</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">&#9827; me all you want with that MB 2x4! ;o)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not you I want to ♣ it is that dearest wife of yours.

SuSAN

Susan:

I realized I left something out. My main reason for not "believing" that she really has no regrets stems from what she said to me last May/June, when we went to her out of state property by ourselves. Summary:

We left on a Monday morning. Stopped by her work so she could drop stuff off for her coworkers. I went to get lunch while she was inside. When she came out, she was quiet, but I didn't think anything of it. 2days later, at the house, she told me that her coworker (that knows) told her that Mrs Meat had found out about the A and thrown RM out on his @$$. The coworker thought it was funny, but held my W when she started crying. At the house, my W had been reading an email from RM describing what had happened. She didn't show it to me, but she told me about it. I didn't laugh, I just held her and comforted her. She said "How did I manage to destroy so many people's lives?" and I don't remember what I said, but I was supportive of her. Later she said "Thank you for sticking by me."

Like many other fog-clearing incidents over the past year, this one socked back in pretty soon afterwards. I sometimes wonder now whether if I were to keep the lines of communication wide open (including heavy R-talk), would we have gotten to a point of starting recovery long before now? I'll never know, I guess. But I'm going to do that now, you can be gol darned sure! I've got nothing to "lose." My M was over years ago. There's no time like NOW to find out if we have one together for the future. Running away from our responsibilities or fears, or avoiding getting our hands dirty are NOT options.

Anyway, I realized that my decision not to make a M-busting decision now was based on that memory. My W is still out there somewhere.

♠ Qfwfq

<small>[ February 28, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

I was thinking about you this morning as I waited for my own lovely W. I kind of thought I would post along these lines ( your quote below) but you saved me the trouble. You are already there.

I thought about this, and my posts and responses from this thread, on my way in to work this morning. What are my choices? Go or stay. When do I make them? Hm... Well, I think I should make them NOW if this is who she is and it's really true that she'll never change and our M will never be as close as it could/should be or RM will always be her "friend". But I don't think that's the case. I believe she's still very confused right now. I believe that someday she may be able to deal with her responsibilities and face the consequences of her past choices. I'm not sure when she will, but I believe that I can stay, open up the channels of communication more and more all the time, and wait to see what she decides she wants to do, find out who she is, without having to go to plan B.
Lets see if I can contribute as well as agree with you. From all you have said, I really do believe she is still processing what happened. It looks like she is trying to convince herself that what she did was not wrong, just not usually accepted my most people. I don't think the feelings she has will go away until she faces up to what she did. I hope she can and will.

It looks like from your next post, you agree.
Like many other fog-clearing incidents over the past year, this one socked back in pretty soon afterwards. I sometimes wonder now whether if I were to keep the lines of communication wide open (including heavy R-talk), would we have gotten to a point of starting recovery long before now? I'll never know, I guess. But I'm going to do that now, you can be gol darned sure! I've got nothing to "lose." My M was over years ago. There's no time like NOW to find out if we have one together for the future. Running away from our responsibilities or fears, or avoiding getting our hands dirty are NOT options.
It's almost like she is telling herself over and over that it was OK, that she just has a different value system and that she did nothing wrong, and all this so that she won' t have to face up to it. Peoples lives are messed up, it does affect others. It's not as simple as "well, I'm OK with it so everyone else should be too."

I wonder about her comment on religion and this site. Most Christian religions are vocal in saying that some things are wrong, and that there really is a wrong, and right. She seems to be saying that there is no wrong or right, just different, and that she is different. I don't think she really believes it but she is trying very hard to do so.

Peppers choices thread is very apt.
Does she know you can live with her past choices, it's the future ones you are most worried about now? Does she understand that? I should have put that differently. It seems as though her future choices will determine if you can live with her past ones.

You tell her that you are hurt by her choices and she says " well, you hurt me too, so we are even." At least words to that effect.
However your message now is that after you found that you hurt her, you began to do all you could to make that right. She is not, she is stalled claiming mutual hurt and it seems that she leaves it at that with no plan to move foreword.

Further, I don't think she realizes that SF is one way she has to ease your hurt, and bring you close to her. It's almost as if she is saying that she doesn't need to make you feel better because it shouldn't have hurt to begin with. It's your problem, not her's.

I heard a quote once something like this:
"Why is it that people refuse to give up those very things, which if clung to, will destroy them."
Sometimes our ideas and our position on things can do that to us. I have surely given up a great many of my "sacred cows" this last year, and I find that I am safer now than I was then, but it was uncomfortable at the time.

I am just kind of restating how I see your position in my own words, but I hope perhaps it may give you an opening to discuss things a little further.

My W and I have had many similar conversations and she disagreed with me sometimes very violently. ( verbally, not physically) She got angry when I suggested she hurt me as much as I hurt her, just in different ways. It does take time. The deeper the hurt, the more time. I still think you are going the right way with it. I hope it gets better. ( and I still pray for your happiness.)

SS

SS:

"Does she know you can live with her past choices, it's the future ones you are most worried about now?"

Very good question, one that I haven't even been able to formulate myself. I don't believe she knows I can live with her past choices, but I do believe that she thinks it should be a given that I live with her future ones. Make sense?

"Does she understand that? I should have put that differently. It seems as though her future choices will determine if you can live with her past ones."

Her current choices, too. Her future choices I can deal with, so long as the appropriate choices that need to be made NOW are made soon.

"You tell her that you are hurt by her choices and she says " well, you hurt me too, so we are even." At least words to that effect."

I think so, though I never thought to put it that way.

"However your message now is that after you found that you hurt her, you began to do all you could to make that right. She is not, she is stalled claiming mutual hurt and it seems that she leaves it at that with no plan to move foreword."

No real plan, that is. This is where I feel bad for not bringing up NC during that convo where we "agreed" to find out if we have a future together. I felt bad because I did not express a very strong feeling of mine.

"Further, I don't think she realizes that SF is one way she has to ease your hurt, and bring you close to her. It's almost as if she is saying that she doesn't need to make you feel better because it shouldn't have hurt to begin with. It's your problem, not her's."

You've done an excellent job of putting into words my unease with this. I couldn't figure it out. I kept thinking things like "she's doing this so that RM and I will be on an equal footing." But that doesn't make sense if she really intends to uphold her promise of being sexually faithful to me. But I think you've got it. I doubt she realizes it any more than I did. Thanks.

"I heard a quote once something like this:
"Why is it that people refuse to give up those very things, which if clung to, will destroy them.""

That's an excellent quote!

"Sometimes our ideas and our position on things can do that to us. I have surely given up a great many of my "sacred cows" this last year, and I find that I am safer now than I was then, but it was uncomfortable at the time."

I'll think about this some. I'm not sure I have done this, or even if I need to. And there may be a problem that I need to identify and deal with somewhere that I haven't noticed or been told about.

"I am just kind of restating how I see your position in my own words, but I hope perhaps it may give you an opening to discuss things a little further."

You've given me some good ideas for exploration.

"It does take time. The deeper the hurt, the more time. I still think you are going the right way with it. I hope it gets better. ( and I still pray for your happiness."

It has to get better, SS. Like I said, not hunkering down and figuring our $h!+ out is NOT an option, regardless of what the outcome is.

♥ Qfwfq

It's too soon to get my hopes up, but:

My W may be getting a job offer from a former boss at her present company. I don't know if that's what the lunch today was about, and all she could say (from work) was that it was interesting, but if she did, she wouldn't "need" to communicate with RM anymore.

I can hope. I won't expect.

♥ Qfwfq

You've got my hopes up!

Sometimes we need a break and we get it. Hope this is yours.

Ss

copy from other thread:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't take the [order], you'll kill yourse..." (parody of a public service ad, if you don't get it in your area, I didn't want to alarm you).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HUH???? can you explain that please?

I don't know anything about Mac's and I'm way to old to learn.

Susan:

It's one of those annoying public service ads about alchohol. The H and W are arguing about his drinking, and the H gets mad and says he's leaving. As he staggers out to the car, the W yells: "Don't take the car, you'll kill yourse..." it ends with her face frozen mid-word. Annoying as hell (even though the message is a good one.

Then there's the "this is your brain on drugs" ad. You've GOT to have seen that one! SNL did a parody of it that goes:

Gal holds up an egg: "This is your brain"
Gal cracks egg and puts it in hot frying pan, so it's boiling right away: "This is your brain on drugs."
[here's where it differs] Gal takes spatula, scoops up fried egg, puts it on toast: "This is your brain on rye."
Gal takes bite of sandwich: "Any questions?"

I still crack up. But then, I've got that revolting sense of humor that's kept me alive for over a year now since D-day!

♥ Qfwfq

and HOW does this compare to my computer? You can tell I don't watch a lotta tv... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Susan:

Well, okay maybe it doesn't fit all that well. But I'd already used my sarcastic reply to the Dell ad to someone else on the forum:

Dell ad: "Wow, you got a Dell!"
Qfwfq: "Oh, I'm SO SORRY!"

♠
-Qfwfq

SS:

It was nothing. Not a better job. So, she's going to be in professional contact with RM through October, so far as I know.

-Qfwfq

Happy (early) birthday buddy! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey, what's wrong with a Dell BTW? I have a Dell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jen

<small>[ March 03, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen:

Thanks! I just found out that Giovanni Schiaparelli was born on this day, too! He's a hero of mine!

Nothing wrong with a Dell. I just feel that, as a Mac person, it's my genetic imperative to "pick on" the "other side."

But I have 3 PCs at home... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
♥ Qfwfq

I see you going around helping lots of people but you haven't said much about you. ( yeah, shy, I know.)

You OK? Better than OK?
Hang over from the 50th party?

SS

SS:

Thanks for asking. I think a bit better than okay would be my take.

We had SF the other morning, no big production, but she wanted to, so that was nice. We've not talked heavy stuff much since Sunday (I know, what were we doing talking heaviosity stuff on my B-day party day!?), but I think we're enjoying each other's company.

I owe you 18 bucks for the book. It is a bit heavy on the religious stuff, but I'll read through it anyway for perspective. email me your home address, and I'll vulcanize you a check. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

♥Qfwfq

Qfwfq:

I know it's a bit heavy but I thought you could get some good from it anyway. I wondered about that when I sent it, but I thought " hey, he can always toss it if he doesn't like it."

Don't you know that federal law says when someone sends you something unsolicited in the mail you don't have to pay for it?

Or if that doesn't work, Happy birthday. ( you do accept gifts, don't you?)

If you don't like it, or it it's too heavy, tell me that. I need feedback or I can't help as effectively - you won't hurt my feelings any if you don't finish it. . ( My W is about the only one that can hurt my feelings any more.)

Mostly I felt you would identify with the thoughts on what SF means to your emotions, not just that it feels good. Or maybe it's that it feels good in more ways than one, and that is very important to the health of a marriage. There is also one place with a story about a gal that is so stressed than she has no desire for SF. I thought with all your W has going on ( with the home and with work) that she might fit that description and there is a way to deal with that. I can't remember what chapter it's in.

Glad you are better than OK, not that I worry. ( OK, I admit I do worry, but don't tell anyone.)

SS

PS - thinking..........thinking........Lets See, SF........Birthday....... She asked for it.
If she didn't love you she would not have done that for you. Do you realize that she just said "I love you" but she chose another way to say it? Are you getting that?

<small>[ March 06, 2003, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

"Don't you know that federal law says when someone sends you something unsolicited in the mail you don't have to pay for it?"

Wouldn't want to tweak the Fed's gain knob!

"Or if that doesn't work, Happy birthday. ( you do accept gifts, don't you?)"

Yep. Thanques!

"If you don't like it, or it it's too heavy, tell me that. I need feedback or I can't help as effectively - you won't hurt my feelings any if you don't finish it. . ( My W is about the only one that can hurt my feelings any more.)"

Okay, I'll let you know.

"I thought with all your W has going on ( with the home and with work) that she might fit that description and there is a way to deal with that. I can't remember what chapter it's in."

I think you have something there. I'll look it up.

"Glad you are better than OK, not that I worry. ( OK, I admit I do worry, but don't tell anyone.)"

It won't get out, I promise!

"PS - thinking..........thinking........Lets See, SF........Birthday....... She asked for it."

It WAS on my birthday, now that you mention it!

"If she didn't love you she would not have done that for you. Do you realize that she just said "I love you" but she chose another way to say it? Are you getting that?"

Yes. Even when she just holds my hand while watching TV (without lubricants, Pepper! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

I learned a lot of patience this week.

♥Qfwfq

Q:
I learned a lot of patience this week.

For some reason that......um, well, bothers me. But you did say you were OK, or perhaps better than. Should I leave it alone?

SS

SS:

No, it shouldn't bother you. It does NOT mean I'm resting on my laurels (any more than the stress around us requires).

I think I posted on one of these threads (maybe more than one?) that I have been realizing a lot of what my W says that sounds negative to me is clearly a difference in ways to describe things. The "regret" and "consequences" discussion, as an important example. Even if she's not "there" or "on the same page" as me regarding processing the A, she's clearly making progress herself. It's a beautiful thing to behold. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But I'm not going to push it. I WILL keep it from stagnating, though. A delicate balance.

But that's what I meant by "learning patience." Like JL said a year ago: This A lasted a long time, it's going to take a long time to recover. When I can get over that fact (and I've seen enough slow progress to recognize it's probably fact) and view this process as objectively as I can, I can start to enjoy the NOW a lot more easily.

No matter what happens, a couple of human beings are going to come out at the end of this process.

♥Qfwfq

Q:
I wasn't afraid you were resting, I was afraid something bad happened and you were having to deal with it.

I have always believed you would be Ok and do well with this process. I don't know if it ever finishes, but one day I was able to say, "Hey, we are actually doing pretty good now!"

SS