From the other thread, just in case you miss it:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:

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Pray for my stupidity to give way to Grace
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GRACE... one of my favorite words...

You are full of grace, Pepper, dear. Nothing within you even resembles stupid.

Just be patient...

S. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll pray for you...have been for days now.

Ewwwww....yuck, yuck....ow, ouch, ouch. I see us in this so much that I cringe. He was a military career officer and we were both too young and had too much growing up still to do. I went from independent, sassy, sexy and bold to clingy, depressed, overweight. He went from being attentive to me, to being out with the boys all the time.

About seven years into our marriage a counselor advised me to lead a more independent, assertive life. I took the advice to heart. I became quiet and mysterious, independent, vibrant and interested in my own life and interests. My husband was happy to have his confident, career-oriented, super-high earning wife back. We were happier on the surface but were now living very detached lives--he played on pool leagues, I went to the opera. I no longer went and cheered him on at his softball games because he never came to any of my events and played cheerleader for me. He left the military, got another high-powered job, we were in the top 1/10th of 1% in income. We had German sports cars, a lovely home, no children, we flew all over the world, took lavish vacations, loved each other but rarely connected if we weren't in a hotel in some lovely location. He led me to believe that if I couldn't stand him traveling so much and spending most of his other evenings out pursuing his interests that I was showing an extreme lack of self-confidence that would push him away. I even went away for six months to take a temporary (career enhancing) position in Europe (complete agreement on both parts--lived a very long-distance commuter marriage). Eventually, a younger, slimer version of me came along and he was gone in his affair. She wanted my life, my husband and all that we had worked so hard to build. She wound up with his child, a support check and I got a broken, depressed, under-achieving husband who hates himself and may always hate himself for what he did. He violated every single principle he every held dear and that he used to use to ridicule others with--he didn't know how other people were "stupid enough" to not be able to control their own fertility.

Extreem independce is indeed as dangerous for a marriage as extreme dependce. I should know, I have been both places.

I am praying, hoping and tyring to help him recover his own sense of self-worth. I suffered terribly in the wake of his affair and child (especially given my own infertility) but I have bounced back. As he put it, when he got thrown off the horse, he didn't bounce back, there was just an awful thudding sound. I have forgiven him; I wish he could learn to forive himself.

MJ

Hi Pepperoni! You must have ESP -- we've been discussing very similiar issues on another board (did you get my e-mail?).

I definitely can relate this stuff to my marriage(preaffair). We've been discussing how mid-life issues contribute to the whole affair thing, which includes most of what was quoted. How our focus, expectations, and communication changes from when we're young to when you start mixing in marriage, kids, the house, the career, finances, etc.

And we were discussing how WS anger leads to an affair. Someone brought up "The Dance of Anger" and that an affair could be the forming of a triangle to vent and disfuse the anger away from the marriage. When I just read about "passive men" I realized it's really the same thing. Interesting stuff. Do you mind if I bring up this thread over here?

So glad I was lurking today (I haven't posted in so long that I had to clean my desk to find my password!). Sorry to hear about the troubles with your son again....you have my prayers too.

Hugs,
JJ

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JJJJJJJJJJjjjjjjjjjJJJJJJJJ

My favorite Redbook RiffRaff buddy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, I got the email. Thank you.

Please feel welcome to use anything I write on any public board!

I've thought about you in all that ~~~snow~~~

I am more than a little brain-fried .... and I'm tryin' like hell not to post nutty UFO and MICROCHIP paranoia ..... but, I'm holding on to myself for all it's worth!

LOVELOVELOVE

Hey [red}PEPSI[/red]! (can't remember if the colors work here)

Anyway, the other board that was created went down and I've created a new one called Redbook RiffRaff.

Would love to have you join. Do you still have your iVillage account? I remember something about you getting banned because you were too mouthy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Anyway, let me know and I'll send an invitation to you.

I'm dealing with a LOT in my marriage right now. Hubby and I are going to counseling.

Hope you and yours are well!

sel

Pepper mouthy???? Imagine that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I wanna join the other board... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Susan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pepper, you ok today?

Well... I'm not on much these days, but I guess I needed to see this, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Like Susan, you have described my life (and marriages [2]) to a "T"... Yuk.

I have (woefully) realized that my friends, co-workers, and family (children, extended family) have been put in the position of "lifting me up" -- heck, even Marriage Builders (and those I've met through this website) has been "used" (if you will) to promote my agenda (subconsciously, and not in any way to hurt anyone - just something I've realized recently).

There are days, even still, that I think I should just rent a hut on an island somewhere and work on myself until I'm emotionally well. I mean ALONE... all alone. I suspect that the sad fact will be that (said somewhat tongue in cheek) Wherever you go, there you are. I need to find a way to live in this skin and not rely on others to provide what's needed. I think it might be a lifelong process.

Thanks for the great thread, Pepper.

...and look who shows up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Sheryl! I've missed you and your excogitating...

Love ya <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

S.

I got notice the ivillage mail was not going to be free of charge .... so, I don't know if I still have that account???? I'll go look.

Post to me here if you want Sel. I don't have the stamina for another board at this time, and I like this one lots.

I miss your spunk! You southern girls sure have *grits* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You southern girls sure have *grits* </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep, we do...We 'shore do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, 'nuttin like you Pep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

S. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey Pep, it's me again! Sel has a lot on her mind right now so I'll make sure she gets the message. I suggested to her that we take a field trip here to kidnap you -- but thought the
other MBer's might not like that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />
Can we at least kidnap the cute little faces with the eyes that move? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But I'll suggest we take the field trip anyway -
there's lots of smart people here to run things by <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (oh no! an RRR invasion again!)
I'm gonna send my sister too -- she thinks her hubby is starting an affair again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Sorry for going OT on your thread.....
Miss you!

Love, JJ
P.S. Pepper isn't mouthy, she just tells it like it is! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">P.S. Pepper isn't mouthy, she just tells it like it is!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNOW THAT; that is exactly what I love her for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I didn't believe it for one minute. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but thought the
other MBer's might not like that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO! We absolutely would not stand for it.

But, she does need to be kidnapped. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> We need to rent a little Italian villa and take her away..she needs some rest.
S.

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>