Way to keep your distance Jen. What your going through is above and beyond anything I could stand. You know you have to go to a pure plan B and stick with it because he's going to keep this behavior up as long as you let him. I know how hard it is to do this but you never know what could happen. Look at me. I had no idea my WW was thinking the things she was until I gave her that letter and then found she'd been thinking that way for quite a while. Sometimes there scared and hurt and need a push to get them to be honest. At least you would learn one way or the other and get out of this torture. Good Luck to you. You are a good person and deserve better no matter the mistakes you made. We've all made lots of big ones.

Jen, on the subject of divorce, you should know that you don't have to wait until the one year of separation is over before you can file. You can file today, if you want to. However, the divorce cannot be FINALIZED until that one year mark is hit. (I should know... I've already filed! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , and the separation won't be at one full year until November 24, 2003!).

I find it strange, that after all of your 'epiphanies' (?), that you still felt that you needed to ask your H about YOUR mail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> IMO, that's proof of his controlling behaviour, and the way you've succombed to it for so long. You should just change your address information. Just do it! (as nike points out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Then, when you get to doing the plan B letter, you can state the facts. That fact being, "I have changed all of my mail to come to my home address". Short and sweet.

Now... as far as your H's comment to you about not wanting to be married to anyone. Wow! I'm truly amazed at his total honesty.. for a change! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Finally, he's said some words that his actions have been speaking volumes of! Once it sinks it for you more, yes, it will hurt. But it's the reality of your situation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . And it's also a GOOD thing, b/c those words might end up being the saving grace for you, and keep you from going on with a plan A that you don't have in you right now.

And finally, as far as your H's family goes... how wonderful that they want to stand by you! THAT is true support. Hopefully, they are there for your H as well. The last thing anyone needs is for the family to be taking sides here. Dress sharp, and stand tall at the dinner today. It's a celebration of life! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And btw... today is my twins' birthdays too!! They're TWO!!! AUGHHH!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Karen

Jen,

Huge Huge Huge bonus points for not answering the phone....good job....excellant change from call after call that just turns in to a power struggle...and way to protect yourself...
And it is also a good sign that if he is calling you he is probably home alone...no friend over...let him stew alone a little...

good girl Jen.
ARK

starman - I hear you about maybe they need a push to wake up and get honest about things. It's the sticking to plan B that will be tricky. I'll need to get that letter to him to strengthen my resolve.

You know what Topie, it's the martyr in me that is putting off filing for Dv. I would just rather he had it on his conscience for the rest of his life that he filed for Dv. That and I have sort of told myself for a long time now that I'll give him unti the 1 year mark to make up his mind, then I'll be on my way. I can handle waiting unti June.

I guess I asked him about the mail b/c I wanted to gently see if he had the nerve to tell me to change the addresses. If not, it's like him trying to keep a door open too. It's not like I would change the address if he told me to, or won't if he didn't tell me to. But you're right, I should just change them all. It's just a few phonecalls.

Happy birthday to your twins Topie! Here come the TERRIFIC TWOS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> lol

Oh, ark, I need to confess....about an hour or so later, he called again, and I answered on like the last ring. We had a very brief chat, he just wanted to know if I had gone to visit his grandparents and if I was coming to dinner today. I said yes. He said he was going to bed then. I said have a good sleep. We both said goodnight. Oddly enough, he was very civil and not at all hurtful, and never made any dirty requests about sex either. A little part of me answered b/c then I win - he DID call me again, even though he said he never would. I know, I just shouldn't have answered, period. I'm thankful for how calmly the brief chat went.

You know, when I'm with his family, I try to put on a bit of a quiet and somewhat sad, reserved demeanor, and try not to laugh too much, etc. I feel like it's how I ought to behave given my situation. If I look too happy, then I don't get any sympathy, right? If I look too sad, then they won't remember the happy, joyful Jen they all knew and loved.

Jen

Bad Jen, Bad bad bad Jen...
:0 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ark

Hi Jen,

So are you planning a Plan B or setting up papers?

I know it is so hard Jen. I just wanted to let you know I was thinking of you. You and your husband are in so much turmoil. He just seems to sink deeper. Who knows what will bring on his moment of clarity. I know with what you struggle. My husband drove me crazy with terrible treatment and I would tell myself...that is it. The end. But then lonliness...and memories...and the intense love we shared would creep into my mind and my resolve would melt. I was so worn down by the rollercoaster I almost couldnt function. I dont want to see things get that way for you. I dont think they will...you are very strong, although you may question that...it is true. I worry when you waver, yet I know the innerangst so well. No judgements...just prayers for peace.

ayslyne

I am NOT filing Dv papers. I have no desire to do so, at all. Sorry folks, that ain't in my plan at this point. The soonest I'd do that is in June. I've always had that in the back of my mind as the amount of time I'd give him to decide what he wants.

I haven't gone to plan B yet either.

I saw him Mon. night at a family birthday dinner for his grandmother. He invited me to come over for a visit after. A fair amount of quiet and intelligent conversation was had. No breakthroughs, but he was being open and honest about his feelings about a lot of things to do with his dad's death, and I was being a good listener. I told him he was right, I loved the old him, not the current one, b/c the current one was too hurtful too often. He seems to be realizing that he can't be that way or I won't want to be with him. He hasn't overtly said so, but I know I've made some of my points clear, so clear, that when we get onto some topics, he knows what I am going to say before I say it. (So he has been listening.)

I still have very little optimism. I know I may need to go into plan B. I figure the next time (if there's a next time) that he talks to me in a cruel and hurtful manner, then I'll tell him "treat me well, or you won't get to see me at all" and then go to plan B.

"But then lonliness...and memories...and the intense love we shared would creep into my mind and my resolve would melt. I was so worn down by the rollercoaster I almost couldnt function. I dont want to see things get that way for you."

I'm so busy, that loneliness doesn't really have a chance to creep in. I have been spending lots of time with friends and family, and work keeps me busy too. But you're right, the memories and the intense love we once shared, combined with him being an open and honest, reasonable human being all destroys my "plan B resolve". I'm not so worn down I can't function. I'm surviving.

I'm acutely aware of my H's skill at emotional abuse and control, his alcoholism, his possible sexual addiction (porn), and his general feelings of entitlement. I know he didn't meet all of my needs, I know I didn't meet all of his and that's why we're in this mess. I know that if we're going to get back together, MC must be part of the plan, or we won't have much hope for real recovery. Old patterns will re-emerge.

Please don't bash me b/c I'm not willing to dive headlong into plan B. This is my life, and I have to do what feels right to me, the one who's actually living in this situation.

He's not a monster, he's a very distraught man, struggling with a great deal. This doesn't mean he gets a license to treat me like crap, that's certain, but it does mean I'll be giving him a little more patience than some of you here would have me give him.

Jen

Wow Jen,

I see progress here!!! I am proud of both of you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Orchid - Thanks. However, I'd say I see where we are this week as stationary and not backsliding as opposed to real progress. The real test comes with my birthday next Thursday. Will he be willing to come out for dinner with me and my parents as per usual? (My parents plan to phone and invite him.) Will he do anything for my bday (gift, card, anything)? Will he be willing to come out for dinner and a night out with me and my friends (I included him in my email invite to them)? Or will he use my bday as another chance to punish me and prove to me that we're not a couple anymore?

You see, he'll feel justified in ruining my 30th bday b/c the first time I slept with OM (his BF) was the day after my H's 30th bday last spring, after a night out drinking and dancing at the bar. So I ruined his bday. He says he's never celebrating his bday again. He and his girlfriends were trying to decide on a new bday for him, since his old one is too painful. Blah, blah, blah.

Sorry, I just am expecting a lot of pain very soon, and have trouble seeing anything as progress. I guess if I keep my expectations low, I may not be as disappointed hopefully.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen,

I have been reading over your last posts from the last couple of months.

How many flings have you had with other men through out your marriage? I only know of the 2 times with the his BF.

Also, what state was your marriage in comparison to now?

Did he act lovingly to you then or was he manipulative, degrading, childish, abusive(emotionally), withdrawn? Did he also have his "girldfriends" then and what was his take on them then versus now?

Jen, how would I answer that ? Here it is!
I would tell him I've looked at the past and it isn't pretty. That both of your behavior is appalling and not representative of the kind of marriage you want.
Yes, you made terrible mistakes, but you are willing to learn from that and change your life.
As for not promising faithfulness, I'd tell him it's part of the commitment now. That you are commited to being faithful, repentance and forgiveness from God and you would like it from him.
But there is no way to build a real loving marriage with other people in it. It destroys and has already.
The statement he will sleep with whomever he wishes, whenever he wishes is same my H gave me. MY FWH!
I agreed he can do as he wishes, but it won't be while married to me! He changed his tune now. But I mean every word and I will follow through no matter how old I get or what the consequences to us financially. I will not stay in adultery again.
You have to take a stand if you believe in commitment and fidelity. Now!
Sure he will throw the past up at you to excuse his own behavior. make it clear, you're not that person anymore. Perhaps you're making a renewed commitment to God also and want to lead your life correctly and morally.
You do want your marriage to be healed. But he has to be commited to the same relationship for it to work.
It's decision time! And he has to decide one way or the other. Sure it would have hurt if my H would have chose ow over me. But I sure as hell do not want to be with a man who doesn't love me and only me!
I prefer to move on and have that type of commitment and love from someone else if need be.
I know what type of marriage I want. I've strived for it. It's been over 30 yrs for us together.
But it wouldn't continue with me being the second best!
Or just one of the bunch. He knows this too. Twice in 29 yrs I was cheated on. Pain has been awful and i've told him he nor anyone else is not worth that anymore. So he can straighten up his act or move on.
I'd rather know and live alone, or find someone new than suffer at his whims!
So, there you have an answer. You get what you ask for. Never asking or telling him you expect commitment is not going to get it for you either.
NO EXCUSES FROM HIM. He hasn't got one good enough.
Clean the slate and rebuild under new rules.
LouLou

Hello WorthIt,

I have had 2 PAs (without SF)prior to my most recent one. I didn't have any PAs until my H started up his first close female friendship about 4 years ago, that I made it clear to him I was uncomfortable with, but I was told "tough, deal with it, there's nothing going on." So state of the marriage was fine, but I was not happy about that female friendship. Well, my H wasn't happy with how much time I gave to my work, and my lack of interest in exercising with him. Hence the justification for the female friend, who was willing to exercise with him. The second close female friend wasn't added to the mix until the year preceding my third PA. My H knows about them all. He forgave the first two perhaps too easily. He claimed that it "turned him on" too. Sick.

Ladylou - thanks for the suggestions for ways to answer that question!

Any and all folks: What do you think / predict my H will do about my birthday? (See list of possible reactions in my previous post above.) I figure I'll let my parents invite him to dinner. If he says no, so be it. I won't go begging him to come anywhere near me for my birthday. If he happens to show up, what a pleasant surprise I guess.

Jen

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

AAAARRRUUGGHHH!!! GRRRRRR!!!

He just called. I answered - it's not that late. His first question was, "Do you want some action?" I said I might like some company. He repeated, "Do you want some action?" I said I'd like to be considered as something more than some action and asked where he was (I got the impression he was on his way over - he called on his cell). He said he was interested in some action, and did want to come over, but now was reconsidering. Phone call ended. I thought he wasn't coming.

5 minutes later, he's here, buzzing my apt, long and loud. I sat there and refused to answer it until the 3rd or 4th buzz. I said hello, he quietly said, it's me, I said I thought you just wanted some action, and then I heard the door and him leaving, he was gone.

I was NOT going to let him come up here, he was just going to paw at me until he got some. It's Thursday night, I know he was out at the bar with his brothers (for cheap wings night), and he is/was probably a bit on the drunk side. God only knows if he drove here sober or not.

MAINTAINING MY BOUNDARIES I AM. He is probably cursing me for being cold to a man who's lost his father or something demented and self-centered like that, but whatever. I'M STAYING STRONG.

This kind of behaviour both makes me mad, and makes me feel like I should give up on him. It reminds me of how he thinks I deserve to be treated. GRRR. I'm probably confusing him b/c when I saw him last weekend, we had SF. But that was after an evening of open and honest communication. Whatever. I'm glad I'm still here by myself!

Did I do okay?

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Good for you Jen, stay the course and eventually your message will get thru that thick head of his.

You know I couldn't help but wonder that if he had another woman he was having a PA with, he wouldn't be bugging you for sex. So in a strange way, his 'do you want some action?' may be a good sign. But you are still correct in expecting respect from him.

Jen, Jen, Jen.

I don't see him changing.

Plan B, tough love, cut him out of your life until he hits bottom and is ready to climb out of his gutter.

You deserve so much better.

WAT

Call me crazy, but I'm just not going to contact him at all, until after my birthday. I want to test him out to see what he is or isn't going to do for it. If he does nothing, it strenghthens my plan B resolve. I won't go to plan B until March.

I am going to visit his mom again this weekend, crossing my fingers I don't run into him. If I do, I'll just try to say very little I guess. If he's there and tries to invite me back to his place.....I guess I should say no, can't do it, unless your intent is for us to talk about things?

This week was the first week he returned to work after his father's passing, and of course he was back to spending his days teaching in a classroom next door to his two female friends, and therefore also spending lots of time with both of them. Then he resumes treating me like a piece of meat he calls just for sex. Coincidence? I think not.

What do I say to him when I next see him???

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 21, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>What do I say to him when I next see him???
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about "elevator talk"? Smile, be pleasant, ask "how are you?", etc. And if he starts in on more personal talk (or being abusive), just calmly tell him that unfortunately you don't have time to talk right now, (and that perhaps at another time you will?). Then with a smile on your face (and a swing in your step?), leave his presence. (that 180 thing, confidence thing, "keep him guessing what you're up to" thing).

If you're worried that he might show up at your MIL's house while you're there, then perhaps talking to your MIL about how you should react is the key. Tell her how you just don't know what to say to H, and that if he shows up, and you leave fairly quickly, assure her that it's not b/c of her. Just a thought.

I don't think you should completely ignore him until your plan b letter and resolve is set. But that's just my opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Karen

I would encourage one more thing.

When he calls, you renforce to him by what you say and do that you don't just want to be a "peice of meat" to him. I suggest you give him something positive every time by telling him what it is that you do want right along with what you don't want.

Along the lines of this:
" You know I can't just live with "action" every once in a while, It has to be a whole, loving relationship for me, that's what I want and need."

I expect you can word it much better, that's just an example.

BTW, you are not crazy, I believe you are doing well considering what you have been through.

SS

Topie - I just struggle with acting all happy-go-lucky when I'm not really feeling that way. That seems unhealthy to me to shove aside my real feelings to put on a show. It's playing games. I don't want to rebuild our relationship with dishonesty.....even though I've heard that playing those sorts of games (the whole 180 thing) works for some....

Well, I went to my MIL's last night, but H was not there, thankfully. By the sounds of things, he was out with the 2 female friends at a school sport event, which ticks me off, but I can't do anything about it, so I guess I should forget about it.

Today, I feel like calling him and asking him if he'd like to go to a movie, mostly because I just would like to go to a movie, but partly because I'm curious if he'd be willing, or if I'm still someone he's not willing to be seen in public with. The only thing is I'm afraid if I call and invite him to do that, he'll insist on us taking one of the female friends along. We had gotten into a very regular habit of the 3 of us going to movies prior to the A. I'm not willing to go as the 3 of us. I don't know how I'd tell him that though without getting his back up. I guess I just tell him that I was hoping to spend some time as just the two of us, and if he's not interested in that, then I'd just rather not get together?

Also, I need to talk to him about his "want some action" phone call, and although I know what I want to say (pretty much what stillseeking posted - I've said this SO many times), I know he thinks that's unreasonable. I can already hear his usual response, "Getting that kind of attention from me is better than getting none at all."

Demented aren't I? I talk all about going to plan B, and here I am thinking of inviting my H out on a date. But that is what I really want, to go out on some dates with him, where having SF is not an option, where just being with each other and talking and enjoying each other's fully clothed company is. We need to get reacquainted. I've felt dates are the way to do that since August, when I even wrote it in my letter that I left for him when I moved out. Heck, his mom has even been telling him he should try that.

So please, tell me any possible "cons" of me phoning him and asking him to go to a movie today. It's early, and I can wait a few hours before I call him.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />