Like I can take a break from MB.....that was just wishful thinking.

My life's too difficult to deal with it on my own, or by getting advice from friends who haven't been affected by infidelity.

Tonight was another night of my drunk H calling, and calling and calling AND CALLING, like 12 or 13 times.

He said the fact that I always talk to him in a calm tone indicates that I'm callous and unfeeling. I thought it was me not LBing, and trying to keep conversations productive, and not hurtful. I told him so. He hung up.

Once I realized he was drunk, I stopped answering the phone. I knew he'd just keep being hurtful and the conversations wouldn't be productive. He proceeded to call 10 more times. I answered on time #11. He said he was on shot number 5. Apparently he'd left me 4 voice mails saying he'd take a shot (of alcohol) every time I didn't answer. Oh yeah, he was watching the video of his dad's memorial service throughout his drinking and phone calls, perhaps over and over, who knows. I called his brother to tell him what my H was up to, how much he seemed to be drinking (perhaps drinking himself into oblivion) and that he was sitting there watching that video, and that I was worried about him but I knew that if I went over it would be more damaging than helpful or productive. I suggested his brother call him and check in on him. His brother was very concerned, and thanked me for calling him.

I answered call #12 from my H, just a few minutes after I got off the phone from with his brother. (Makes me wonder if his brother went over there instead of phoning) I got a chance to tell my H that I wasn't answering the phone because I didn't feel that talking to him when he's this drunk is productive, and that it usually just results in him being mean to me. He said no, you're the one who was mean to me. Then I got the speech again about how my H doesn't like my "superior, holier than thou, top dog, better than him" attitude that I supposedly have. Finally though, he said good night, so hopefully he's done with the phone calls. It's been about 10 minutes now, so maybe I'll be able to go to bed soon without worry of being woken up.

I was hurting so much this weekend. The guilt had completely enveloped me again after a visit I had with his mom yesterday. I cried myself to sleep last night, I was right back at wanting nothing more than to be with my H.

Then in the first phone conversation we had tonight he asked me why I did it, I told him I really didn't have any good answer to that question. I tried to make it clear how sorry I am for how I've hurt him, and that I think I really do see how much I've hurt him. He said what I've done to him doesn't compare to the hurt he's feeling over losing his dad. Then the other thing that he said that stands out for me is that he "will find someone else." I said I thought he was still undecided, or why else would we be in contact like we are. I said why haven't you filed for divorce already if you don't want to be with me and you're so sure of it? He said he can't file until the 1 year mark. I repeated to him that I thought he was still undecided and that's why he's been spending time with me. Also, apparently his mom has been putting pressure on him to try spending time with me, rooting for me so to speak. Not helpful apparently.

So he's an alcoholic, who still just wants to be hurtful. I talked to my mom tonight, and this was the last straw for her. She told me it's time to move on, to stop letting him try to damage my self-esteem, and that no one deserves the emotional abuse he's trying to put me through, that he hasn't tried at all to work on our relationship, etc.

So here I sit thinking plan B it is. My plan B, in short, needs to be, "I don't want to be in contact with you unless you decide you actually want to be with me, or try being with me with the intention of saving this marriage."

I let his dad's death, and his reaching out to me cloud my judgement, revive and intensify my guilt, and cause me to foolishly forget all that's wrong with how my H treats me. If he hasn't been able to find it within him to forgive me after 8 months, why would he ever find it within him? It's so likely he'll just never EVER let me live "it" down.

After tonight's performance on his part, my resolve has returned. I need to go to plan B for my own sanity, and self-preservation. However, it's going to be tought to continue to interact with his mom and other family. I guess I'll just be honest with her, that I'm done interatcing with him until he decides he actually wants to try to save this marriage. Between his drinking and how hurtful he is, I just can't take it anymore. If that means I'm impatient and selfish, I am sorry, but I do need to look after myself and my self-esteem. As my FIL apparently said, no one should live a life sentence for any mistake that they make. If I say it to her like that, then maybe she won't hate me too.

If you got this far, thanks for reading my vent.

Jen

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

I feel for yoiu because I had an affair a 1 1/2 ago and talked to him a few times after that, he lives away. My H went to rehab 6 1/2 yrs before that and he stayed sober until he found out about my A. He started drinking more and more last summer. He was seeing someone else with now he is living with.

My H blames me for his drinking again and blames me for him being with the OW and living with her. He keeps on telling me he doesn't know what he wants, comes over the house, we go out at times and then he goes home to her. He drinks alot more now. It is an everyday or night thing now. He throws it in my face all the time. And if I say that him living with his OW isn't right when he is still married he just tell me he screwed up and he wouldn't be there if not for what I did. It hurts very bad and I hate myself, but I am trying to get better in time and stop thinking of what would have be's. I was also in a bad car accident picking him up from a bar at 2:30 am and almost got killed, actually from the injuries I had to my face I should have been dead. And for some reason you can't even tell. I always tell myself if I didn't do what I did the accident would have never happened, because my H wouldn't be drinking again and we would have been home sleeping.

Jen,
I've followed your posts these past several months, but I am not entirely familiar with all of the details.

Nonetheless, I did want to tell you that I'm sorry for what you're going through here. You know, I cheated too--and I haven't once had to endure any sort of drunken phone call from my now exH. How awful for you. He's only ranted at me one time, right after DDay--and he apologized for that rant. I guess you can see why I still am holding out hope for a reconciliation, and we're already divorced! He's a calm, stable man!

You said,

"I knew he'd just keep being hurtful and the conversations wouldn't be productive. He proceeded to call 10 more times. I answered on time #11. He said he was on shot number 5."

I once heard a radio psychologist tell someone who had received harrassing phone calls that they should take the phone off of the hook. I think that sounds like a good idea.

You also said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he hasn't been able to find it within him to forgive me after 8 months, why would he ever find it within him? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, I really could be wrong here but I don't think 8 months is that long. He may need more time than that. More importantly though is he needs to quit abusing alcohol or he'll never get through anything!

I think you still love him and want to work it out, right? I'm sure he's deeply traumatized by his dad's death. My brother's death affected me so profoundly that I only felt absolute anguish. I think until someone has lost someone very close to them, they don't know how it quite feels. He is still reaching out to you. Don't give up!

I know I must not make sense here, Jen. First I say to take the phone off the hook, and then I say not to give up. What I'm saying is 1) don't take the drunken behavior--he needs help for that and 2) 8 months isn't long--at least he still needs you, and wants to talk to you.

You two are in some sort of conflict phase, and that's better than the withdrawal that I am seeing all the time .

I hope I've helped a bit, and please vent anytime. I know how you feel, Jen. I had a wretchedly lonely day!

H_P

The anticipated postive result of a good plan B is they come back to us, right?

I can't sleep and I keep going through possible scenarios in my head. Here's how I figure my H will react to a plan B letter:

1. Ignore my request for no contact. Blow up at me and accuse me again of acting all superior, high-falootin', etc., etc.

and/or

2. Tell his mom so she stops being nice to me. Or maybe even tell his mom I cheated on him 3x so he looks like less of a meanie - he said to me tonight that he feels like telling her that sometimes.

and/or

3. His pride is so huge, he'll just never talk to me again, and let the divorce go through.

and/or

4. His drinking will increase, the late night phone calls with continue.

and/or

5. He'll accuse me of being selfish when I shouldn't be putting pressure on him and should be more patient b/c he's really struggling with the loss of his dad right now, and can't focus on us.

Just thought I should type up those predictions, and give you all a little insight into my H's tendancies.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>The anticipated postive result of a good plan B is they come back to us, right?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that's half right, Jen.

The other positive result half is that you isolate yourself from painful, self destructive behavior in anticipation of your own recovery and life without him. You take control of your life and prevent him from stagnating you. You make the statement that until now, he has chosen not to participate gainfully in marriage recovery. Until now, HE has chosen to remain destructive rather than constructive. In essence, until now, HE has chosen to be separated from you - with undefined terms necessary for reconciliation.

Now, you're making the decision to STAY separated. Now, reconciliation is on YOUR terms. You take control.

That said, I anticipate a HUGE potential for false starts once you go to Plan B. He'll sober up and say the right things one day, then it'll be back to "Wanna F***?" the next.

So I believe your Plan B must be firm and lengthy. He has to hit bottom and he's not there yet. You have to disappear and be completely unavailable to him. You have to cut him off completely.

I'm not sure how you're gonna do this.

Perhaps I'm overstating this. I hope you get some good advice from others.

WAT

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 05:15 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>

He said the fact that I always talk to him in a calm tone indicates that I'm callous and unfeeling. I thought it was me not LBing, and trying to keep conversations productive, and not hurtful. I told him so. He hung up.

He said no, you're the one who was mean to me. Then I got the speech again about how my H doesn't like my "superior, holier than thou, top dog, better than him" attitude that I supposedly have.

Jen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you come across to him this way in your Plan A? This is something that I would definiately look into before I even thought about moving into a Plan B.

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melody Lane: I am not sure what you're trying to suggest.

My attempt to remain even-tempered and calm was strategic on my part, and part of my plan A. YES I come across to him that way. What do you mean "look into it?" He's told me this now twice. I don't think I need to "look into it" - I know for a fact he feels that way.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Melody Lane: I am not sure what you're trying to suggest.

My attempt to remain even-tempered and calm was strategic on my part, and part of my plan A. YES I come across to him that way. What do you mean "look into it?" He's told me this now twice. I don't think I need to "look into it" - I know for a fact he feels that way.

Jen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point is that if you came across this way, it is a HUGE lovebuster and did not have the desired effect. There is a HUGE difference between polite, loving, noncombative from "superior, holier than thou, top dog, better than him, callous and unfeeling." That is NOT Plan A, that is a lovebuster. [lovebusters are always determined by the receiver]

If you leave him with all those negative, aversive feelings, and go into Plan B, it might be a relief if your treatment of him has been perceived as negative. What is there to ATTRACT him?

Jen,
Maybe I am missing the whole story here, but when someone treats me in what I view as a condescending manner, I become ENRAGED.

jen brown...

Tell his mom so she stops being nice to me. Or maybe even tell his mom I cheated on him 3x so he looks like less of a meanie - he said to me tonight that he feels like telling her that sometimes.

knock the wind out of these sails... sit down and have a talk with her... tell her the whole story... she will not like it but she will respect you and she will understand... don't let him hold this over our head...

oaktown...

I am feeling lost and mislead by MB and SAA. I got the impression that I should remain calm and sincere as part of a good plan A.
How was I supposed to be behaving all these months????

Was I supposed to cry one minute and yell the next? I got the impression that every time I cried I either looked pathetic and unattractive, or annoyed him, and if I yelled I also looked unattractive, and sent him the message, "I'm going to yell at you when I made the mistake."

The first time I got accused of being "high-fallutin," I asked him how I should be instead, and he said humble and that I should be kissing his a$$. Is that how I should be Melody Lane? I need some pragmatic suggestions here if possible!!!

Oh, and oaktown....there's only one huge problem with sitting down with him mom and telling her that. It means that I'm inviting her into our marriage and our marital problems, where she doesn't belong. It means that I 'm trying to go through her to get to my H, also not right in my eyes.

Help me folks, I feel like everything I thought was black (eg. the right thing to do) is now white (totally wrong and misguided).

Jen:(

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

I am concerned that you do nothing to protect yourself from his onslaughts of FOG-LATIN except engage with him about it...which is futile...

BELIEVE nothing he says about you and him....it is all fluff and baiting to get a rise, reaction of you and lacks any substance...

You know when you two have real encounters you can tell the difference...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then the other thing that he said that stands out for me is that he "will find someone else." I said I thought he was still undecided, or why else would we be in contact like we are. I said why haven't you filed for divorce already if you don't want to be with me and you're so sure of it? He said he can't file until the 1 year mark. I repeated to him that I thought he was still undecided and that's why he's been spending time with me. Also, apparently his mom has been putting pressure on him to try spending time with me, rooting for me so to speak. Not helpful apparently.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen babble back ignore, skip over say is that a siren I hear in the back ground...change the subject...you two are way way to engaged in constant heavy relationship he said she said encounters in which plan A can not thrive since no needs are being met.....
Do not engage and power struggle his nebulous shallow comments at this time...until he files it is just shallow babble...

He hurts you because you beleive him...crap I barely believe a word that comes from his mouth and I don't even know him...he's either drunk which really makes the reality meter dip way low OR he's just saying stupid fluffy let's get a rise out of Jen crap...it is his schtick...and yours is to believe it and respond and then be hurt...

And again you're back to focusing on how he treats you..plan A is about you and what you allow in YOUR life...

I think you need to seek encounters where you meet his needs...and not through conversaton ad-nauseum about the relationship....strive for some not so "deep" interactions...send a quick email with a joke or story that might make him smile...send him some cookies/treats cook his favorite meal and leave it on his doorstep for him...try to break up this cycle of intense drag out wrongs of the world and focus on other light hearted things...

Jen read about babbling back...
ARK

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>

Was I supposed to cry one minute and yell the next? I got the impression that every time I cried I either looked pathetic and unattractive, or annoyed him, and if I yelled I also looked unattractive, and sent him the message, "I'm going to yell at you when I made the mistake."

Jen:(</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, I don't know how you should have been acting, and maybe he is just lashing out when he says those things. I don't know. [he was drunk after all] But remember, what counts is how he PERCEIVES your behavior. A lovebuster is always in the eye of the beholder. But Plan A is meant to be percieved as loving, calm, polite, NOT callous, unfeeling, condescending. It is intended to ATTRACT the spouse, not REPEL them. I am just saying there is a problem if he percieves your treatment as such but, I don't know your entire situation. Just take it for what its worth.

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Jen, I don't think you've been doing it wrong (other than delaying cutting him off). I don't think you had much choice in how you treated him once you chose to continue to try to interact positively. I think you were doing it right as well as you could.

I think Mel's point is that your H received your "calm and cool" as a love buster. Of course he did! I believe you've been in a losing battle as far as interaction is concerned for quit some time. Nothing you could do would NOT have been a love buster, perhaps. "High falootin'" and "holier than thou" may have been the best you could do.

Please continue to consider a hard core Plan B.

WAT

double post

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

Jen,
Please just stick with WAT said, he knows your situation alot better than I. Generally speaking, it is a big problem when Plan A behavior is perceived as a lovebuster and my red flags went off when I saw that. Wish you the best! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen - You did the right thing phoning his brother. That's a sign of a healthy response. Good work. Hang in there with your calm attitude. Your H may not like it but it will certainly help you. Continue to take care of yourself (your running, etc.) and work at healing. The crying is part of healing unfortunately. It sound so tough to be alone but it sounds like you are doing the right thing with your Plan B.

THanks WAT, ML and Krisse. I just wish there was some way to NOT make my calm demeanor an MB.

I just noticed and listened to another voice mail from him, that he must have left last night between calls.

I wrote it down for future reference:

"When did you feel you got the right to set all the rules and act like you're all powerful and all mighty and your high-fallutin' attitude? Where'd you get that from? Because you certainly don't deserve that attitude."

I hear that as, when did you get a backbone? I got a backbone after I went for some counselling and learned about boundaries and started to have some self-respect and placed value on myself and my feelings before those of others (eg. my H). But if I tell him that, bang, another LB.

What's your take on that message?

I feel like I need to sit down with him and have a big old talk, to somehow actually make clear exactly how I feel, but man, if my demeanor alone is an LB, I am screwed from the get-go. That, and I've avoided R talk unless he brought it up, b/c I felt it would be selfish to bring it up when he's grieving over the loss of his father.

???Jen???

<small>[ February 24, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

When I was thrown that 'you think you are perfect' speech, I was at first, taken aback. I was shocked since that is NOT what I meant.

Then I had to realize that I was dealing with a real wacko (aka: someone in the fog). Remember the distorted sense of reality mentality????

Once I realized that, my comebacks became prepared and eventually I learned to reverse babble. Thereby disfusing the fogese.

So in reaction to his speech (which by the way is great because your H tends to repeat himself - like a broken A record - which may mean his is NOT doing good as a WSU student (wayward spouse university - LOL!!!), I would say something like: 'No I don't think I am perfect or high flaluting, in fact I am trying to overcome my low self esteem problems. Now how are you going to help me?' While he is stammering, let him know he can get back to you and if he does you would appreciate it if he does it in a kind and more gentle manner.

JMHO,
L.

Be real. Be truthful. Be sincere. Be emotional. Emotional honesty doesn't have to be an LB.

Don't 'act.'

Jen, hon, you have to be yourself. and, it is awful hard to know what an LB is to the other spouse if you aren't both on the same page.

As I have followed your story I see that both of you are struggling to be in control of the process. I was in the most emotional turmoil when I did this. When I surrendered and focused on ME and not my H or the marriage or the process, I settled down and the process settled down.

It takes two to tango, so-to-speak.

Hugs and prayers,
Cali