Hello: This is my first post to the discussion board, but I have been exploring the MB website (and doing a lot of other reading) for several weeks and have found it to be extremely helpful. Now I'm in need of some advice. I'll try to keep my story brief, but it's not easy. I guess each of us feels that our story is unique in some way!

My husband and I were very good friends with another couple. We spent a great deal of time together as couples and families (our children are good friends) and even went on several vacations together as families. 7 weeks ago the husband came to me with his suspicion that his wife and my husband were having an affair. Even though my H and I have had ongoing problems within our marriage (relating to us not meeting each others' needs for intimacy and affection) somehow I just couldn't believe it. But after a week of doing some investigative work and confirming the suspicions, we each let on to our spouses that they had been discovered. My husband admitted the affair and explained that he had become extremely unhappy in our marriage (due to lack of intimacy) and had basically given up hope. He was planning to leave our marriage (even before the affair started), but was waiting for the "right time" which would cause me and our 2 children the least amount of pain. He feels he was "ripe" for an affair. At some point he confessed his unhappiness to our friend (to whom he had always had a friendly attraction), and she subsequently divulged that she was unhappy in her marriage as well, and that's how they got started. It went on for 7 months before we figured it out.

This whole mess has been especially devastating because we were all friends (or so we thought). It's been like betrayal squared -- not only did my spouse betray me, but he also betrayed the OW's husband (who was his good friend), just as the OW betrayed her husband and me (her good friend).

After a weekend of crisis and painful revelations, the OW and my H got together to talk, at which time she told him she couldn't see him any more. The cut-off was very abrupt, with no explanation to my H (although the OW told her husband that she had a revelation that it wouldn't work out with my H and she wanted to try to work on their own marriage). Since that time 6 weeks ago, my H has repeatedly voiced to me his need/desire to get together with the OW for "closure." He really wants to know "why" and "what happened for her." However, out of respect for the OW's husband's wishes and apparently hers, he has not been in contact with her. He says that as time goes on he is coming to grips with the fact that he won't be able to have the "closure" that he wanted and his feelings for her are dwindling. Meanwhile, we are making progress with our marriage and in many ways it's much better than it's ever been. I would describe us as in Plan A (although he hasn't specifically voiced his re-commitment to our marriage). It feels like we've been through the fire and survived, and are coming out the other side better than ever. He is in therapy, I've admitted to my role (not meeting his needs), we are talking a great deal about all our issues, we've been having regular great sex, and it feels like we're on a path to recovery.

However, a few days ago my H got a call from the OW's secretary (to whom she had confessed) telling him that the OW had written him a letter and he could pick it up at her office. He told the secretary to tell the OW that he didn't want the letter; he wanted to talk to her in person. However, we found out that evening that the OW and her H had just left with their kids for a 10-day vacation, so he decided to pick up the letter after all. He still has not opened the letter (I think he's nervous about it) but says he plans to read it before they return from their vacation.

Well, yesterday the OW's husband called me from vacation to tell me about the letter and it's contents. Her therapist had suggested that she write a letter but not actually send it. Apparently she decided she would send it anyway, and her husband was able to read the letter right before they left (without her knowledge). In her letter the OW tells my H that her plan to focus on her marriage isn't working, she hasn't gotten over my H, and she plans to separate from her husband as soon as they open up their cabin in the spring. She wants my H to call her at her office as soon as she returns from vacation early next week. (Again, my H hasn't read this letter yet but will undoubtedly do so in the next few days.)

Needless to say, I am extremely nervous about how this letter. I feel that my H was coming to grips with the "no contact" and was getting over his "addiction" and our marriage was beginning to heal. But now when he reads her letter and gets the sense that she's available to him, I know he'll want to see her. I don't know what to do! At first I felt I was totally at their mercy and I'd just have to wait and see what transpires. Then I contemplated writing to her myself and asking her to stay away from my husband and out of my marriage and give us a chance to heal. If it doesn't work out, she can have him. Then I thought of confronting her in person as soon as she returns, before she has a chance to get together with my H. I guess I would be appealing to her sense of remorse for hurting me and the loss of our friendship (which she did express to me in a note right after D-Day.) However, I hesitate either of these latter options because I'm afraid my H will feel I've manipulated the situation (or tried to, anyway).

Please, does anyone have any advice for me? After feeling so good over the past few weeks, I feel so vulnerable again right now...

Me- female, BS - 45
WS - 51
Married 13 yrs, together 23 yrs
2 kids: S-10 & D-12
D-Day: 1/2/03

BS in NE-

I don't have much in the way of useful advice but you'll get some soon so hang in there. I'm sorry to hear that you're in such a stressful situation, especially considering you and your H have apparently made some head way in addressing problems that led up to the A. Keep reading the materials available on this site and make yourself familiar with Plan A/B. It's a delicate situation you're in because you don't want to do anything that pushes him towards her while at the same time letting him know in a respectful and loving way that any contact with her is counter productive to R. Good luck with all of this....

Are you sure he hasn't read the letter? Do you think that he may have read it and is telling you that he hasn't because he doesn't want you to know it's contents.

Why don't you suggest "Honey, we are doing so good. I have an idea. It really doesn't matter what is in the letter. Why don't we just burn it and not read it?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Then talk to him about replying to her letter with a no contact letter . Tell her that you burned it and for her to please not attempt to make contact again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This goes for you communicating with the OW's H too. Each of you should focus on your own marriages now.

Good luck.
S. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for your thoughts. I am positive he hasn't read the letter yet. I just checked and it's still right where he put it, unopened. I do like the idea of asking him to burn it, although I know he'll never agree to that. As for my contact with the OW's husband, we haven't had much contact at all after the first couple of weeks, but he made a special point of calling me (from Hawaii, no less) to give me a heads-up on what was coming down the pike. I'm grateful and don't want to fault him for that. We're both in the same boat, wanting to do all we can to save our marriages, if it's possible...

Your request for your husband to end contact with OW -- including destroying the letter -- is not unreasonable. If he wants to keep his marriage he'll do as you ask. Be careful how you say that, but it must be a clearly stated boundary.

You know, this is a VERY GOOD EXAMPLE of why no contact is so imperative. Any contact with the OW will put him right back to day one of withdrawal and will put *YOU* right back to D-Day revisited. It is the basest sort of cruelty to a BS who has already been through hell and is doing everything to make the marriage work. All efforts at recovery are nullified if there is any contact.

I would lay down a boundary right now because as long as there is ANY KIND of contact, there will be NO recovery. And I don't know what "closure" means except some psychobabble excuse to redevous with the OW again. The only "closure" that can take place in conjunction with a recovery is a real, heart felt NO CONTACT letter. That is the LEAST he can do in light of the fact that you gave him another chance.

Please protect yourself and insist on no contact. I would ask him to tear up the letter.

Steve Harley:

"My experience helping couples recover from infidelity has taught me that any contact between the unfaithful spouse and the lover ruins reconciliation. Even casual contact prevents completion of withdrawal from the addiction of an affair. Since an affair is usually an addiction, the only way to fully recover is to permanently separate the unfaithful spouse (the addict) from the lover (the source of the addiction). But even in the very few cases when an affair is not an addiction, total separation of the spouse and lover is a necessary act of consideration for the feelings of the betrayed spouse. It's the very least a wayward spouse can do to compensate for the suffering caused by the affair. Continued contact with a lover simply perpetuates the suffering of the betrayed spouse indefinitely.

It's been my experience that without total separation, mutual love cannot be restored, resentment cannot be overcome and protection from the threat of another affair cannot be guaranteed. So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again."

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html

Thank you so much for your reply. This is exactly what I needed to hear. Unfortunately I sincerely doubt my H will agree to "no contact" once he reads the letter that the OW wants to see him. His rationale will be that he needs the "closure" in order to move on (of course, that's not her intention). Besides, he hasn't bought into the concept of "no contact." He has thought all along that all 4 of us should get together and "clear the air" (and perhaps even get over this and be able to carry on some sort of friendship!)

So I'm thinking right now that their getting together is inevitable (probably within the next week), and I need to get in lots of deposits to our "Love Bank" between now and then!

No one has offered any advice about the idea of me contacting the OW before they get together (either in writing or in person). On one hand I feel that may help, but I'm worried that my H will see that as manipulation/interference (a BIG negative) -- any words of wisdom about this?

Again, thank you so much to everyone for the feedback. It's been very helpful, as I haven't really talked to anyone else about any of this.

It's probably not a good idea to talk to her. It rarely works the way you'd like it to work. Besides, she isn't really the issue here. Focus on you, your husband and your marriage instead of how she factors into that mix.

What Melody Lane said, is what you need to hear. As far as him stating he needs closure. That is a bunch of hogwash. My husband said that to the Harleys, that he needed to keep the talk with other woman going for closure. It wasn't closure, it was the contact. Everytime he heard her voice, it brought back the neediness, the excitement, the fantasy, the yearning, the sex, the intimacy. There is no closure, using closure is an escape. Your husband hasn't spoken the words of complete separation from the otherwoman. He still wants her foot in his life. He still wants to talk to her and hear her voice.

Your husband needs to be totally honest. He needs to have her completely gone, totally out, buried, etc. As long as there is any kind of contact, a letter, a voice mail, anything, there will be no reconcillation. Even to keep anything of hers, is still a sign there is contact with her. If he was willing on his part to say, I will not read the letter, I will burn everything, that would be good. I didn't have that either, and therefore I know there was never a desire in my husband to reconcile. He still has the OW stuff, and I know why. Cause he wants the contact with her, in his life. He never really got over her. And she was nothing good.

I feel you are hurting, and feeling so torn. You have reasons for these feelings, and there is so much pain. Wishing I could help you more, this is painful. Counseling would be advised.

BS,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I would be appealing to her sense of remorse for hurting me and the loss of our friendship (which she did express to me in a note right after D-Day.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you see her letter to your H negates that she feels any actual remorse? She's willing to hurt you again. She doesn't give a rip about your friendship. She's continuing to lie to her husband, do you think she wouldn't lie to you?

The woman you thought had your well-being at heart doesn't exist.

She should be out of your life.

As for your H, the ties are deeper, a 13 year marriage, kids, a life together. He also isn't showing much regard for you at this time, but marriages can be rebuilt, love can be restored.

But, at this point, I suspect you have some rough road ahead. Especially if she leaves her husband and/or the 4 of you meet. In theory, it can seem like a good idea to "clear the air", but what is more likely to happen is that the 2 WSs will meet/talk afterwards...because if it is the 4 of you, the 2 of them won't feel "closure".

I believe closure is a lousy concept. Because when you talk to someone, a little later, you still wonder how they are doing and more freshly so because you've just seen them and maybe you wish you'd asked...something or they said something you don't understand. So you really should speak to them because it wasn't the closure you thought it was...

Meeting for closure tends to lead to the need for more closure, which is where "no contact" comes in.

I'm both FBS & FWS, recovery since 5/00 and I can tell you no contact with the OP is best for the marital recovery.

For now, I'd recommend you remain in Plan A, with no lovebusters, and like you've said, making love unit deposits if possible. Plan A is designed for the BS dealing in an ongoing affair, which, in some ways you may be. It isn't unusual for an A to resume.

I'd also recommend you see a counselor who specializes in infidelity. Steve or Jennifer Harley offer phone counseling through this site and it would be well worth it for your H to hear some truths about infidelity and no contact.

What better way to get closure than dstroying her letter and sending a no contact letter of his own? What better way to get closure than to rebuild his family and make it stronger than before? Besides, who ever gets "closure?" Sometimes life isn't so tidy and seldom is it when things are as messy as two families entangled in this way.

I agree ... his need for closure is a way to continue contact. Period. Clearly state your boundaries.

Ooops! Double post. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: whippit ]</small>

I can try to "insist" that my H not see the OW next week, but I'm quite sure he won't agree to that. Lor said, "For now, I'd recommend you remain in Plan A, with no lovebusters, and like you've said, making love unit deposits if possible. Plan A is designed for the BS dealing in an ongoing affair, which, in some ways you may be. It isn't unusual for an A to resume."

So if he does see the OW and it appears that more contact will occur (as in - the affair resumes) is that when I go to Plan B? I must admit I'm confused about this - about how to remain in Plan A if he gets back into it with the OW. And I'm reading conflicting info. about when is the right time to switch to Plan B. What I'll really want to do is give him an ultimatum: either no contact, or we'll have to separate until it ends, at which time we can see if we can heal our marriage. But I'm worried that'll just push him away, and worried about all the downsides of Plan B. I don't want to rush into it, but on the other hand I don't want to "enable" him to keep going with the affair while I'm also taking care of his needs at home (have his cake and eating it too).

Thanks so much, everyone...

With the WS in an ongoing affair, Dr. Harley recommends a 6 month Plan A or until the BS feels their lovebank has drained to the point where they may no longer want to reconcile or recover. Plan A can continue through separation.

Plan B includes separation and is no contact between the BS & WS and Dr. Harley's time outline is 18 months.

I stayed in Plan A 18 months. At which point we separated for the 7th time and my lovebank was drained. We reconciled about 5 months later.

Optimally Plan A allows you to make any changes in yourself that you wish to, to try to remain at the point where reconciliation is possible for you if your H also reaches the point where he wants the marriage.

However, if the affair becomes active, it is very difficult to live with the WS. Under those circumstances I found I could Plan A better while separated. But my H wanted to spend time back in our house and with the kids, some WSs don't.