I've gotten some very good advice from the folks that post here. You know who you are and I thank you but now i have some more questions....

since my last post, i decided to start dating. (i know! against the advice i've gotten here, but i have to move on with MY life.)

WW caught wind of my decision to date and i've had several lengthy thlephone conversations and 2 lunches with her. it seems that she doesn't 'approve' of my decision to date. WTF? she's allowed to have an affair IN MY FACE, we are officially divorced and she doesn't APPROVE?

she says it's only a matter of time before this affair will be over, that she still loves me and thinks that 'maybe' things can be worked out between us. but, why havent *I* been calling *HER*, why havent*I* sent *HER* a card or *HER* flowers? *I* must not be interested in having her back since it seems to her that i don't care and i'm going to DATE!

i know what's going on here, i think. she's having financial difficulties, she lives in a hole, she has this pending DUI, she's paying OM's bills and her life SUCKS as she knows it. BUT, she still LOVES this guy.

she wants to keep me on a string just in case it doesnt work out (which she knows it won't).

why should i wait for her to have the affair until it ends? that wouldn't be coming back to me for the 'right' reasons. it would be coming back as a last resort.

why should i wait for her to financially ruin herself and then take her back? that wouldn't be coming back to me for the 'right' reasons. it would be coming back as a last resort.

suppose this A lasts 6 more months? am i supposed to wait that long before i start my new life? am i supposed to 'hang' in there and wait? just so she can come back for the 'wrong' reasons?

suppose it never ends? when do i start MY new life?

here's an email i got from her this afternoon after having lunch with her in her new "hole"..

so not to send S mixed messages I told him you wanted to see him and he did know that you asked us out for lunch. I have to say i feel like I am doing something wrong. So I have to be careful about this all! I am really confused about how I feel right now. I know this sounds crazy and I am sorry I love OM but I can't seem to just put us behind! WW

she feels like she's doing something wrong?! what about what she did to ME?! geez, she's being intimate with him and only talking to me, yet she feels like she's "doing something wrong"?!!

what a bunch of crap. now, i don't want to LB but dayum! i just told her today that in order for us to get back it has to start with her having NC with OM, period, THEN WE'LL TALK! she seemed receptive, but an hour after i leave i get THIS email?

any opinions on this? i'm tired of waiting around and wanting to start my new life. yes, i love her but i'm NOT going to wait for her to come back to me for the wrong reasons. i'm sick of it all.

just when i was starting to feel good about myself, i get shot down again.

back to the dating, when i started to feel good again.

Jack,

You are divorced right? Then you can date. Further since she is still with OM, she is technically cheating him with you, if you date her. You don't want to be part of this triangle.

Stop all communications, start your new life, and MOVE ON. Whether anything really happens with her or not remains to be seen. I think your assumption is right, she doesn't want to lose her money source.

I would simply caution you that you need to give it quite awhile before getting into a serious relationship even with your ExW.

MOVE ON, Jack. That is my advice.

God Bless,

JL

PS: It isn't your job to romance her. She has a very weird and strange outlook on life. Are you sure she is not into some very heavy drugs?

<small>[ February 11, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Move on...you are divorced. She is irrational. You are not supposed to wait for her. The only reason I would caution you concerning your dating is bringing some innocent bystander into the hysertia your exW adds to the mix. Ofcourse your exW will do whatever she wants but just be emotionally ready to pursue other relationships if that is what is good for you not as therapy to rid yourself of her.

best wishes

ayslyne

BTW your exW speaks fluent fog-ese...maybe she can parlay that skill to make some extra cash to support her loser boyfriend...maybe a psychic network gig or something.

<small>[ February 11, 2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

thanks guys!

your exW speaks fluent fog-ese

LMAO! no kidding!!

MOVE ON, Jack. That is my advice.

thanks, i think that's best for me too. appreciate the support.

i called her up about that email. i told her that i didn't appreciate it, that she thinks she's doing something wrong by talking to me now after what she did to me in december. she said that she's learning to be a better person. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

gimme a break!

i told her that i can be friends with her, i am over the anger, i can talk to her about S, i can talk to her about old times, and i can talk to her about family but i WILL NOT discuss anything to do with our future together as long as HE is still in the picture. i will NEVER discuss our future together, EVER, until she calls one day (whenever that is) and tells me it's completely over and she CONVINCES me that she will not ever see HIM again. THEN, i'll listen to HER plan on how we can patch things up and start a new R.

i told her that i was going to move on with MY life and that she held all the wild cards. it's all up to her.

what plan should i call this? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Plan A/B?

i'm getting over this a lot better than i thought i would.

thanks for the comments!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jack55:
<strong>
why should i wait for her to have the affair until it ends? that wouldn't be coming back to me for the 'right' reasons.

suppose this A lasts 6 more months? am i supposed to wait that long before i start my new life? am i supposed to 'hang' in there and wait?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jack,
You really DO move very fast, that's fer sure!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'd like to comment on the above statements made by you.

First of all, one of the things this place does for most of us is shows us where WE went wrong in our M's. None of us is perfect, that's a fact.

Your WW's A with this scuzz-bucket gold-digger is going to crash and burn, no doubt. HOWEVER, this is YOUR time. It's your time to figure out your own contribution to the state of your M that led your W to get herself entangled with someone else. It is your time to look inward (as much as that is possible with you MARS-types!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> It is your time to work on fixing YOU, your issues, making you the BEST "Jack55" you can be. Not only for your xW, but for yourself, and for any future R you might enter into.

After all, you wouldn't want to repeat any of this again in 5 or 10 years, would you? I believe the statistics on second M's being less successful than first M's is b/c spouses do not do the necessary work to fix what went wrong in the first place! In that case, as the saying goes, "If we forget the past, we are doomed to repeat it!" and we do.....

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> when do i start MY new life?

i'm tired of waiting around and wanting to start my new life.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This leads dirctly into my second point to you. WHEN do you start YOUR NEW LIFE?? When you have done the work. When you know you have fixed what your contribution to the break-down of your M is/was.

I wouldn't call this time "waiting around." First of all, TWO MONTHS?!?!?!?! You call that "waiting?" Hell, man, some of us have waited TWO YEARS or longer. I'm not saying you must or should do that. Just saying there might be more you could be doing to strengthen yourself during this "alone" time.

I still catch myself thinking or doing things that I KNOW aren't particularly "MB" oriented (now that I know better), and therefore means I still have a LOT of work to do to "fix" what makes me not such a good spouse for ANYONE yet.

I agree with the others here, she might be keeping you on a string. No one can tell you to hang on for that. It's just that a new relationship this early on in your "healing" process is probably not a wise move, or destined for failure in the long run. Are you prepared to go through that right now?

Take care, Jack. It's usually a lot longer ride than any of us care to go through.

Jack when it sounds like BS and smells like BS it is BS. That is what you are getting from your ex. Don't buy into her melodrama. Trust your commonsense and gut feelings. Telling you to wait for her while she continues to play house with her stud shows shows how much disrespect she has for you. "Maybe" you will get her back. "Maybe" she will reconcile with you. As a businessman you would loose your shirt if you did deals on whether someone was going to "maybe" buy from you. My advice to you is follow Plan B and do not answer emails, have talks or lunches with her. As a divorced man you have a right to move on and date.
If you play your cards right and "ignore" her and show that you are moving on happily with your life it will drive her nuts and wake her up to the consequences of her actions.

<small>[ February 11, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: tommaz ]</small>

Jack:

Lupolady's right on. And... ...well, people like JL are off a bit (JL will probably smack me upside the haid for this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ):

I can't remember, but didn't you say somewhere that you were M'd to your W for something like 20 years? And now you think you're "over her" in just 2 months? Sure, she hopped right on the fast track to DV. Sure, this A of hers is going to crash and burn so hard that all that may be left of her is a DEEP, smoking hole in the ground. But, if she does come out of this fog, can you truly say that you wouldn't think that your multi-decade history is worth trying to save? Absolutely?

Having said that, I think it's still pretty obvious that you don't need to be "jacked" around by her while she's in this pea green (maybe Linda Blair green?) fog of hers. You should consider plan Bing her, or at the very least plan A with very limited contact.

I think it's probably okay to date again, but be careful. Not so much for yourself, but really be careful what you might put some innocent gal through if either a) you reconcile with your xW, or b) your xW goes postal when she finds you're getting involved without her "approval." I don't know if she's likely to do the latter, though. You know her better than we do (but nobody knows her very well right now at all!).

Toodles,
-ol' Qfwfq

Q,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should consider plan Bing her, or at the very least plan A with very limited contact.

I think it's probably okay to date again, but be careful. Not so much for yourself, but really be careful what you might put some innocent gal through if either a) you reconcile with your xW, or b) your xW goes postal when she finds you're getting involved without her "approval." I don't know if she's likely to do the latter, though. You know her better than we do (but nobody knows her very well right now at all!). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't I say that?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I still think that since he is divorced it is Plan B time, and time to MOVE ON. If she catches up great. If not, too bad. I do think the suggestion to learn from this is a great one. It sort of is a minimum requirement.

As for her fluent "fogese" well. I sort of think her email to Jack should go into the "Notable Threads" section as a CLASSIC example of "fogese" or as WAT says: Alien Speak. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Frankly, he shouldn't be dating or talking to her or he is the OM in THEIR relationship. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> But it is true. And it must be true love as she gave up sooooo much for the OM. Of course she got a goodly settlement from Jack. I'm thinking Prenup if she does come back and convinces Jack to go around again on this one.

Sorry, I know she is fog bound. But, once divorced there is NO marriage to save. Yup, it was fast, too fast, BUT it is what it is. That that is OVER.

So the only thing left for Jack to do in my opinion is to LEARN from this and addressing his failings in the marriage is a really good thing.

No doubt the affair/relationship will end. But that doesn't mean she will want to come back or that Jack will want her back. She sold herself pretty cheap, but then most WS's do that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So Q no 2x4 from here. You are probably saying better things to Jack than I am tonight.

Hey! Has it stopped raining down your way? Apparently we are going to get it up here within a few hours.

Must go.

JL

JL:

Well, I guess you did and you didn't.

I think the point I was making here is that, because it was a long M, it doesn't matter so much that they are DV'd, because it happened so damned fast. That was stupid on her part, but jumping back into the dating scene, even if it doesn't involve some other gal's feelings, really sounds a bit like punishment to me. Is that justified? Probably. Is that "Christian?" I don't think so, but I'm an atheist! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Not that I'm suggesting that jack be the patient, compassionate BS that I've learned to be... ...except maybe I am! Or not. The point is, I think, that jack himself said that their M was wonderful, they built a dream house, and then her weakness allowed her to fall into this twit OM's arms.

well, crap. I'm rambling, and my point is gone... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

not much to add, except to say time for Plan B. I'm not sure about the dating part. It may be a bit too soon. Keep working on yourself, don't go out looking but be open to possibilities that may come your way. jmho

Be well.

growing up as a young man and learning sales, i was taught to "follow the plan" and was very successful doing so and learned to believe in 'the system', but now i'm going to go 'off-plan' (as what is recommended here). i'm going to use a combo of plan a and plan b.

i will follow plan a except for this deviation;

i will plan b her on......not talking about our future together. she WANTS to talk about our future (last resort for her?) but i'm not having any part of it. NO DISCUSSION ABOUT "US" UNTIL "HE" IS OUT OF THE PICTURE!

plan a on all the rest. i'll help her out, i'll have lunch or dinner with her, i'll be the friend she wants to have, i'll take her to dinner, i'll talk for hours on the phone, etc.

but, if she wants to talk our future, i won't, period!

and, i'm moving on with MY life. this is "killing" her and i know it.

she called back to express her dis-pleasure with me going out again. i told her that i didn't want to talk about it. when HE is completely out of the picture, i'll listen. until then, there's nothing to talk about.

this is thee closest i have gotten to her since D day. SHE'S JEALOUS! haha! what goes around, comes around (i didn't tell HER that though).

i'd like to be able to make a life for her and me again but i'm not going to wait around.

yes, she's now the exWW.

we were married for 14 years and together 15 years.

all was great, so i thought, until D day. i went thru 6 weeks of total misery. i'm back on my feet and as much as i'd like to save those 15 years of history, i'm not going to stand-by until she makes up HER mind to come back for the wrong reasons. she has to come back for the right reasons, or it's HER loss.

too strong?

that's how i feel.

thoughts?

one more thing....

she is actually MAD at ME. she was crying.

so, i told her this.....

tell OM that you are going to stay with ME for the next 5 days and not see him at all, and i won't go out with my date on saturday and sunday.

she didn't comply.

i gave her another "out" and she resisted.

have fun, darlin', 'cause i plan to, too.

she's trying to make ME feel guilty for doing something that isn't wrong at all.

i didn't date while i was married.

what am i missing here?

*I* should feel guilty???!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

ok, one more thing only. i promise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

anybody that reads this thread, please reply with your honest opinion because she's making ME think that *I* am the wrong one here.

i want to get all your opinions and then show her this thread.

it probably won't make any difference but if i get enough replies, i'll let her read it.

one thing i forgot.

she agreed to talk to SH next week after my date on saturday and sunday. whether or not she will, we'll have to wait and see.

thanks everybody!!

when do i start MY new life?
It should have started ths minute you found out about the affair/reading Marriage Builders and learning how you can improve relationships.

since my last post, i decided to start dating. (i know! against the advice i've gotten here, but i have to move on with MY life.)
What is the rush to date again? Why does "moving on" equal dating?

<small>[ February 11, 2003, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is the rush to date again?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">because i can? because i want to? because it makes me feel good? why not?

that's what SHE said. how long am i supposed to wait? what she did is unexceptable behavior. i thought i wouldn't wait AT ALL, NADA, NONE....you're outta here babeeeee. but, i DID wait, and i think 60 days is enough.

just my opinion but i DID try and i WOULD forgive her if she came back NOW, but i'm NOT waiting or giving her a ticket for an expensive "pleasure tour" at my expence.

that's how *I* feel.

Hi Jack. I guess I'll weigh in here, not that I have anything too different to say.

1) Your divorce went very very fast.
2) You were married a long time, and you have a kid together.
3) Fine. Go on a few dates. What is a date anyway? It can just mean going out with someone in a friendly way. But, I implore you, do not get involved with anyone just now. Firstly, because you are clearly on the rebound. Your heart is not over your XWW. Even if your brain thinks so. Aint possible. Just not enough time. So, be a gentleman and don't drag that innocent date into your drama. Be upfront that your emotions are encumbered at this time, that you are not ready for an involvement yet, that you want to be friends and have fun. Be honest! That way no one gets hurt. What is the rush? You are strong enough to be on your own for a while.
4)OK a little jealousy PROBABLY can't hurt. I wouldn't play up the dates and throw them in her face. Just be matter of fact- make it clear you'd prefer to be with her, but since her heart is taken by OM, you might as well keep busy.
5) I think your approach is pretty good. Let us know what Steve says.

chris,

thanks for your opinion. before i found this site i didnt think i could ever forgive her but i can now. but, i will not wait around for 1 year, 2 years, or even 6 months. i guess i'm giving her an ultimatum. i can live with HER decision. if i don't mean that much to her.....oh well.

i like to have a woman around for many reasons and there are women that would like to have me. i won't stand and be used.

ego? sobeit.

to exW,

$hit or get off the pot because i am.

espoir,

you have been following my saga since day 1 and know what's going on and you have me down pat. i guarantee that i will not be intimate until i KNOW it's all over. the LAST thing that *I* want to do is be unfaithful to my love because i know how much it hurts to be betrayed.

this is 'friendly' stuff i'm talking about as far as the dating goes.

Jack,

I guess my answer to your question about guilt for dating.

1. Are you married?

2. Are you engaged to anyone?

3. Are you dating her exclusively?

4. Have you any commitments?

If the answer to all of those questions are NO, then I think she is wrong in assigning guilt to you.

She had her chance. She was married for 14 years and threw it all over for an OM. Now she wants you to honor something that doesn't exist: a vow of commitment.

I do think that if you have any ideas of getting back with her, you would do well to NOT start a new relationship. I agree you are on the rebound. I agree you should slow down. But, as for dating, yes you have the right.

While I have a great deal of sympathy for WS's, and yes even FWS who are trying to get their marriages back, I still feel that once the marriage is over it is over as far as commitment is concerned. She has none to you.

I do hope that you find it in your heart to take her back IF she finally decides SHE is the one that made this mess. So far it seems to be mainly YOUR fault. Still fogbound and therefore there really is no discussing this with her.

I think you are right to treat her well as in a plan A. I think you are right to draw the line at not talking about relationships. Personally, I would go to a strict plan B myself. Let her deal with OM without any input from you. She has a nice settlement from the marriage. She is apparently still doing drugs, and surely abusing alcohol. You cannot save her from these things. She has to.

Until all of that PLUS the OM goes away, I would stay far away from her.

I know I sound like a harda$$ about this,but I take marriage very seriously and because I do I take the absence of marriage very seriously. Does that make sense?

God Bless,

JL

Jack hello,

I've been following your story and think you are doing very well. I'd just like to add my weight to what others are saying here.

Your PlanA/B cocktail sounds fine but please stick to it. In the phone call when you say to her "tell OM you are coming to stay with me for 5 days and I'll cancel my dates" is R talk. It is negotiating. I think you should assume the leadership you have achieved in this situation.

I think you need to move the boundaries with your xww a little. You should talk about your son,
but not about your history or family and certainly not about your plans or hers.
You should on no account give money to her other than what the divorce laid down. If your son needs money pay the bills directly.

Otherwise your exww will easily be able to twist the conversation round to R topics and this is too hot a subject for you to keep your cool.

I would not "be friends" I would aim for being a very cool "co-parent".

Just my point of view. Best wishes.

Anecdote: I have 2 sons with my exw. I have met her once only in the 20 years since the divorce at the hospital where my our first son was taken after a serious accident. She wrote me one letter after my mother died and I wrote her one on the death of her father. Otherwise no contact.

<small>[ February 12, 2003, 01:46 AM: Message edited by: olderandwiser ]</small>