I know some of you might slam me for my ideas in this area... but I strongly feel that men / husband's should work hard to provide for their families and that they should pay the majority of the bills.. . if capable... and especially if there are young children and the mother/wife wants to be there for them. Also I especially believe this if the husband is someone who wants to be cooked and cleaned for and basically taken care of domestically and h has a strong need for wife to do those things, ect.

My wh is a southern man from GA- who acts like I am suppossed to be the one to do all the domestic duties.. he barely did any of them for the first 5 yrs of marriage, but near the end of the last 11 yrs had improved some, but not to the level I would of ever imagined a h would be when I marrie.d

Now, also I have done yrs of gourmet cooking for this everso picky eater wh, but since I started working more and more hours in the later part of our marriage wh can't even remember all those nice dinners I cooked for him.... I CAN!

Anyway, he is still fogged so keep that in mind.

Right now I am convinced he is being dishonest over the amount of money he makes to child support/tx att. general and me. I take that to mean he is being dishonest to the kids too.... IMHO. But anyway, he is doing side work on his own and does just a little work for tax reportable pay. I know he is being dishonest! Although I have confronted this issue, he tells me that he is not dishonest here.. but I can't prove it.

Anyway I have told him now that I am angry at him for being financially irresponsible and not caring about the well being of me and the boys.

He denies this. I think he has been this way for yrs. He denies this.

Anyway, IMHO- a h should pay all the basic bills. He seems to think I am insane when I suggest this? Now he used to not be exactly like this, but perhaps I was blinded by love in the past?

Opinions please. Please don't slam me too hard for wanting to be a traditional wife at least while my kids are young.

I work very hard and for the last 5 yrs of our marriage have on average earned more than wh.

I am tired of this scenario, and only kept working harder and harder so that me and the kids would have stability. FUnny the harder I work, the more he doesn't work..... this is the essence of my problem here. Thinking we have quite a problem on this issue.

thanks, H

Honey,

Does it matter one whit what we think the role of a man should be? What matter is what he DOES. I just don't see how your opinion about his duties is going to do anything but frustrate you when he inevitably fails you. The bottom line is that *JIM* doesn't believe it and has no intention of supporting his family.

This is one area where I am very grateful for the influence of my radical feminist mother. She always taught her girls to never depend on any man and to make sure you can always support yourself. The buck stops RIGHT HERE. Every one of her 5 daughters is entirely self supporting,a and some of us very comfortably so. [4 are married and 1 is a millionaire] Because, as you have discovered and many others here, there is ABSOLUTELY no guarantee of anything.

Frankly, I'd tell him that if he wants you to pay half the bills, you're gonna expect him to do half the housework,,,,,and then make a schedule and tell him what HIS chores are, but he can't have it both ways,,,,,Holly

Good evening Honey...

I've been reading your posts and seeing a new version of the Honey that used to post here. A stronger one! That is good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'll answer your question this way...whatever works for you and your mate. I think this balance of household duties, childcare, financial responsibilities, etc. is the key balance of a marriage. My M is a good example. We were happy as 'pigs in slop' when we did not have money, my W stayed home with our boys, and cherished me for filling that role as the bread winner and strong, typical male strereotype.

About 7 years ago, my W returned to professional work (at my encouragement <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), started putting more energy in that than attending to my needs, and I starting drinking more and more and more......

We spent 14 years in a blissful balance. It just happened that our balance was the typical one portrayed in 1950's TV <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> !

When that balance was upset, then the future was not known and niether was our roles in the M. Right now we are in recovery, but these roles still are being defined.

That's my little background...now if I might be so bold to ask you why you fee this way? I think your question is a symptom to what is really happening.

My opinion? Well I think your H is not the man you want to keep as things stand right now. If this is the case, then how long do you wait for the man you want to be born inside your H's skin? I think once you set a time frame along with your previous boundaries, you will be happier. That is, as long you hold true to your convictions.

You are getting stronger Honey!

Gib

I have never understood the people who shirk their financial responsibilities when it comes to these kind of things. I've seen it hundreds of times though. It's just another way to get back at each other without any thought to the kids involved. I have consulted with two different lawyers and they both told me that the way I have my separation agreement worked out in my mind that my WW would actually owe me child support. I wouldn't want any money from her, not because I'm such a wonderful person but because I believe it's my duty to not only take care of my children but to provide for them financially as well. That's JMHO.

IMO, the reason the majority of male WS's leave is to get out of their financial responsibilities toward their children. I knew it was true in our case the minute my H admitted that he could not separate his feelings about me from his feelings about our finances. It is no coincidence that so many men leave as soon as their kids start college - college is expensive, and the noncustodial parent gets out of paying for a good deal of it, and in some states doesn't have to pay a penny. The only reason a lot of men marry to begin with is that they can get convenient sex and they can split expenses. And when they have kids and discover that they are no longer better off financially with their family, they leave.

The court system is biased toward the noncustodial parent, financially speaking. In my state at least, the first consideration is whether the noncustodial parent has enough to live on - and they don't usually take into account the fact that the OW is supporting them. They can be living in the lap of luxury and the custodial parent can be living in poverty and it doesn't matter.

In many cases, affairs are ALL about money.

Nellie,
Doesn't your state consider the spouses income ALONE? That is what it should be based upon. You can't expect someone else to support your children. I make as much as my DH and it sure wouldn't be fair for his exW was to get a portion of my income. As it is, he pays 33% of his income for 2 boys, which is no small amount.

Thanks to all of you for your replies.. have to rush off to work right now.

IMHO- My wh wants more from me at home than I can do working as hard as I do. I also think his male attitude is that he should be the one who at least makes more.... it is getting harder for him to keep up with me lately- and I have exceeded his income 3 out of 5 of the last yrs, and the 2 I didn't, I chose to work less to my new baby and a back injury- not sure if I call either of those a choice.... IMHO.

Anyway, I am fine with the splitting of the housechores if we are both contributing financially, but not sure he would ever do his part. Now right now I don't have a housekeeper, and this may be part of my prob. as I need one.... we had one with 2 working.. and I have tried to alone, but it has not been really affordable.. so I go back and forth.
The housekeeper did solve part of the problem, but lately wh lays on me that I never cleaned... b/c of the housekeeper..-well he doesn't even KNOW or realize what else she doesn't do at home that I did. I guess you could call it male blindness to household responsibilities.. he has never done more than yardwork or trash most of his life. In the last few yrs of our marriage he learned to sometimes load the dishwasher and believe me that was a BIG accomplishment.

He grew up with a housekeeper and I think NO responsibility for inside tasks. I believe he doesn't think it is man's work and therefore just doesn't do it.

What Else?

I have no problem fully self supporting myself. I do that quite well and am up there on women's salaries- although I would prefer to be even higher and will be as time goes on. I have spent some time working from home with my kids, but rarely just home raising them, maybe 1 yr total for that.. or maybe 9 months for 2 of them where DH supported us.... And I didn't mind less money, I think my wh spouse does better when he is the breadwinner. I think he has a big issue affecting his self esteem when I earn more.

We had a couple of businesses together where I got to stay home to do all my work with the kids, and he was out bringing home the actual bacon making the sales and completiong the jobs.. but I did all that behind the scenes... finding the work, paperwork, orgainization, schedules, etc. ... ect. Well we had issue with that because DH still thought he did most of the work and did not appreciate me... now I see it might of just been ego and I should not let that matter... I know inside how hard I worked, but it would be nice to be appreciated... and I did balance my work with house and child care.

One last question b/f I dash off to work:

MLane, I notice you sd your h pays 33%, for 2 kids, is that in TX? I have found my dh will only be respohsible for 25%.... in legal stuff I have reviewed, am I wrong somewhere?

My big issue, is I strongly believe he is lying about what he makes so that he has to pay less.. since part of his income is self emplyoment, this incenses me, since my life is big time affected by having to be the sole breadwinner for me and the boys. IMHO, I would not of had kids to do it alone. This angers me.

Yes, this is something we are going tthrough.. part of my boundary definition. I do need him to work harder than he does.. and provide... more financially. I am not expecting him to be a millionaire, although that might be nice,
but I do expect him to work hard and contribute. RIght now I feel things for us if we do work it out, are too lopsided, but he is looking for a better job, and hopefully will get one!

Anyway... gotta dash, will ck in later from work.

H

Honey - I like you was the person in charge of the house, the kids, while working full time - with an exhusband who just up and left in the morning and never thought twice about anyone but himself - though in his eyes - he didn't do this - he is now telling me that I never let him do anything - that I was the one in charge and that I was the one that set all of the rules - but to me I was trying to making him happy - I was trying to make life easier for him - And it is funny now - that we are divorced everyone from the outside looking in - always thought that I did everything also and that he had it made... I to make more money than him but that was never an issue for him - I don't think that you can use that excuse for Jim anymore - I just think well - really where would I be now if I was a stay at home mom - when my husband decided he wanted to throw away his marriage - I thank god everyday for this job and that I am capable of supporting my children and me - though he does pay child support - $ 75 per week per child and to me I don't think that is really alot but he seems to think it is wonderful - because you know he is poor - but he hasn't got a parttime job yet because I am thinking he is afraid of what I will do - trying to get more money.... I just think that you like most of us here are still trying to take care of Jim and still making excuses for him - he may have been brought up in the south - so I would think that would make him respect you more - I just don't think you can change him - I think maybe that the only way to change him - is to really change yourself and you do sound like you have been coming along in that area... I wish you well - but you know I think you need to stop worrying about how Jim feels and only worry about how you and the boys feel...

Maw - Just a vent, and I am not too worried about WH- angry at him is more the current stance.

I will be discussing this issue later today in IC, and then with him in JointCounseling, so I wondered where I stand in relation to popular thought.

I do try to reason why he does what he does too much.... There is no real excuse. I was just explaining and venting a bit.

If J does not do what I think is required of a h financially, he won't be coming back home..

Frankly, I can support the kids alone, though this is not what I had in mind when I had them.

I think the more responsible I am, the more he feels he can lay back and be lazy.

When I was hurt in a car wreck and couldn't pull my part of the load regardless.... WH actually went out and made great money, he also wanted to top my salary, despite having considerably less education and prof. experience in corp. america, but he topped me quite well... the old WHite Male syndrome I do think they call it.

Men simply are able to get more b/c they are men... now I know this is improving, but I have fallen pray to this in my work experience, and believe me when finishing college I never expected it- I hold 5 yrs of grad. work in edition to college....

I def. think we women and esp. mom's are discriminated against in the workplace... I know things are better than they ever have been, but still not good enough- fair enought that is.

Maw, In particular I think you sometimes get the wrong idea from my posts.... but maybe I need to reread. I am not making excuses, I guess I am more trying to figure it out and see if he can be a h I want in my life at this point.

Alcoholism - makes it very baffling... b/c a capable man can sometimes act a bum.

Gotta get back to work, but I really appreciate everyone's post, sorry no time to reply individually to all of you right now, maybe tonite... helpful to read these posts to come to more clarity on my thinking here.

Thanks, H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Interesting... I have many of the same thoughts. I am mad at myself for trusting that he would take care of us forever, perhaps that is a fairy tale. I should have woken up sooner and realized that I needed to be more independent.

Also...someone mentioned that it seemed that the harder she worked, the more money she made, the less he seemed to do. That seems to be true here also. Also, mine keeps finding more 'get rich schemes' which get us only further in debt.

I have also been told that it is the father's responsibility to provide health insurance for the kids. I think this is an important issue.

Thanks for the good post.

Honey, this is a caution for you!!

If you suspect that your H is earning more money than he is reporting, by NO MEANS should you file a joint income tax return with him!

Why? Because, if IRS ever audits the return, YOU can be held liable for the taxes on HIS unreported income!

And, believe me, if he is only reporting a very negligible portion of his income, sooner or later, IRS will come along to bite him in the butt!

Given his irresponsibility in supporting his family, who do you think would end up paying any tax assessment and risking having HER assets attached on a tax lien. Yep! YOU!!

So, beware of filing jointly with your H, Honey, no matter how much he kicks and screams at you for not doing so. Not to mention, do you want him having access to any refund of taxes that YOU pay in? If he was to beat you to the refund check, I suspect that you would have to kiss your refund goodbye, as there would be nothing you could do about his spending it.

I don't know your income level, but the downside of filing, as "Married, filing separately" means that you won't be able to claim EIC if you qualify (income-wise). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> However, this seems a small price to pay when you consider that at some point, filing jointly with your H could cause you a whole bunch of trouble.

I used to work for IRS, so please take this warning to heart.

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Lady Clueless ]</small>

Honey,

Just a thought. You don't have any control over Jim and how much money he discloses that he earns. I don't see the point of stewing over this issue or debating it with him. He has already proven he is dishonest. And you're probably right - he sounds smart enough to temporarily hide earnings to avoid paying more child support.

My concern is that the time spent worrying about this issue which is outside your control, is distracting you from issues within your control. Such as your boundaries, your wellbeing, and your children's wellbeing.

I think you have made great progress with the IC & MC. We can all tell the difference in your postings now vs. the past. Just hate to see you get off track spending your energy on issues that you have no control over! CSue

Thanks CSue, for your concern. I know I have no control over whether he lies or not- I do have the option to tell him I can't trust him or take him back if he is a liar. This is a subject for us in JointC.

LadyClueless, thanks for the tax info, I do know that... but thanks for reminding me to be careful as we have some taxes due right now, I have been filing seperately for some time now, for that reason.

Gibby, I am thinking on your question... Why do I feel this way? I am angry that wh doesn't care about me and the kids well-being to the level I would like a h to. I am concerned he never will- sad I can love him, yet realize I can't be his mommy forever, in my book, men care about their families well being and lifestyles...

I am very concerned about his choices and lack of responsibility. I have been spenidng some time with him, but growing angry that he doesn't do his part at least financially. I feel used and dumped on, I would think it should at least be 50/50 with responsibility for the kids financially. I feel left and abandoned to do it all alone, when I thought 'my knight'- haha at this point, would alawys be there to protect me- haha- There is not prince charming or knight in charming armour.

However I am aware that many men do support their families and take pride in this.

My IC seems to think that this is a way the man gets his admiration needs met, by being the one who goes out to the world - and comes home and protects and provides... GEE, it would seem to work that way. I could respect him a lot more if he were admirable and respectable in my humble opinion.

This is a big issue for me and my h.

I hate to say that we could be a cuople whose marriage dies based partly on money issues, but this is a possibility, I can't take care of him, it is just not in my rulebook. I prefer a responsilbe mate, we married young and I always thought he would grow up, coming from a well off background.... he has grown up at times, but right now, i certainly would not call him that.

Anyway, gotta go again, just a few thoughts... more thinking to do on this...

Thanks to everyone for their posts...

H <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MelodyLane,

In my state, supposedly they take into account "resources" when figuring out how much parents should contribute to college expenses, as they should.

In my state, a non-custodial parent would not pay 33% of their income for only 2 kids. And why is that a lot, anyway? In a two-parent family, easily half of the parents' income would go to support the kids, probably much more than that. Parents may eat more if the kids are very little, but parents don't have the medical expenses, the educational expenses; parents don't outgrow their clothes every 10 minutes. I personally spend virtually all of my income on my kids, except for the food I eat - I don't even have a bedroom, I sleep on the couch because there are not enough bedrooms.

In my state, say the father has to pay 25% for one kid, 28% for two and 31% for 3 kids. Guess what - for 4 kids, he might have to pay 33%. And for 5 kids, he would still have to pay 33%. And for 6 kids, he would still have to pay 33% - the theory is that the poor guy can't survive on less than 67% of his income - and to H*** with the fact that you can NOT raise 6 kids on the remaining 33% - especially since it is rather difficult to raise 6 kids as a single parent while having a high paying, high pressure job. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO LIMIT CHILD SUPPORT TO THAT BASED ON 3 OR 4 KIDS. The first priority should be that the kids have enough to live on, and if that doesn't leave the non-custodial parent with enough, then he should get a second job.

And then there is the issue that men who are supported by wealthy women have the option of choosing not to work, or not to work very many hours - and there is very little you can do about it, because it is hard to prove that someone is in fact capable of getting a job - especially when the mere fact that he chose to remain unemployed for a long time by itself reduces his chances of employment, because now he has to explain a gap in employment. My H pays about $200 a week in child support TOTAL for FIVE children, and now has refused to contribute at all to our daughter's college expenses because he doesn't feel like it. The law in our state says that one purpose of child support is to make sure that the kids are not worse off than the non-custodial parent, and that their standard of living does not appreciably change from what it was when their parents were together, but that is all b***. My kids don't get to ride around in a fancy 4 wheel drive vehicle that gets 10 mpg. He doesn't have to go to the food pantry. He doesn't have to say no to the kids everytime they want to do anything that costs money. His neighbors are not giving HIM food and pretending that they got it free with coupons and aren't going to use it.

How many kids do you have Nellie?

oops, sorry, I see where you said five.

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Also, a second spouse is not entitled to a certain percentage of the man's (or woman's) income. If he were to have to pay 75% of his gross income on child support because had a dozen kids, and he only had a small amount of money left over, then maybe the second wife should think twice before marrying him if she didn't want to be in the position of supporting him. THE KIDS WELFARE COMES FIRST. I can not imagine wanting to marry a man who didn't want his children to have almost every penny he made that he didn't have to spend on himself to avoid starving or freezing. Good parents don't spend more than a small amount of non-essential money on themselves unless they have money to burn. I can not imagine wanting to, for instance, go on vacation when my kids were getting free lunch at school.

Susan,

Actually I have six, but one has finished college.

Honey,

In MB terms financial support would be one of your most important emotional needs.

Also, take care that your conversations regarding FS, don't come out sounding like disrespectful judgements (LB). Take a look at HNHN chapters about EN & LB. It will give you ideas for ways to address the issue in a way that isn't harmful to your marriage.

Good luck! CSue