Brief History:

Married 5, together total of 8, 11 yr D, 2 yr S. Found out wife was having what she called a "plutonic" relationship with Co-Worker. Found out about them thru email (me snooping) and then 4 day later she is filing for divorce. She says she has not talked to him since and that our marriage has been sour for a yr or so but never told me that a divorce could pursue. Tried marriage counseling with pastor, she even continued (stopped) a preliminary hearing. But after 10 days or so she called her lawyer and was pursuing the D. I basicly sat down with my lawyer and decided that by the time everythig was said and done (debt-equity) we would have nothing to split after the lawyers got thier share. So I decided to leave her with everything. For some reason (I think she is unsure what she is doing) she did not sign the papers and kept asking me why I wanted this to be over with so quick (another reason to thik she not sure cause if we wait for a judge she would have ~2 months to think). I told her this was her decision to file and why not get it over with. So because she did not sign the papers, we met with lawyers and I signed a precautionary which divide up the bills and I move out. She changed locks etc...Right after the meeting we went home and I gathered some of my things and duriong all of the yelling/screaming/hugging she says to me the reason she did not sign the papers is because she is not sure she is making the right decsion and just wanted space and time alone. I agreed and only talked to her re: finances/kids and even did that via email.

THE PROBLEM:

I have been absolutely misreable, especialy not talking to her. Picked up my son from DC and dropped him off and she is very nice and asking "how I am doing". I node ok and get into car and leave. I bought a Hallmark card about "missing you/here for you" and put in mailbox prior to dropping son off. She called me this morning to ask a silly question and then she said thank you for the card. Then asked why I am doing that. I told her (like many times before) that I am standing up for my marriage and that I love her and that we both have made major mistakes and that I am willing to work it out. I told her that I made a vov to her and I am standing up to it. It sounded like she was crying (actually made a co-woker cry from over hearing me) then I asked if she was and then she immediatly switched subjects (back to why she called in the first place) and then we hung up.

My question is she missing me? Is this a good sign that she is trying to contact me via phone (hear my voice). The reason she called could have been taken car of via email, I mean after all she wanted space/no fights/time. But I believe she is having second thoughts. I truly beleive that GOD want sus to be togther and for that to happen I have to become one with GOD cause the closer I get to him the closer I get to my wife.

Comments welcome!

Hi,

You are not confused. She is. I commend you on being able to wade through all of this in such a short time. You are confusing her because you have not shown you displeasure, frustration and anger. All of which are valid feelings and the WS uses it to promote the A. Yep, you got that right, they become our worst enemy......

How familar are you with the info here? The concepts section will give you a brief overview. You have actually jumped to the tough love stage so along with the books Surviving an Affair, His needs/Her needs.....try the book Love must be tough...this one is by Dr James Dobson. There are more. Reading will help you maintain your confidence. You are in a fight for your life, your w's and that of y our children.

I think you are doing good. NOw you need to strengthen yourself. I also think you threw your wife for a whopper by following through on her D threat. You called her bluff and it confuses her.

IMHO, of course.

take care,
L.

You can recover. Many people have, but you need a plan. In your case, it sounds like you need to do what is called "Plan A" by Harley (see What Are Plan A and Plan B? Beyond that, do three things, so you are prepared for the time when the affair ends:

1.) Learn. Read everything in the Basic Concepts section of this site. Next, read all the Q&A's on infidelity on this site. They are found at How to Survive Infidelity Then buy and read “Surviving an Affair”, by Willard Harley, (hereinafter referred to as “SAA”) available at the Bookstore. SAA is THE best book on the market for helping one get to the root of “the message of the affair” (BUT YOU HAVE TO DO THE QUESTIONAIRES!). It (along with the Basic Concepts section of this site) is also helpful for giving you a vision of what a great marriage should look like. The approach of SAA to this problem is that the best defense against affairs is to have a great marriage. My wife said we had a good marriage, but she still had an affair. She was kidding herself, but it was not until we read SAA and saw what a great marriage should look like that we could clearly identify the problem areas and had the tools necessary to fix them.

The phrase “the message of the affair” is from the book “Torn Asunder”, by Carder (hereinafter referred to as “TA”). I personally think this is the best book on affair recovery we have read. In particular it deals with the two different paths the recovery of the betrayed spouse (BS) and the wayward spouse (WS) need to take, and deals w/ remorse in a way that I prefer to SAA. Read it together, if your spouse is willing. If not, go through it yourself. If you or your spouse has issues with control, you might also want to read “The State of Affairs”, (SOA) by Todd Mulliken, which also treats the remorse issue similarly to TA. SOA also deals with "the vision thing" for marriage, which is neglected in SAA.

2.) See a marriage counselor. This is hard. You need help. These boards are populated by amateurs. MC’s are professionals. There is a difference. They can help deal with issues the books don’t cover, and customize things to your individual situation. That said, there are lots of bad MC’s in the world. Read, and take to heart, How To Find A Good Marriage Counselor. You do not want an MC that is going to teach you how to live with an awful spouse, or how to adjust to divorce. Too many of them do, as is documented here: Hazardous Counseling. Reading that link may scare you off counseling, but it should give you some good ideas to ask a potential MC before you start w/ them, so you can avoid those that give you the wrong answers. You need one that is committed to helping couples have great marriages, and knows how to do that.

You are on an emotional rollercoaster right now, and there will be times that you will think it would be best to just divorce your spouse and go on with your life. Though there are no guarantees, recovery IS possible, but it takes time and effort. You will hate yourself if you don't do everything you can to make that happen. Give yourself the time you need.

3.) I understand that you may not be a person of faith, but for me, getting my spiritual life in order was crucial. As I said, this is hard. I knew I would need all the help I could get. Repenting of the habitual sins in my life let me stop pushing God away so I could hold on for dear life. I had to humble myself and ask Him what I had done wrong, and what I could do to be the husband He wanted me to be for his child, my wife. This was not about blaming myself. It was about doing what I could to do my part in having a great marriage. My wife could participate or not, but I had to know I had done everything I could do. It also helped me to let go of thinking about what SHE needed to do, since I couldn't control her, anyway.

You might also want to read through: WAT's Quick Start Guidelines for Betrayed Spouses, but keep in mind that these are the writings of amateurs. Get the books, read the articles, and see a GOOD counselor - you need the best help you can get.

Actually, I have one more suggestion for you, based on a hunch: Read "If Only He Knew", by Gary Smalley. It's short.

Exactly what is the legal arrangement you have with her right now?

Can you undo whatever the "precautionary" is?

I suggest you strongly consider backing out of all the legal arrangements, if possible, and moving back home. Do nothing more towards divorce unless you want one.

Legal Aggrements are I pay her ~300 a week in CS and I pay min. balances on Credit Cards and Car Payment.

Unfortunatley I do not think I can back out of precautionary.

Right now she is leading me to believe that is it great in the house with out me arguing. She has indicated it is peacefull. Which is probably true, but our arguments stem from the OM. And prior to me finding out we had typical arguments that were no way compairable to what we have been arguing about the last 2 months. So moving back in is realy not an option for me right now, it would have to be up to her. We have another hearing in march and than the final hearing is in August. So I believe I have some time to work with.

Thanks

Ask your lawyer about backing out of the precautionary. Anything before a divorce can be undone. If she has to agree, it'll be difficult, but if she doesn't have to agree, you can tear it up and move home since you were the one who decided to leave. I may be wrong, so ask your lawyer. This is the absolute best thing you can do, IMHO. Regardless, stop arguing with her about all things.

WAT

Yes, moving back will be best, but only if he can stop arguing. I suspect that the arguements pre-OM were perceived differently by him than by her. Also, she is involved w/ OM. He needs to do Plan A if he is home. No arguing. This is hard to do. Many have done it, (and I agree, WAT, it is the best option) but it is very hard.

I do not think I can back out of it. We both agreed to it and signed the papers. I would love to be home for my kids. Part of me wants to be out because the burden of raising the kids/laundry/homework/grocery shopping/cleaning etc is completely on her because that is what she wanted. I did not ask her for the divorce. I realy would love to be there to help but I am affraid at this point I would be "used". I want her to ralize it is hard to be on her own and to understand that as much as we nit-picked about house chores/driving kids to/from places, doing certain things around the house I was a major part of helping out.

SBH

<small>[ February 21, 2003, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Any Time Now...I will be Happy ]</small>

I understand your desire to "rub her nose in it", but I recommend you do what is best for your kids. You need to balance her "reaping what she sows" with your kid's welfare. Don't make them suffer any additional for her poor choices by denying them your love and care.
In fact, I suggest you take the opposite approach - help her every chance you get. Be a wonderful Dad and supporter. Show her how valuable you are - don't try to make her feel it first. Some may disagree with this - that this "enables" her behavior and you get taken advantage of. So be it for now. You can set boundaries while still showing your worth. This is part of Plan A. It is especially important since you are separated. You have to demonstrate your worth and improvements every chance you get. THEN, later it may be time to pull the plug, go to Plan B, and let her experience life completely without your help.

Bottom line, don't Plan B before Plan A. Get it?

I guarantee she is WAY more confused than you are. Show her your compassion and love. DO NOT argue or make demands. The card was perfect. Keep doing that - but don't over do it.

Now, to more practical matters - how much light of day has this affair seen? Is OM married? What do the kids know? What does her immediate family know? What do your close common friends know? You mentioned OM is a co-worker - what type of business? Co-worker or superior? What do you know about what she's told OM about your marriage?

All of these questions are meant to put this thing in context to see what, if any, "outing" of the affair you should attempt. The consistent professional advice is that the secrecy, if any remains, needs to be exposed. This often causes the house of cards to collapse.

In the meantime, if she makes an offer to end the legal separation - jump at the chance. You need to be back in your house.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, to more practical matters - how much light of day has this affair seen? Is OM married? What do the kids know? What does her immediate family know? What do your close common friends know?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basicaly I do not think her friends know. OM is married. She told her parents. They told her she needed to tell me or they would (they love me like a son and are upset that is doing this to thier Grand Children) she never told me so they did. I knew, but they confirmed after she kept lying about it. I kinda believe he is out of picture for some reason. Not sure though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mentioned OM is a co-worker - what type of business? Co-worker or superior? What do you know about what she's told OM about your marriage?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lets just say it is not a Boss but they could still cross paths. As far as she has told me they were starting to get close, but thats when I found out via snooping on email. I actually called him on phone (got off her cell-long story) she told him she could not see him any more. Our home phone shows that she called him the next day though. She told me that they did not talk about our marriage although she told me about his. She actually told her mom and dad that he was planing on getting a divorce and they would be togehter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Show her your compassion and love. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats hard...cause what if she is using me and has not intentionof working it out. Catch 22?? I see your point but do you mean help her out on a daily basis? SHe will not let me in house ALONE because before I left I distroyed some under garments that I bought just before she filed that in our arguments I indicated she wore with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> She has changed the locks. I think for know I need to earn her trust?

I do not think I can do plan A cause she has told me time and time again that it was "plutonic" and that it is over. Yet since then (over a month or 2) she told her M&D that they will be together. So bacislly she has denied it and I do not know what to do?

She's reading right from the WS script.

Yep, "it's over", "we should have never gotten married in the first place" and "I love you but I'm not IN love with you."

Right?

Blah, blah, blah. They all say the same things. The symptoms are so common that this disease ought to have a medical name.

She is very, very, very typical.

Since your in-laws already know and apparently support you, keep them in the loop, but be very careful about "recruiting" them in your wife's eyes. She sounds totally deluded to tell them that she's gonna build some castles in the sky. Just make sure they know you're committed to restoring your family and you can forgive your wife, but DO NOT try to get them to interfere with the normal course of the affair. If they do this on their own, so be it. But if she knows you're talking to them, it'll be a HUGE love buster.

Read all you can on this site about Plan A. This is where you should be right now. Identifying all the bad stuff you contributed to the poor state of the marriage and reversing it. Fix it and demonstrate your fixes. This is why you need to maintain contact with her.

Finally, you need to consider alerting OM's wife. The purpose for this is two fold: 1) to reveal the affair to the light of day on THAT side of it and 2) because OM's W has a right to know. You may get conflicting advice on this, but take it to the bank - this is the overwhelming advice doled out by counselors with vast experience in infidelity. The only reason NOT to do this seems to be in the case that the OP's spouse may turn violent.

I'm gonna be gone for the weekend, but I'll try to get you some support.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Any Time Now...I will be Happy:
<strong>[QUOTE]
I do not think I can do plan A cause she has told me time and time again that it was "plutonic" and that it is over. Yet since then (over a month or 2) she told her M&D that they will be together. So bacislly she has denied it and I do not know what to do?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AnyTime,

Why can't you do Plan A? In my opinion, if you want to save your marriage, you should start a Plan A RIGHT NOW. There is always hope that you can turn things around and restore the love in your marriage by meeting her needs. I suspect that all the fighting and lovebusting you have done for years, and especially as of late, has drained much of the love she felt for you. Your little actions like leaving the card do alot to restore it.

No more arguments. One of the reasons she doesn't want you to move home is because you both fought all the time, you have to change that and bring her to a point where she wants you to move home.

Any Time Now,

I know you're scared. I understand your pain, hurt and confusion. You've been thrown on this RollerCoaster ride and didn't even know you were going to the amusement park.

You are being given EXCELLENT advice. Having been on this recovery road for 5 years, I can assure you, the advice has been right on the mark. Try to move back home. Try to stop the divorce. I know you think they don't REALLY understand. I know you see your situation as slightly different. We all do,,,,and they are,,,but certain situations demand certain plans. I encourage you to keep posting. Keep explaining. If you think something won't work, don't hesitate to say,,and why. We can explain why it will or come up with an alternate plan.

There is hope here, Any Time Now. My H and I are in recovery for 5 years now using the MarriageBuilders principles. And I didn't think we had a chance in this world. We gave it one last chance,,,and we're glad we did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for all the comments.

However I am unsure of PLAN A. I mean she has told me so many times that the OM is not in her life and with all of the lies prior to this it is hard for me to accept. Am I supposed to chance she is telling me the truth. I mean really she has told her mom and dad about the OM and how they were going to be togheter yet will not admit that to me.

I feel if I bring up the OM it will just start a fight. Does she have to prove its over or do I just accept it and try to rebuild. I mean I am not sure she is telling the truth.

Do she need to be willing to want the marriage to work to still do PLAN A. Cause she want her space and time for now.

Thanks

<small>[ February 22, 2003, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Any Time Now...I will be Happy ]</small>

Anytime:

I encourage you to follow the advice of the Sr. MBs here. I thought my situation was hopeless a couple of months ago. You might want to do a search to read through my threads. I felt hopeless in the beginning but went on anyways and did MY PLAN. Regardless of what my WH said, I was steadfast. As others have said here, Wses look like rational human beings but they are not. It was helpful for me to think about my WS as being a DRUNK. Can you reason with a DRUNK or listen to anything he has to say. My WS said the same things. Worth a Try calls it the WS script: I never loved you, don't love you, etc. I am spending today with him, have been with him two weekends in a row after months of him being gone all weekend. The right PLAN A works. We are still not there yet but things are looking good for us.

Listen to the folks here and do what they say even if does not feel right to you or even if you feel that your situation is hopeless!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Any Time Now...I will be Happy:
<strong>Thanks for all the comments.

However I am unsure of PLAN A. I mean she has told me so many times that the OM is not in her life and with all of the lies prior to this it is hard for me to accept. Am I supposed to chance she is telling me the truth. I mean really she has told her mom and dad about the OM and how they were going to be togheter yet will not admit that to me.

I feel if I bring up the OM it will just start a fight. Does she have to prove its over or do I just accept it and try to rebuild. I mean I am not sure she is telling the truth.

Do she need to be willing to want the marriage to work to still do PLAN A. Cause she want her space and time for now.

Thanks</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">None of that precludes or is relevent to Plan A. Plan A is when you try to meet her needs and stop lovebusting her. The rest will, hopefully, fall into place. It doesn't matter if she is in touch with OM or what she told her parents. What matters is that you start acting in ways that ATTRACT HER rather than REPEL her. See what I mean? You do the things that make her fall in love with you.

Try to identify what her strongest emotional needs are and start meeting them. Stop love busting, stop talking about your relationship, stop bringing up OM. If she IS in touch with OM, you have to make yourself so attractive that she no longer wants to see him, but wants YOU. You see, the OM doesn't know about MB and will inevitably start lovebusting her when she begins to pull away from him. This will bring her closer to you.

LISTEN TO MEL-FOLLOW HER ADVICE!!!!

What she is saying did and is working successfully for me !!!!!

Thanks, Mimi! How is your weekend going? Can you give us an update on your thread?

ATN:

" She told me that they did not talk about our marriage although she told me about his. "

My W has said the exact same thing to me. I know different. But... ...and this is extremely important for you to remember at this point, in order for you to do a good plan A: IT DOESN'T MATTER. These As, and the way the WSs behave, are SO TYPICAL as to be entirely scriptable, as WAT has suggested. You can almost bank on EVERYTHING in the WAT "guidelines" to be going on in their heads at one time or another.

It is imperative that you "forget" about the OM right now. By that, I don't mean forget that there was an A. What I mean is, do NOT let him, or thoughts of him and your W, dominate your thinking. It will adversely affect your ability to do a good plan A FOR AS LONG AS YOU DO IT. I know. I STILL have a hard time putting him out of my mind, 13 months after D-day, and it causes the most difficulty in our attempts in beginning a true recovery, because even if I don't SAY anything about what I'm thinking to my W, I'm THINKING it, and the more I think about something other than US when we're still TOGETHER, the less I can focus on BEING with my W. Thankfully, ol' Qfwfq here is doing better at showing my W that I love her and I believe we have a PRESENT together (and if we have a today, we stand a good chance at a future as well). Progress is probably slower for me than most because my W's A was on and off for 12 years!

So, my recommendation to you would be to read all you can about plan A, then read it again several more times. Keep reading it and posting here about it until you're absolutely certain that you GET IT. In fact, keep asking people here whether they believe that you DO get it. I'm serious. We're guys. It takes many whacks upside the haid with that MB 2x4 to get the point across to us. I've got contusions to prove it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Remember, the more you concentrate on BEING M'd and the less you fret over the "fact" that your M is in the can, the sooner you'll see your W "return" to your M. She has to do this on her own. You can't do it for her. You can only control YOU. Do the best at controlling you that you possibly can, okay?

all my best,
-Qfwfq