My W thinks people that post to MB must have nothing else to do in life. Should I tell her that I've posted something like 3500 times in the past year? Guess I place figuring out our problems too high on my list of priorities for her taste. ...but that's not fair. That's a sarcastic DJ, and I apologize to her for making it, even though I didn't say it to her.

She asked me if we could agree to try to find out if we have a future together, not to specifically try to rebuild our M, which she felt was "over" 2 years ago when she said she wanted a DV (but didn't file). I agreed, but I wonder if I should have been more specific regarding my "conditions" or better stated, my boundaries, for that goal. I need a NC agreement. I'm sorry to anybody that thinks I should focus on being Md instead of RM, but folks RM IS still a big part of her life. She actually said again that I "expect her to give up a big part of who she is." I'm not being vindictive here. I really can feel my desire to stay in the M slipping away. It slipped a LOT last night, not because I was angry, but because it felt SO GOOD to be able to be honest about how I have felt all these years that I KNOW that I can have a much better life than the one I'm leading now. Either with a commitment from both of us to focus exclusively on US, or by myself.

I should say, though, that my W did reiterate that we would have no physical relationships outside our M, but then sarcastically followed that with "not that we're having a physical relationship, and I'm not sure we will again."

So, I can't say whether I can tell if this is the beginning of the dawn or not. It doesn't really feel like it. Unless dawn could consist of getting a DV. But if dawn means her waking up? Well, it's certainly possible. She did "evolve" a bit last night, but only a bit.

Will it be enough for me? No, I don't think so. I'm sorry, but I really don't think she'll give up RM without a really BIG, BRIGHT dawn, and since she is so pessimistic about C, the books, and these forums, how is it going to occur?

Okay, I've got work to do! &hearts,
-Qfwfq

Okay:

I'm going to post this here, because though I've posted it in others' threads in the past, it seems to not be on the mark enough for those people to have taken much of an interest in it. It interests the snot out of me, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm going to post the quotes (from our website, but I don't know the original source. SC, help?) and describe how I feel that *I* fit within the definitions. Then, if people are interested and are nice, I MIGHT take a guess as to where I feel my W falls. But, truthfully, I don't think that's important. It will be labelling her, DJing her, and at this point I'd just as soon let her actions and behavior come FROM her, rather than risk "putting her off" by second-guessing her here. So... I guess I've answered my own question: I'm not going to speculate about what she thinks or feels. My life is mine to expose to the forum as I see fit. And in this case, I see fit. &clubs

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree."

Qfwfq: I believe that I'm a very private person. Perhaps to a fault. I'm NOT a secretive person, though. I think I'm just too transparent to be secretive. I have kept secrets in the past, though, some of which might have been harmful to my M. Many of these were either revealed by me to my W after D-day, thus "defusing" them, and some she figured out before D-day, possibly using them to justify her A to some degree.

"The Difference Between Truth and Honesty

Truth is empirical, demonstrable fact. Your bank balance, today's date, whether or not you're married.

Honesty is about feelings. If you're honest, you are open and clear about how you feel. You can be truthful without being honest and you can be honest without being truthful (the latter a little more difficult). The best relationships, stating the painfully obvious, are both truthful and honest. Trust is built on both truth and honesty, tempered by the proof of predictability and reliability."

Qfwfq: I'm very truthful, but I'm less honest than I would like to be. I still struggle with "radical honesty" about my feelings, but when I've been successful in showing or telling them to my W, it's been very rewarding. It can never be hurtful, though it might seem to be intially if it appears you're putting someone on the defensive by "expecting them" to reciprocate and tell you how they feel if they're not comfortable doing so.

For me, not being too private is difficult at times. I guess I'm often afraid of being judged or ridiculed for my personal beliefs. Not being secretive is easy as pie. It's just too obviously destructive to be secretive. Plus, people must be able to read me like a book just by looking at me. Being truthful is easy (Das da faks, jak!). Being honest is harder, but the most rewarding of the four.

&hearts,
-Qfwfq.

"Did I dream this belief?
Or did I believe this dream?
Now I can find relief. I grieve."
-Peter Gabriel, "I grieve"

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> &hearts &spades &clubs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you've got to put a ; after it, TootiQ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

♥ ♠ ♣ ♥ ♠ ♣

I wish we could help more.

It "feels" like you are going about this correctly. I suppose more waiting, more talking. ( Yet again.)
If you are not helping her, you are to some extent learning what your future looks like. Most of the things I could say, you already know.

Does she ever express her feelings?
You say ILY. She is not willing to say that. What does she say?
She seems to be saying " you took me for a ride, and I want off." Is that what you are getting?

What good does she see in your relationship - why does she stay? ( In her words, not yours)

SS

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

oh duh! I just realized after all this time that you are 2long!! lol Hey, I might be slow, but I am good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

SS:

"Does she ever express her feelings?"

Yes. Very much so when she's angry. Seldom about much else. She expressed her feelings and "trouble" by dropping hints, or saying "I'm attracted to someone else" then went underground when she started the A.

"You say ILY. She is not willing to say that. What does she say?"

Absolutely NOTHING.

"She seems to be saying " you took me for a ride, and I want off." Is that what you are getting?"

Something like that. She says she told me many times before we got M'd, in no uncertain terms, that she didn't want to be M'd. She agreed to finally, I think because she felt we "had something" worth persuing at the time. She never felt like M meant the same to her as it does to me. Last night, she described it as "I have much more liberal views about M than you do." Or MB, which she thinks will steer me toward religion or is bogged down by religious thought, or at least full of people with nothing better to do with their lives than post here.

"What good does she see in your relationship - why does she stay? ( In her words, not yours)"

In her words, she says she's willing to "work to find out if we have a future together." She's willing to be sexually faithful to me. She didn't say emotionally faithful, and I didn't press the issue, because I'd quickly get to wanting a NC agreement as part of our "agreeing to find out if we have a future together."

♥
-Qfwfq

2TQ~

In our current home situation, I am at the place "where the rubber meets the road".

NOT knowing what choice to make in a two-choice dilemma is ..... crazy-making. MAKING the choice is nothing but sufering. Once the choice is made, there is a semblence of peace. There is action to be taken. Knowing what you are going to do is liberating.

Your current anguish is not knowing what you are going to do. Remove your dearest darling wife's inability to choose from the picture for a minute.

Your choice is ..... ???? Make this simple by reducing choices to the most common denominator, like a math problem.

My H and I have mde some decisions about our family situation, and, until we decided, and worked through our reasons for delay, the alternatives, and all of that .... MAKING the decision is torture. Follow through is difficult, but not torture.

I need a nap <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need a nap <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepper,

Are you home or working?

Go climb up in your bed and snooze. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> How is my "bubbleprincess"...hum...or is.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

♥ S

Q:

In her words, she says she's willing to "work to find out if we have a future together."

The word work implies doing things that may be difficult. Like learning to discuss feelings without anger. Exploring things that are painful.

Is she really willing to work. Did you get that from your discussion?

SS

Susan, I'm at work .... snoozing not appreciated here!

no, not at mine either... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Missed you...feeling better?

♥ S

well .... yes and no

I am dizzy as all get out.... and my focus sucks! I am well physically, just out of gas.

Doing therapy tonight.

Gotta finish up here, rest a bit, and keep on keepin' on.

Do Y'ALL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> call it Therapy Thursday at your house?

God bless!
♥ S.

Pepper:

First, glad to see you back! Hope you can give us an update after you've stared at your eyelids for a coupla days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

"NOT knowing what choice to make in a two-choice dilemma is ..... crazy-making. MAKING the choice is nothing but sufering. Once the choice is made, there is a semblence of peace. There is action to be taken. Knowing what you are going to do is liberating."

Well, I'm thnking about what I might do. My choices are clear. Stay or not. If I stay, I've got to accept my W the way she is, whether she grows while I'm staying or not. If I don't stay, I have to figure out what to say as to why I'm not staying, when I might do that, where I might go (assuming I'm the one that goes), and stil: I have to accept my W the way she is, whether she grows while I go or not. I've got stuff coming up in the next several months that she's a part of. My 50th B-day party this weekend, a trip to her research property at the end of March (that we've been planning for several months) and finishing the house (and POJAing what to do with it). This will take several months at least. It's just a building, though, so if the choice is to go, we could cut loose the house without finishing it, though I suspect that one of us would live in it and we'd both retain ownership of it for our kids. The trip next month is an important opportunity for me to show my strong support of my W and her goals. I can't compete with RM to some extent, though, because their EA was "based" on this mutual professional background/interest. At least he's never been there.

"Your current anguish is not knowing what you are going to do. Remove your dearest darling wife's inability to choose from the picture for a minute."

Okay. That's getting easier for me to do lately.

"Your choice is ..... ???? Make this simple by reducing choices to the most common denominator, like a math problem."

Like above. 2 choices. Staying or going. I'm making it a big deal because of my fears of the unknown. Fears that are diminishing somewhat by the minute. I can feel it.

At least you didn't &clubs me!

-Qfwfq.

SS:

"The word work implies doing things that may be difficult. Like learning to discuss feelings without anger. Exploring things that are painful."

I'm not sure that was the word she used.

"Is she really willing to work. Did you get that from your discussion?"

Maybe. But I didn't get a strong impression that that is the case.

&hearts
-Qfwfq

2TQ,
From reading it seems to come back to one or two things...

1~Your head and your heart are not on the same page, therefore your head is in a whirl, constantly analyzing... You think of reasons to be closer to a decision, then you think of all the reasons to postpone the decision.

If you decision IS based on all the upcoming events, then why not just make that decision and drop it for a while along with your expectations.

2~ Fear of the unknown.

Is one of these the least common denominator? Which do you think is greater?

S.

<small>[ February 27, 2003, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: Susan ]</small>

Susan:

"If you decision IS based on all the upcoming events, then why not just make that decision and drop it for a while along with your expectations."

Hm. Not sure I understand you. Should I make MY decision and keep it to myself? Or, should I POJA a decision NOW with my W, and play it out by some schedule?

" 2~ Fear of the unknown.

Is one of these the least common denominator? Which do you think is greater?"

I'm still confused. One of which? The decision and the fear? I think the fear is greater, if that's the question.

&hearts,
Qfwfq

Sorry I'm not making good sense. Maybe my brain needs a rest.

Plain and simple:
I suspect that it is fear of the unknown that keeps a lot of us stuck...when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road...

I've already had myself a nap today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but, I'll leave you in good hands now.
S.

Susan:

"I suspect that it is fear of the unknown that keeps a lot of us stuck...when it comes down to where the rubber meets the road..."

Too right!

♠
-Qfwfq

Well, we talked a bit more last night and this am. No big deals, really, but I started thinking (I know: "With what!!??").

When I got home, I did the dishes. My W and D got home shortly afterward, and my D and son were going to a movie. My W said we could go to dinner alone if I wanted. I said "that'd be nice" and picked the restaraunt. I was in a funk over her "lack of regret", and we didn't really talk about much but small talk. It was nice, though. Except that she brought up the idea of going out of state for a PhD again. I was supportive, as much as I could be, but I suggested she look locally and exhaust the possibilities here before looking elsewhere. I didn't say that I didn't like the idea that the state she's talking about is closer to RM than here, but I was sure thinking it. Bigger was the problem that this is just escapism. She's talked about "taking a vacation" from me and the kids, AND RM, to "be alone to think." Well, I've become a pessimist about this concept, and came up with the phrase "Sometimes, absence makes the heart grow fonder of the absence" as a result of this thinking. But really, it is avoidance of acceptance of responsibility for her A and facing the consequences of that A (broke up RM's family, may still break up ours). If she goes away for years to school, I will wish her well and help as much as I can and is reasonable, but I won't wait for her. If, on the other hand, she faces and understands her responsibilities, AND we agree to NC with RM until protons start to decay in massive numbers, then I'll wait for her for however long or however far away she may need to go for her PhD!

When we got home, we watched TV in the apartment without the kids. She laid down on the couch, so I sat in the chair. A bit later, she asked me if I wanted to sit on the couch, so I did and she snuggled with me while we watched TV. At one point, I said to her "You don't have to feel any pressure at all, and you can say no, but would you like to have SF tonight?" And she didn't answer at all, so I dropped it.

After the show we were watching was over, we decided to go back to the house and hit the sack. She asked if I was going to turn on the TV, expecting me to do so, so I did (but I would have rather just snuggled or talked), and she started to fall asleep. Woke up a couple of times to listen to the weather report with me, but that was about it. When the weather was over, I turned off the TV and read a magazine for a while to distract me from "relationship thought" and that helped. But I woke up around midnight from a bad dream. Woke her up, too. Gad, I hate those. I dreamed we had been apart for several years after the first A with RM, and that she was wanting to come home now, and I was all rubbery and wanting nothing more than to have her back. Some friends/family were around when we were talking, and they were all saying to me "Walk away! She's never going to change! It'll start right back up again!" She asked me what I was thinking, and I didn't respond. Then she asked me if I didn't say anything because I didn't want to talk about it, and I said "yes." It WAS sort of "here's a dose of your own medicine", but it wasn't really malicious. More like "if you want to be a part of my inner self, you're going to have to reciprocate when I ask you something personal."

We did talk a little, mostly small stuff, and we hugged and held hands, which I still enjoy with her very much. This am, I turned on the tube for the weather again, and we held each other wordlessly some more. We talked about stories on the news, mainly. At one point, after she'd gotten up and got dressed (she's doing that in the other room more now) she laid down next to me and gave me one of those "looks" of hers that always melts me. I held her for a bit, and she headed off to work.

I thought about this, and my posts and responses from this thread, on my way in to work this morning. What are my choices? Go or stay. When do I make them? Hm... Well, I think I should make them NOW if this is who she is and it's really true that she'll never change and our M will never be as close as it could/should be or RM will always be her "friend". But I don't think that's the case. I believe she's still very confused right now. I believe that someday she may be able to deal with her responsibilities and face the consequences of her past choices. I'm not sure when she will, but I believe that I can stay, open up the channels of communication more and more all the time, and wait to see what she decides she wants to do, find out who she is, without having to go to plan B.

♣ me all you want with that MB 2x4! ;o)

♥ Qfwfq