I am at the end of my tether.H and I got back 5 dasy ago from my mother's funeral-i had been there for a month prior to that helping nurse her as she was dying.I had had a D day(my 3rd or 4th, not sure) the day before my Dad called to tell me to come home ASAP. H and I had talked,he had agreed to send NC letter and promised to be good.
We had a few nice days together in the sun before we came home to our kids.
Valentine's day, no flowers or card-normal for him so I didn't stress too much. In the evening I tried to call him at 7pm ish-engaged for about 20mins. I left 2 messages.
I got in my head it was her-who elsewould be still around 7pm Friday night Valentine's day? He denied it. I LB'd big time and later as we went to bed I told him I'd had enough. He denied it was her,said he hadn't spoken to her for weeks,didn't know where she was. next day I asked him if he was going to go se her for the weekend-again, no.
last night we went to bed together, nothing said. In the night we were intimate-and I aske him if he loved me, he said always had, always will....
Today I heard a cellphone ringing.... tracked it down, it was his, on it her mobile number phoned hime yesterday lunchtime, and a new number, her new number, 7pm Friday.
So it goes on. He said she had phoned him Valentine's for a chat. PLEASE!And that he had tried to phone her yesterday pm and she had tried to call him back because he thought it was finished with us. I had not actually told him to leave, said he could stay married and see her...obviously upset,bereaved,he didn't need much to phone her.
So MBers it seems unlikely given that she had a NC letter from him 6 weeks ago that she would phone for a friendly chat on V's day unless still ongoing.
I don't know what to do.I don't want him to leave me but I can't go on like this. He told me I am always miserable, always unhappy, he thinks it must be him, he can't make me happy and I should look for someone who can....still won't got to MC, still can't see anything wrong in our M other than me being unhappy,says he is the same and has always been the way he is.
Please help,I am in despair.

Deluded

Dear Deluded,

I'm sorry you are going through this Hell - I am sorry to hear about your mother, too - I knew that you were there - I sometimes lurk on your thread - I am in the UK, and I post to Lisa in London sometimes. By the way, Lisa is on holiday until next week, if you wonder why she doesn't reply to you - I know she would if she was here.

I do really feel for you - my own first d-day came the day after I came home from my brother's funeral in the States - I had no idea my H was definitely emotionally involved with someone else. I still have not been able to properly grieve for my brother. So I have some understanding of what you might be going through.

I am sorry to say it does sound to me like your H is still having his cake and eating it too, without any regard for your feelings, especially at this time. I thought the NC letter was supposed to be drafted by the WS, and SENT by the BS - if this did not happen, you only have his word for it that he sent a NC letter, and it doesn't sound like he has a proven track record of being true to his word to put it mildly.
However, to give him 1% benefit of the doubt, if he told her it was over, VD WOULD be the day she would contact him to try to initiate renewed contact.

I would say that given his obvious inconsistencies, and his apparent disregard for your feelings especially at this sad time for you, and his unwillingness to take any responsibility for his part in causing the sadness you are feeling (you're miserable and always have been - BTW, this is my H's justification for his behaviour as well) that it is time for plan B. I hate to say that, but its what I think. I hope this doesn't sound too blunt. You can't see my face - believe me, I am feeling for you.

I have to go now - but will try to check back this evening. Hang in there!

LIR

Dear LIR and others,
Thanks LIR,I follow your threads too, thanks for replying.
I both read and posted the NC letter on the day i left to go to see Mum. He wrote a lovely short letter with no unput from me.
i don't know what to do but think the fact he is still blaming me for the A and his unhappiness must mean that even if he hasn't talked muchto her he is still emotionally attached and therefore in the A still? I would love to believe that OW just phoned him out of the blue but his phone was engaged for at least 15 mins.And she phoned him again yesterday pm.
The problem is he still says he won't leave, promises me the affair is over/will end and the situation goes on. I am starting to lose respect for myself at putting up with it but am so fearful that my cowardly H will not have the courage to ask to come home, or worse that he will decide he really is better off without me. Believe it or not I do still love him-but it seems we are no further on than on D day #1 back in May 02.
Do I ask him to leave and then Plan B. What if he is telling the truth and there has been no contact until V's day.? Would it help if I ask him to write her another NC letter?
Help please,anyone?

<small>[ February 16, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Deluded of Devon ]</small>

Dear Deluded -

I am back - yes, it seems to me that you have a lot of positive signs here - now I realize you both handled the NC letter in the proper way - I am not sure whether he was in Australia with you during this month, or whether he was here at home alone. I think if he was here alone, the NC letter doesn't mean much, since he could easily have been seeing her here while you were gone.

If he was with you in Australia, then do you know how it was that she knew he was back home? As I said again, I think VD would be the day she would try to initiate contact - to test. If that is what happened, her testing has obviously produced a positive result for her - renewed and ongoing contact (at least by phone). This has to stop if you are to have a chance at recovery. To stop it, he could put a block on her number on his cellphone, and he could give you his cellphone so that you can monitor his calls. He should also give you his e-mail passwords, and/or agree to putting surveillance software on the computer.

Is there any chance of him committing to MC? He seems to be giving you a lot of mixed signals - refusing to leave, saying he wants the marriage, but continuing to shift the blame of the affair to you. I find myself in this situation as well, in some respects. I had post-natal illness twice. My H says that my depression "drags him down" - he has always brought up my depression as the factor which has made him feel unhappy in our R. At first, I bought this. And every time we have had a R talk, I have been careful to acknowledge that he feels this way - I have told him that I am glad he is honest, even if it is painful to hear. However, clinical depression is not something I have suffered from for at least the past 4 years, and even the two bouts of PND were mild in comparison - I was never hospitalized, I continued to care for my family 24/7, my doctor did not see the need for counselling. I look back and think a lot of it was the stress of taking care of 2 small kids with no family around, and my H with an extremely heavy schedule, and lets face it, emotional problems of his own which made being there for me when I was stressed-out pretty near impossible for him. Basically, when I needed him, he cut out on me emotionally. Now he is blaming me for being so "not perfect" that he had to cut out on me. See what I mean? He says "a lot of other men would have left you". I now say "a lot of other men would have shown me kindness and compassion and supported the wife who gave them two beautiful children". People have said to me over and over that the proof is in the pudding. I took care of my boys 24/7 for 9 years - if I was so screwed up, how come they are such great kids? So I don't accept this - "my EA's are your fault because you are such a depressive". His EAs are his fault because HE is unhappy with himself and looking for something outside himself to make him happy. I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I'm sharing this because I have had to deal emotionally with this shifting of responsibility. I don't buy it and I don't think you should either. Yes, we all contribute in some way to our spouse's feelings of well-being, or conversely, their unhappiness. But we are not 100% responsible for their choices when they decide to dishonestly go off the rails.

I'm not sure what you should do now as to plan B.. I think maybe it would help to ask yourself what it is about him that you value that you are willing to keep living with this in the hopes that things will change. I think things won't change as long as he blames you. I do think you deserve a better explanation for these telephone conversations than the ones he has given. And if he were serious about going on with and healing his marriage, he would need to be willing to be accountable for himself, and put himself in a position where he COULD NOT lie to you without you finding out.

Don't know if this is any help, but wanted you to know I am listening. I wont be able to check back again tonight after 8pm, so will have to check up tomorrow. Hang in there!

I don't think a second no-contact letter would be helpful - blocking her number and giving you his cellphone would be a step in the right direction, though.

LIR

Deluded,
I'm so sorry again about how everything has been going in your life.

I know that many others here know far more than I do about MB principles. But as a former WS whose now divorced, here is my take.

I would insist that he write another NC letter, and that you mail it.

I would also perhaps consider that he not have a cellphone, if that's possible. He may need it due to his profession, don't know here. You know, if my exH would consider forgiving me and taking me back, I would do ANYTHING to prove my love for him, to him. (I don't have a cellphone anymore, and my point is only that a cellphone makes a person much more available--btw OM NEVER called my cellphone) You are willing to forgive your husband, he's still with you- to me that is a huge step right there .

Perhaps it is true, perhaps OW called him only on Valentine's Day and that previous to that they hadn't spoken for months. IT was a setback, the fact that he did engage her in conversation and that he returned her call--but it doesn't mean it's the end for you, either. I would simply rationally state to him that he needs to write another NC letter, and that you mail it. He should also add in the letter that it was a mistake to talk to her at all on V-Day.

I'm trying to look at this from the perspective of the OW and WS. I have had no desire to call OM in months and months now. However, each situation is very different. I've hit rock bottom and seen what I've lost as far as family is concerned. Your husband hasn't reached that point. HE hasn't had to, has he? You've been there for him. Even WITHOUT the OM for 7 months now, my exH still doesn't want anything to do with me. So, you see--it's such a different situation.

You mentioned that perhaps he's still emotionally attached and that he's still in the affair. The only way to stop the emotional attachment is by NC at all, and I know you know that. He simply HAS to see the damage he's doing, to stop what he's doing. I didn't see it until it was far too late.

As a former WS whose now alone and very sad about it, I'd so like to 'shake' your husband into some sense about all of this. I can't do that, I know, but I just wanted to let you know how much I feel for your situation.

One other thought, maybe the person I cheated with is unique, but he hasn't called me at all in six months now. The last two times he called in early August, I hung up on him very rudely- with the words, "I told you not to call. Please respect my wishes and don't ever call here again. Respect me, please." It kind of galls me to know that your husband isn't saying that, and you are willing to forgive him. Does he know how lucky he is? If your husband would agree to do this a few times, if she WERE to call again--I bet all calls would stop, forever.

Hope I've helped somewhat,
H_P

Dear LIR and H_P,
thanks so much for your replies. I am so sorry for both your situations.
LIR I have been following your threads but hadn't realised about the postnatal depression-I had that too after each baby, compounded after no 2 by being completely alone in London,I knew no-one at all apart from H who was working v long hours in a critical year for his career. He told me recently he knew I was depressed but didn't think it was bad enough to need treatment. I have been comforted today by reminding himself that actually I am not all bad, that people do like me, my work colleagues actively sought me to join them, I have many loyal friends, most of whom do not know about the A at all....etc.
But still I do not know what to do.
Yes H_P he is still here with me but the way he talks this evening he sounds as if he cannot see a way forward and of course whether or not contact was ongoing whilst I was in Australia-he was by himself with our children for a month-contact has resumed and OW had a positive outcome. Contact has resumed. It took a lot to get him to agree to another NC letter-If contact never stopped then how meaningful is it? I have told him again this evening he has to choose and can't have both of us.
If I don't ask him to leave now I think I will need to tell him next time,he goes automatically.
I have thought about our relationship and I do love, admire and would cherish him but need to feel he returns the feeling. He told me again this evening he does love me. I think he is in the fog but I am sure he is miserable and blaming it on me.
OW apparently didn't know he was in Australia.
What should I do?

Deluded

Hello Deluded!
Looks like we're exactly on the same spot... after having foolishly believed the story of NC of my WW, discovered last friday that they are still in contact :-( WW says that they weren't for weeks, and that she just called him this one time.... whatever whatever.
And then, to top it all, England loses against OZ in FOOTBALL would you believe it.
OK, here's what I'm going to do, maybe you can think of something similar? Now, for me, unless a miracle happens, it's plan B. I have scheduled a phone call with S Harley for wednesday to talk through my decision and get some feedback. the only thing I'm not buttoned down yet are the logistics - me moving out or not. if not, how can I plan B, if she's around. That's the question, but not an unsolvable one, and surely Steve H will have good suggestions. I have been degraded, cheated, etc for something like 11 months now, I just can't anymore.
N

Deluded:

It sounds like he's playing you both. He gets to have his cake and eat it, too.

Have you read Surviving an Affair? If you haven't, please do. Dr. Harley explains how affairs start, and some of the motives why a WS who has returned home or stayed hom will continue with the A, if possible. It's an addiction.

Your H is a selfish, dishonest person, and your response gives him the best of both worlds, while he only has to be half a man with either of you. He has his stability, and permission to still go get his "fix."

If you don't put a stop to it, why should he? He won't even see it as a problem the way your reacting to it. It seems you understand how to employ Plan A, but not when to employ it! Why should he commit to you, if you're letting him see her? Basically, you've got an open marriage! He's not going to give that up willingly! So Plan B him and kick him out!

It is critical that we MBers actually read the Harley books, aside from merely participating on these discussion forums! While it is important to receive the support and vent our feelings, employing the plans incorrectly merely prolongs the pain. This website is designed to support the books, not replace them.

You CANNOT work on your marriage if the affair is underway!

Plan A is not designed to win him back, it's designed to implement a separation from the OP! If he doesn't agree to NC, go to Plan B! Kick him out! He'll try to bargain not to leave, since he probably doesn't really want to live with the OW, but he'll maintain contact with her for as long as you let him.

Good luck and God Bless!

{{{Shelagh}}}

Thanks everyone. So it seems |I have Plan A'd too long and need to stop enabling his affair-I realised today that it's not even his reality-that's here with me and our kids and she-mainly phone and email contact and occasional trysts in hotels at meetings,as she lives 200miles away-is compartmentalised. I think its going to give him a hell of a shock when he has to confront his actions and everyone knows. And I hope the shock of it doesn't make him hate me and run forever.

so now I have a question-what do I say whenI ask him to leave? And when do I send the Plan B letter?

thanks for reading,
Deluded

Devon

Your situation seems to have eerily paralleled mine. My WH also has failed to resist contact with OW - he said he needed to 'resolve' their affair. In mid-January, when I suddenly had enough of his resolving process, I surprised myself by asking him to leave. He was stunned. He moved out for one night, then came back, slept in the spare room, and spent a week looking for a flat. I think he expected me to give in, but I really had had enough; I just wanted peace and a chance to be my own person. After a week, there was a crisis of sorts, and he made important promises to get help for various things, including his SA problem. So I agreed to have him back, on the understanding that OW was no longer any part our future.

His whole attitude was changed by this; during his week of 'exile', he had no desire whatever to contact OW. It was a kind of acid test for us both. He made no contact after this, and clearly didn't want to hear from her again. There was, however, no NC demand. He has resisted this from the start; he feels that it is a waste of time unless he really means it, and he's never been sure that he really meant it.

OW won't give up. She has phoned endlessly, pestering him. She wants access to him at all times. For the first time, H has shown irritation at this, and has also demonstrated some resolution, telling her that she is causing distress to me, and that this can't go on. He has set specific times for their contact, and told her that this is a process of saying goodbye. He SEEMS to be working up to a definitive NC request, but it hasn't yet been made.

I do think that his attitude has changed since the kick-out week; before that, he hadn't REALLY believed that I would give up on him, and he was then forced to confront the prospect of losing me. When it came to it, he didn't want to live with OW, and I think that surprised him.

So where now? He's still in contact with her. Despite stating firmly that he wants to put all this behind him, he will still be on the phone to her tomorrow morning by arrangement, and probably tomorrow afternoon (boy, can she talk!) So I've set a target date in July, one year ater d-day. By then, if he hasn't established TO MY SATISFACTION at least his side of NC (and I can't control OW), then the M is over. I've told him this consistently, and I mean it. I think he will take it to the wire. I only hope I can grit my teeth for those months; in January, I faced the prospect of being on my own, and realised I could cope. I am not prepared to stay with a man who thinks he owes allegiance to a woman who cheated on her own H, and who has shown no consideration for my H or his family.

Do you think that it would be good for your H to lose the comfortable half-and-half existence that he has now? At 200 miles away, OW is a romantic attraction, with no opportunity to LB him or get on his nerves. Also, he is probably holding her off by claiming that he can't leave you and the children. Perhaps if you let him off the leash, give him his freedom - so that he can't use his comfy excuse with OW - he may be forced to confront the consequences? He may seize the opportunity and go (and I realise the anguish that this prospect must cause you), but that's the extreme end of the consequences range. Once he is no longer under any pressure to stay, once he is forced to contemplate a permanent life with OW, it may not seem so attractive.

I'm not sure NC is really worth anything, unless WS means it, so I wouldn't pin too much hope on it.

Deluded:
I can really understand your situation with the OW 200 miles away. In my case the OW is 7 hours away. I'm in plan A, although things are changing soon as my H is moving 2 hours from me for a new job. We are telling people that I'm not moving because we still have our house to sell, and I'm about 7 months along in my pregnancy.

I think the distance is what has kept his A going...it's always been the romantic hotel weekends once a month or so. And besides that email and phone calls every day. So I'm not really going to plan B, but he will be moving and have a chance to experience life without me which will hopeful make him wake out of the fog a bit.

I almost think I'm to a point where I need a change like this to shake things up. And maybe that's what you need as well....Plan B to make something happen, just be prepared that it may not be what you want.

How long have you been in Plan A? I think you will know when plan B is right for you. I have never gotten to that point yet, but I think each person knows when it's time. If you are to the point where you just can't take it anymore and want something to happen, then plan B is probably right for you.

Thanks everyone.
Last night H kissed me goodnight spontaneously and gave me a hug ,and told me that he had not spoken to OW that day but had sent her an email saying not to contact him at all. I said nothing.I did not start this conversation. He knew I had been in email and phone contact with friends and asked which friends(I didn't say specifically),and then what had they all said. I told him everyone thinks I should ask him to leave.
I have not yet asked him to leave but he must know I am considering it.

Could there be any hope? I am mindful that if he is not with me,it is harder to rebuild. But so far we haven't rebuilt. I am so confused about everything!
And this morning he said he might not go to his evening dinner meeting but come home instead.
This is the same man who 2 days ago told me he couldn't make me happy,had given up,and didn't he deserve to find happiness as he was unhappy too?

Deluded

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: Deluded of Devon ]</small>

bump^^^

bizarre... isnt it. one day like this, the other day like that. I don't really know what to suggest - I don't know what to do in my situation neither. But in my mind I sort of have come to the point where I can't take it anymore being let down- I guess that's a sign that I'm ready for plan B. Maybe one way for you to think about is: if you believed him now, if now he would really try a recovery.... what would you do if say 3 months down the line you found out he has been at it again...?
Regards from sunny London, N

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Hi Deluded,

so sorry that the uncertainty is still ongoing for you and to hear about your Mum. I know how hward it is to take all of these things at once - my father died whilst my W was on holiday with OM and D-day was at funeral...

I don't have many suggestions except to echo what Nick has said: consider how you would feel. Can you go on in Plan A or are you all loved out? Perhaps even sit down and talk to your WH about your thoughts - that you want to work on M but unless he is willing to then you may have to ask him to leave (Plan B) to protect your love for him and to leave the door open should he change his mind.

HTH - stay strong.
bowd

Hi Nick, Bowd, anyone who is reading.

Well things have gone from bad to worse. I told my H's brother 2 nights ago what was going on. Yes it was a blatant plea for support from him but I get on well with him,have supported him through his divorce and through his concerns for his very young son who lives with his ex wife who has borderline Obsessive Compulsive Disorder but won't seek treatment. Anyway he was very supportive and I felt better. He the obviously spoke to his parents-who already knew but not of the latest D day.
H's Mum phoned me yesterday and asked how I was as she had spoken to her other son. So I told her what was happening. Basically I told her the truth. Yes it was my version but I did not at any stage bad mouth H just told her his actions and inactions and that I am at the end of my tether, badly want to save my marriage, still love my H very much, but feel I cannot do anything else .She was very upset but v supportive. She then tried to contact H to speak to him.He obviously was concerned and asked me what it was about so I told him it was probably about us. He became angry, and hung up, then when he eventually came home I got the silent treatment until much later in the evening when I asked him if he was calmer. He was very angry, told me I was selfish upsetting his parents, why was it ok to protect my parents and not his, why did anyone need to know etc. I know, I know, typical WS talk.But it still hurt. Guess I'm still PE#1. I lost my cool and told him he couldn't see the sheer misery of our situation, that he couldn't see what he was about to lose, that I was considering separation because things hadn't moved on at all in the 9 months since the first D Day, that I was so hurt that he had promised me love and fidelity when we married and broken both those promises. He said he was disappointed in me and I told him how disapointed I am that he is not the man of morals and honesty and integrity that I thought he was. I asked him could he not see my misery,how much weight I had lost,that I had developed a tremor, that I can't sleep well...?
I finaly said he had better sleep in the spare room that night. He said yes,and I'll sleep somewhere else tomorrow night...I said yes, why don't you?
I went up to have a bath and sat there crying, he came in to get his toothbrush and looked as if he had been crying too, but said nothing.
This morning he brought me a cup of tea....and then went to work without breakfast or saying hello to the girls or goodbye to any of us.I thought he had left but his toiletries are still here.
Bowd and Nick I have asked myself if I can continue Plan A-my heart is willing to try , but my head says no-because nothing would change. I need him to show true remorse, want to look at his side of things. During all of that last night I asked him if he wanted to be married to me,and he said yes. Not,as I expected" not if you carry on like this", just a simple yes.
And since the first D day our intimacy has been wonderful. He even sometimes shows me spontaneous affection,not purely related to sex.
But he also shouted last night that by telling his mother I had f***ed everything up.

I can't understand him, I get so many mixed messages. I feel I don't really have his heart,OW does, but surely he has some affection for me.

Are men and women different? Nick's wife withholds any physical intimacy,whereas my H and I have had a wonderful physical relationship since D day. OW lives a long way away and I am sure he doesn't see her often. Even if its more than I think it can't be even every fortnight. Is he just using me as a substitute for her? Or is it a sign that there is still something there?

Thoughts, wise words,anyone?

Deluded <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Bump-really could do with some thoughts here please!

I guess it really is up to you and how much more you can take doing plan A. I tend to try and look at the positives such as you asking him if he still wanted to be married and he saying yes.
I would love to hear that from my H right now.

I think there is still something there or he wouldn't be staying with you. The question is can you wait it out while the affair is still going on.

I've read that the problem with the long distance Affairs is that the novelty takes a long time to wear off since they don't see each other that often. You don't get to that reality stage as quickly as if the OP was more accessible. I'm hoping in my case with my H moving away a couple hours and being able to talk to OW in evenings and see her more often on weekends that reality will set in. Also that he will realize he misses me.

I know I am not to the point of giving up hope and am pretty much just trying to pray and get by day to day. If it's meant to be, it's meant to be and so I'm going to sit back as long as I can and just see what happens as far as my marriage goes. As for my life, I'm spending more time with friends, doing stuff, getting out, getting ready for the baby, etc. So I don't think I'm really waiting, but am open to whatever comes of this whole thing.

My counselor says that it's the thoughts that you have that give you the feelings you have...so if in your heart you are feeling that you can continue in plan A, that could be coming from some thoughts in your head.

I also think you need to be careful about trying to get support from his family. It can only make him defensive as it appears did happen. From reading here, the affair has to die a natural death, and others getting involved may only push him away further.

I know it's tough, butmy initial reaction is if he does want to stay married, for you to stay in plan A.

Deluded,

Sorry I've been offline for a couple of days. Just a quick one. IMVHO your WHs anger shows that he at least cares in some way about you and your M, as does many of his other actions. However that does not excuse his ongoing deceit.

If at all possible I would humbly suggest you sit down and apologise for having told his family but that you are at the end of your tether. That you love him very much and want to work on your M but that for that to succeed it takes two. That if he wants to work on the M and stay Md he needs to show you in all ways and to work on why he feels the need to be in contact with OW.

I know that apolgising when you are not in the "wrong" seems bizarre but remember he sees things from a different angle and at the end of the day: do you want to be right or do you want to be married?

Your H is incredibly lucky that after all he has put you through and all that has been happening in your life as well you are still there fighting for your M. He needs to realise this but unfortunately you can't make him realise this.

But only you know how much longer you can last on the rollercoaster - trust your instincts - you seem pretty strong to me.

Sorry this is disjointed and hang on in there.

bowd