(shortened title, same thread)

I can't talk to my W about ANYTHING.

We had a convo this morning, no angry outbursts, no what I would call LBs, a fair amount of crying, but no, and I do mean NO sign of any progress on her end at all.

*She still thinks I beat her up periodically, even this morning. I didn't. Bottom line is I can't say anything about US, let alone the A, without it being perceived that way.

*She wants me to ask the MB forum what I think "Marriage," "Wife" and "Husband" mean. She doesn't want to be a W, and doesn't want a H. I keep thinking it's because she doesn't understand what they mean, that she thinks they mean ownership, but now I have to wonder if it's my wishful thinking that has me hoping that's the case, when it isn't. I'll post the poll, but I don't expect it to do me any good, any more than my SF poll last summer did.

*She has tried a couple of times to get appointments with her IC at Kaiser, but gets lost on their hopeless switchboard and never gets through.

*She has no regrets about having an A. I talked to her about me looking on her A as a "gift" that was neither right nor wrong, that spurned me to grow when I otherwise may never have done anything, but then I started wondering if I'm trying too hard to appease her.

I believe I NEED to let go and let her decide whether to grow or not, but when I do, nothing happens, no matter how much I believe I'm pulling the pressure off when I do so. Whatsoever. Except for the arguments, nothing in her thinking has changed in over a year.

-Qfwfq (FKA 2long, T-zero)

<small>[ March 10, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

qfwfq...

i'm curious... what do "marriage", "wife" and "husband" mean to our wife?...

no... it’s not time to give up... it’s time to brace yourself... you’re hitting the soft spot... keep going...

oaktown...

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: oaktown ]</small>

(((((hugs)))))

Old friend, cool down.

We know you love your wife and that you want to be with her. But you need to start looking at things in a different way if you want to stay and stay sane.

Your wife is set. She won't change. She is alright with the way things are and she won't change unless she sees, for herself, how this is terribly wrong.

She has issues with marriage, so it doesn't help to be married.

Now let me tell you something I learnt one from a taxi driver. I was comming back from a party, and this taxi driver was chatty. He somehow ended up telling me the story of his marriage.

Him and his exwife had gotten married in love. Had kids, the marriage deteriorated in both sides. His wife had issues with the whole husband-wife title thing. She didn't like it, she thought it cut through her independance etc etc.

So things went from bad to worse, and they divorced against his wishes. After the divorce they had planned on going their separate ways. The kids were grown up enough to take care of themselves etc etc.

Once they were divorced, she figured she loved him, she wanted to be with him. So they got back together, but with one condition... never to be married again. And they were happy ever after.

I don't know, maybe the whole traditional sense of being a wife and a husband is too heavy for her. Maybe she can live better with a secret marriage of true minds, I am not sure.

If you want her though you'll have to live knowing she is like she is, she won't be sorry for what she did. And she is comfortable as she is now. Maybe someday she'll change, but you can't count and shouldn't count on it.

Take her as she is now, release her from the whole wife status. Or part your ways and find somebody on your same page.

Life is short though, and you'd be beating yourself upside the head for all eternity if she isn't the one and you are standing there for nothing. Same goes if she IS the one and you two are just wasting wonderful years due to stupid titles.

Those are my two cents anyways.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She still thinks I beat her up periodically, even this morning. I didn't. Bottom line is I can't say anything about US, let alone the A, without it being perceived that way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Put a moritorium on it, then. That's what I did... almost exactly one year ago... let H stew in his own juices and I quit adding any seasoning...

Funny things can happen when you stop talking to them... they start to have to think about their own stuff and not yours... they quit thinking about how to 'defend' themselves... how they 'DON'T WANT TO DO THIS ANYMORE!'... they begin to SEE you and stop avoiding you... @ least my H did...

So yeah, toss in the towel and QUIT talking about stuff... just DO IT for YOU...

Cali

Cali:

Geez, it's been over a YEAR since D-day. We're deteriorating, at least relationshipwise, and the whole time ol' Rat Meat is STILL OUT THERE.

I can certainly stop talking about us, if that's the right thing to do (and it has "helped" in the past), but I'm ALSO losing my desire to spend the rest of my life with my W.

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

((((2/T/Q)))) <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I'm sorry to hear this. And I don't have an answer for you.

It is something only you can know...and when it is time to give up, I think you will know.

Love ya,
S.

If she feels that she did nothing wrong about having an affair after a year and shows absolutely no remorse and refuses to let you even discuss it then I think you have your answer. I simply do not see how you could possibly ever trust her not to do it again and again since she feel she has done nothing wrong. Do you wish to live this way?

2/T/Q..

Hey, put all those names together and we have a new "cute" name for you... TootieQ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I made you smile, didn't I?

S. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Susan:

"2/T/Q..

Hey, put all those names together and we have a new "cute" name for you... TootieQ

I made you smile, didn't I?"

No, you made me burst out laughing out loud! And I'm on a telecon right now (but fortunately I had the speaker muted!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 07:02 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

qfwfq...

I give up

try letting go...don't give up...

oaktown...

hummm...Gordon Lightfoot...you must be about my age.

And those purple tennis shoes ring a bell.

Did I know you in an earlier life? Where did you got to college, TootieQ????
S.

Qfwfq-

Just 2 hours ago, my counselor and I went over this exact question. When to toss the towel in.. When do I say I can't handle my WS living in this fog, sitting on the picket fence, getting me to be the domestic need keeper, and the EA all the fun.. We do have two young kids.. Well, I talked and wrote and talked and wrote, and we pulled out words, and finally at the end it came down to I'm not ready to throw in the towel. I can't live in this "fog" indefinitely, but.. I'm not ready to give up. Putting a lose time frame helped it to not seem so overwhelming and open ended. Write down all your feeling of why you want to leave, what will you lose, gain, what will change- will life be "better" without her, "worse", "no different".. I know you love her. I know it's terrible when you can't talk about anything- I can't either. The A are not brought up, and if I question anything- I'm the spying - causing problems- person. But please don't throw in the towel until you are sure you - yourself would be a better person without her. If at this time you will be no different, then please- give it more time so you never look over your shoulder and wonder if you gave it enough time. Just remember you are becomming a better person day by day being on Plan A.. I haven't read your whole story, so not sure if kids involved. {{{{Hugs}}}} I understand.. I told my counselor that the word "fog" is so perfect, because besides the WS being foggy, they pull the BS into the fog and we never know what we are bumping into ... I wish you the courage and patience to do the work, and make a decision that you can feel confidant about.

1. You may be trying to hard to apease her.

2. That book tells how I view a H and W. In fact, it outlines it really well. It's a partnership where we pool our different talents to make something that is more than a sum of the parts.

3. It has been one year, but the A was 12 years.

4. If she doesn't care, and has no regrets, there would be no tears. It's what they do, not what they say.

5. I feel Steve could still help you. His job is to restore her love for you before you want to quit. You already know he is a good coach.

6. "I quit" is pretty final, but you must have strong feelings to say it. More going on than one talk could produce?

PEPPERRRRRRRRRRRR, bring that 2x4 and come on the runnn!!!!!!!!!!!

I have to be gone for a few hours, but I care.
SS

ALW:

"Old friend, cool down."

At least I have enough of my wits about me to realize that this, at least, I do HAVE TO do.

"Your wife is set. She won't change. She is alright with the way things are and she won't change unless she sees, for herself, how this is terribly wrong."

I'd like to help, or I'd like to at least see her seek help on her own. But she's done NOTHING since her last IC session in July. Maybe it's my fault for not bringing it up MORE, but bringing it up at all hasn't helped either.

"I don't know, maybe the whole traditional sense of being a wife and a husband is too heavy for her. Maybe she can live better with a secret marriage of true minds, I am not sure."

Maybe. Probably. But WHY? So she can have a R with RM on the side? She may say she doesn't want to, but she definitely does want to keep him as a friend. And she does still seem to believe that her secret life is inseparable from her private life, and she's entitled to all of it, regardless of how hurtful it is to me. I'd be happy to 'redefine' our M, with clear definitions of what it means to be M'd, but I absolutely will not tolerate a "friend" that she had an illicit A with for 12 years.

"If you want her though you'll have to live knowing she is like she is, she won't be sorry for what she did. And she is comfortable as she is now. Maybe someday she'll change, but you can't count and shouldn't count on it."

Reminds me of the "measured honesty" IC's recommendation that I "tolerate [my] philandering spouse's As." Maybe someday she will change. Better be sooner than later. I will continue to love her unconditionally, but I won't live with her and am losing my romantic love for her even as we speak.

"Take her as she is now, release her from the whole wife status. Or part your ways and find somebody on your same page."

I'd like to hear more about how to take her as she is now, releasing her frrom the "wife" status, and still be able to put the A out of my mind as not a threat to our life together from now on. I'm close to ready to part ways now.

"Life is short though, and you'd be beating yourself upside the head for all eternity if she isn't the one and you are standing there for nothing. Same goes if she IS the one and you two are just wasting wonderful years due to stupid titles."

So should the titles be clarified so we both understand what they mean to US? Or do we give up so that we waste no more time?

-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I give up,
-Qfwfq </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pleeeeasssse, take this off. You are NOT giving up.

oaktown:

"no... it?s not time to give up... it?s time to brace yourself... you?re hitting the soft spot... keep going..."

This is clearly where I have NO CLUE, after 13 months, how to do this. HELP!

-I let go!
-Qfwfq

Bryanp:

"If she feels that she did nothing wrong about having an affair after a year and shows absolutely no remorse and refuses to let you even discuss it then I think you have your answer."

If this is truly the way she feels, then I believe you're right. I'm just not sure she knows what she believes. She's still in the fog, after a bloody year! I may not be able to help at all.

" I simply do not see how you could possibly ever trust her not to do it again and again since she feel she has done nothing wrong. Do you wish to live this way?"

No, I don't.

I let go,
-Qfwfq

Susan:

"Did I know you in an earlier life? Where did you got to college, TootieQ????"

CSULB, CSULA, USC

Forgot, before CSULB, there was GWC, OCC, and CSUSD.

I let go,
-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

So you want a blunt suggestion?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"(wife), I think I figured out that, since you dislike marriage and being a wife we are better off divorcing. If you still want to be with me and ONLY with me afterwards, let me know. If not I think I am about done, and yes I will stick a fork on me to make sure I all well done all the way through"

Divorce, then let things develope. You are in desperate need of moving away. Well what is more important. House remodelling or your love and sanity?

It is all in your hands, you cannot count on her to make a sane desicion to save her life.

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Alostwife ]</small>

2boysmom:

You made some very good points. I guess I have done something like you've described, I just haven't had a REALLY GOOD counselor to talk to or get good coaching from about this. And I would have to say, right now, that I do love my W too much to want to give up now. But at the same time, it really feels like we haven't gone ANYWHERE in the past 13 months as far as repairing our M, and so it's hard to see where the edge of the fog bank is.

We have 2 kids, a 23yr-old D, and a 15yr-old son. My D has known about the A since last March. My S doesn't know.

Interestingly, my D is working with my W. On the way home last night, she was talking to my W about making life choices and grieving the lost alternatives. She was talking about dealing with the house, but also alluded to the A.

I let go,
-Qfwfq