his female friends if his drinking has increased she said no, he just drinks as much as he always has. But, maybe the amount we were drinking last spring (getting drunk at least once a week) isn't healthy either.

So me an alcoholic? No. Him? Maybe. How can I be sure? Is there some list of characteristics? Some website? Some way to approach him about his drinking?

Jen

From AA's 44 Questions:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Most A.A.s will say that it's how you drink, not how often, that determines whether or not you are an alcoholic. Many problem drinkers can go weeks, months, and occasionally years between their bouts with liquor. During their periods of sobriety, they may not give alcohol a second thought. Without mental or emotional effort, they are able to take it or leave it alone, and they prefer to leave it alone.

Then, for some unaccountable reason, or for no reason at all, they go off on a first-class binge. They neglect job, family, and other civic and social responsibilities. The spree may last a single night, or it may be prolonged for days or weeks. When it is over, the drinker is usually weak and remorseful, determined never to let it happen again. But it does happen again.

This type of "periodic" drinking is baffling, not only to those around the drinker, but also to the person still drinking. He or she cannot understand why there should be so little interest in alcohol during the periods between binges, or so little control over it once the drinking starts.

The periodic drinker may or may not be an alcoholic. But if drinking has become unmanageable and if the periods between binges are becoming shorter, chances are the time has come to face up to the problem. If the person is ready to admit to being an alcoholic, then the first step has been taken toward the continuing sobriety enjoyed by thousands upon thousands of A.A.s.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

You can't approach him about his drinking, he has to seek help on his own.

The only thing you can do is look inside yourself and face up to your problems and deal with those.

jen brown...

Any more thoughts on how my H’s behaviour relates to co-dependency?

i don't know anything co-dependency, but i do have a thought...

i'm sorry for the loss of your father-in-law...

have you considered staying close to your husband through his mother... clearly you've re-established your relationship with her... she's new to being on her own and i'm sure she's lonely...

why don't you spend time with her... cook for her sometimes... find excuses to be in her company...

your husband will come around when he's ready... in the meantime cut back on trying to figure him out...

from one wife to another... i'm routing for you...

oaktown...

BrambleRose - Thanks for the AA info. I skimmed the website a bit too. It almost makes it sound like just about anyone who drinks to get drunk, ever, even if it's only now and again, and far and few between, is a potential alcoholic. I always had this image in my mind of an alcoholic being someone who HAD TO drink every day to get through the day. I guess I'll have to ponder this whole alcoholism stuff a little more.

Gee Oaktown....funny you should say that about staying close to my H through his mom. I tried calling my H yesterday, left a voicemail, got no response. So I called him on his cell phone tonight to ask him again if it would be okay if I went over to see his mom, since I haven't seen her since Sunday. (He is spending pretty much 24/7 with her again this week, and I agreed to give him his space, and let us return to him calling me, etc.) He told me not to come over (to his mom's) tonight, and pretty much told me to wait to go see my MIL until the weekend. He was very short on the phone too, not very friendly.

I have a funny feeling that after me being around so much all last week, spending HOURS every day with his mom, his family, and him, that maybe his mom is putting pressure on him about me. I'm not sure that's even what I want. I want him to want to be with me, because that's what he wants, not b/c it's what makes his mom happy. Crazy sounding maybe, but that's how I feel.

But...I love my MIL very much, and regardless of how my H intends to treat me, I don't think I should have to cut myself off from her. She may need all the family and friends she can get now that she's alone. I think I'll call her tomorrow night and see if she wants to go for lunch on Sat., or if she'd prefer it if I just dropped by. Make it between me and her, instead of asking my H for permission, and giving him all that power.

I just reread your post....maybe what I really need to do is take this advice of yours: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> your husband will come around when he's ready... in the meantime cut back on trying to figure him out... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wise words!

Jen