LOL a professional Lurking ABout is good old sad-n-lonely!

Space,

My first and only concern right now would be my children. She could do whatever, she would have to suffer the consequences. Your children are innocent victims that are at risk with such a vile creature ensconced in their Mother's life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He asks her to put on her shortest miniskirt and tightest low-cut blouse and go see some guy who's supposed to give him some money for an appeal..."show him your t..s if you have to, but we NEED this!"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Having read this makes me fearful for your daughter. Because, there is a chance that your daughter could be asked to do this very kind of thing too. Your wife is using insane judgment. I know that you say that she has been a wonderful mother, but that can change in the blink of an eye. (Especially since she is under the influence of such an unscrupulous character.) Your daughter is a beautiful YOUNG woman. He would think that she would be more likely to get the task done rather than her Mother. If your WW thinks it's harmless, she might actually ask your daughter to do this. I just don't think that you can trust her 100% not to subject your kids to things of that nature.

Please share you concerns with your children. They need to know what evil has entered their home. (If not in body, then in influence). They need to be armed to deal with it. They also need to be with their Dad until their Mother is again using some sense. I think that you need to check into getting custody of the young ones yourself.

Please Note...This is JMHO...

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KalGrl:
<strong>LOL a professional Lurking ABout is good old sad-n-lonely!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">huh?????

No spacecase, I have no "professional" expertise in the areas mentioned. I do have an interest in cults though (no direct experience) and your circumstances have parallels, but who knows. Unless your wife is insane, then her behaviour is discernible, and identifiable. Since your efforts at logic and reason have failed heretofore, and since the facts would seem to support no scenario where this is a healthy choice for your wife, something else has to be at work. A rescuer acting singlemindedly (cult-like) fits the facts you have presented...if so, that dictates your strategy/options. Your circumstances are peculiar. If your w was simple disaffected with you, and the marriage didn't work for her, she could have become emotionally involved with lots of more appropriate prospects...that she chose this one suggests to me this isn't an affair at all, but a rescue mission...that might explain why she has been resistant to being dissuaded by affair type arguments. I don't know spacecase, this is so disturbing, just throwing out my 2 cents.

btw...nevermind kalgrl, I get accused of this from time to time for some reason, apparently I remind some people of some one with that user name.

<small>[ March 07, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Space,

This is a fast moving thread - and I'm a bit behind; so forgive me if someone else has already made this suggestion.

Given your teenagers ages - they are perfectly capable of gathering information and making their own decisions regarding life. It is critical that their relationship with their mother be preserved in the best possible way. Reason I'm not mentioning you in the preserving sentence is that YOU are not behaving in a way that is of any threat to any members of your family.

Unfortunately your w could be. Teenagers are big into empowerment. It is important as they go through this transition as members of your family that they aren't put in the awkward position of your wife "bad" & you "good".

They equally need their mother and father. So my suggestion is this. Family counseling with the RIGHT individual. This individual will help all of you maneuver through the minefield of what lies ahead.

You will be removed from the position of trying to decide what to say, who to say it to, and when to say it. This will all be dictated by the family counselor who will have all the individuals within your family, best interests at heart.

The empowerment for your children is that they will be encouraged to love their mother unconditionally, knowing at the same time that she is not immune from making stupid choices that affect every member of your family. The counselor will guide them in the way they deal with their mother, as well as help them deal with the tremendous feelings they are going to have as a result of your situation.

Best of all, if wierd stuff starts to happen, hopefully they will have such a position of trust in that counselor by then - they can get advice without putting you in the middle.

You can't be the bad guy, telling, doing, or otherwise, if you're getting expert advice on what is the best to do in all situations that protect every member of your family.

Point being, IMHO you're simply one of the five members of the family that's trying to do the best they can so that no one individual is hurt. I think you'll need the counsel of an independent advisor that can help guide you through the process.

In your W's state of mind, my concern is that she will unintentionally make you the bad guy when she sees her world start to crumble as all the secrets become public knowledge. Because you know, what she's doing will not remain a secret forever. Somehow someway it will all come out.

Blessings to you. I send peace your way. CSue

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
<strong>No spacecase, I have no "professional" expertise in the areas mentioned. I do have an interest in cults though (no direct experience) and your circumstances have parallels, but who knows. Unless your wife is insane, then her behaviour is discernible, and identifiable. Since your efforts at logic and reason have failed heretofore, and since the facts would seem to support no scenario where this is a healthy choice for your wife, something else has to be at work. A rescuer acting singlemindedly (cult-like) fits the facts you have presented...if so, that dictates your strategy/options. Your circumstances are peculiar. If your w was simple disaffected with you, and the marriage didn't work for her, she could have become emotionally involved with lots of more appropriate prospects...that she chose this one suggests to me this isn't an affair at all, but a rescue mission...that might explain why she has been resistant to being dissuaded by affair type arguments. I don't know spacecase, this is so disturbing, just throwing out my 2 cents.

btw...nevermind kalgrl, I get accused of this from time to time for some reason, apparently I remind some people of some one with that user name.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you make a very valid point, LA; my W has, indeed, all along always said that this "relationship" is nothing, is meaningless, which has consistently been at odds with the "evidence" of letters, calls, visits, etc. which clearly point to something else.
However, as you point out, she could certainly have found a much more "appropriate" candidate for "love" if that is what she was after, and this scenario you suggest certainly COULD be an explanation for her apparently abberant and almost incomprehensible behavior.

I'll look into it...not sure HOW yet, but I will.

<small>[ March 07, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Very sound advice, CSue. Very sound.
And that might perhaps be just the ticket so as to avoid these "me vs. you" problems so common to divorce.

And I've managed to pretty much avoid them (if not in my W's eyes), but certainly in all her family's eyes...as they've slowly started to find out, they have been amazed...speechless and perplexed. Not only at what she's doing, but perhaps more at the way I have been acting and behaving towards her, and the civility with which all this has been handled up to now. So much so that they didn't have a clue we've been going through this for over a year and a half.

Blessings!

Space,

Clarifying a couple of things about my post to you. I am concerned that I might have put you off with my comments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

I am a strong advocate of NOT putting the chidren in the middle. Nor do I ever think that children should be made to decide which parent is the good parent and which one is the bad parent. CSue's advice is wonderful and it should be the rule of thumb...here comes the "but"....

BUT, when the children are being exposed to potentially dangerous people (and possibly illegal activity) that rule is out the window. A simple "Mom isn't thinking clearly right now so we have to (fill in the blank)" should suffice. The children that are at the greatest risk, are the ones that are not informed.

If you think that something is going on then it is up to you to protect your children.

Again, I just wanted to clarify. If there is something in my post upsetting to you, give me a heads up and I will edit or better yet, delete the entire thing.

Committed

Commited;
No qualms at all about your post!
I fully agree with you.

Perhaps I responded to the others because they offered alternatives I'd not thought of or considered, but undoubtedly, regardless of what the consequences may be for me or my relationship with my ex or her family, I know I have to protect the kids, and I will!

Thanks!

<small>[ March 07, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Space,

I am sure that you will protect your kids at all costs.

Stand solid and firm. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

committed

Any healthcare professionals out there who can guide me here? what might that type of "cult-like protector behavior" be called? any particular disorders of this type I can look up, find out about? Maybe something like the "need to be needed"? I have no idea whare to start...

LurkingAbout;
Can you point me to some of the "cult" stuff you felt resonated with my W's story?
Thanks!

On another thread, we'd posted an article called "The Faces of Victim" which discusses the 3 positions we play on the triangle (Victim, Persecutor and Savior), which I believe accurately describes these postures we take on all the time.

The Faces of Victim

Here are some of the "Payoffs" and "Traits" I found for those "tirnagular" postures. Maybe these help clarify some of these positions we get ourselves into? Maybe it sheds light on what we tend to do when we play these roles? maybe it'll help us understand ourselves and each other some?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The Payoffs Of The Victim, Savior, And Persecutor In All Triangulations

The Victim's Payoff

You're the one responsible for what happens to me.
I'll never succeed at anything. Why try?
I'm a failure because of my Mom and Dad. It's their fault I'll never get it.
You cause my pain and suffering.
I blame you for my suffering.
I'll never "get it".
I have a right to be afraid. Who do you think you are to tell me to be brave!
I deserve your sympathy. Look what "they" have done to me.
I'm no good.
You're damn right I feel sorry for myself. You would, too, if you knew what I've been through.
I can't.
It's not fair.
I need help - I can't do it myself.
I'm not enough.
Why shouldn't I complain! Would you like to be in my shoes?
Every time I speak up for myself, you put me down. My thoughts/feelings don't mean anything to you.
Nobody ever gave me a chance.
Mom and Dad loved my sister/brother more. That's why I'm the way I am. It's not my fault!
See? I told you I couldn't do it.
Oh, poooor me.
I always have to do it!
I don't have to change. You're the one with the problem!
You're going to give me a heart attack.
Just as long as you're happy, it doesn't matter what happens to me.
You said you'd love me forever.
I never have enough time for myself. There is always something I have to do for you. (A long, suffering sigh)
I have no choice; I have to take care of my parents now that they are old.
You always make me worry about you. Why don't you just behave?
I make all the sacrifices in this family.
Where did I go wrong?

The Savior's Payoff

If I help you, you won't be able to hate me.
Look at me, I'm better than you.
It feels sooo good to rescue.
When I jump in and protect or save you, you'll depend upon me.
Look how important I am - I've rescued you.
I'm powerful when I can figure out how to save a bad situation.
When I'm busy with your problems, I don't have time to worry about mine.
I love the adoration you give me when I help you.
I'm better than you when I can rescue you from your problems.
I'm superior and holier than you because I can "fix" your problems.
I make a difference because I know how to solve problems.
I put everything else on hold while I solve your problems.
My parents are old, and I'm dedicating my life to them.
I'm such a good guy. Look how I got you out of that scrape.
All this attention really feels great.
Let me do it. I know how to do it right.
I was born to help others. It's no big thing.
I know I make a difference.
You can't get through this without me.
I will always come when you call.
Aren't you impressed?
Now will you approve of me?
I told you once, but you just wouldn't listen to me. See, I was right all along.
You owe me your love because I saved you. Where would you be without me?
I'm really good at helping others. It's just a knack I have.
I have all the answers.

The Persecutor's Payoff

I'll make you sorry you ever did that. Then you'll think twice before you ever do that again.
I always have to watch you to make sure you do it right.
Do as I say, not as I do.
I wash my hands of you. You'll never get it.
You are so stubborn. Why did God saddle me with you!
You deserve this whipping! You must be shown right from wrong.
Things were different in my day. Children respected their mother/father.
Don't lie. I know you're lying. You never tell the truth.
Stand up. You act like you have something to hide.
You asked for it. Now you are going to get it.
You're such a fool. Don't you get it? This is part of your karmic debt.
Be like your sister. She knows what she wants and goes out and gets it.
Quit your crying or I'll give you something to cry about!
Look at me when I speak to you. Speak up. Stand up straight.
How do you expect me to take you anyplace?
You're so sloppy
You're so dumb/stupid
You're just like your father/mother/sister/brother.
Don't you dare walk away from me.
Why do you make me hit you?
You'll just never know how much I've given up for you so you could be happy.
I didn't want you in the first place!
What's wrong with you?
You're not enough.
You should…
I'm so disappointed in you.
I thought you were better than that.
What have I taught you? You know better than that!
Why do you look like that? Do you want to embarrass me?
You'll make your mother sick/cry.
I don't care what you want - you do what I say!
What makes you think you know anything?
It serves you right. You didn't listen to me.
You're the one with the problem. How dare you expect me to change!
If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times!
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk…

Personality Traits of Victim, Persecutor, and Savior

Victim
Helpless
Hopeless
Complaining
Denial of responsibility
Blaming
Dependent
Whining
Reliant

Persecutor
Intimidating
Caustic
Vicious
Poisonous
Degrading
Demeaning
Bullying
Nasty
Condemning
Controlling
Manipulative

Savior
Pompous
Superior
Know It All
Righteous
Holier Than Thou
Contemptuous
Demanding
Condescending
Arrogant
Self-important
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ March 08, 2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Space ... I disagree with lurking's analysis.

If you would like to discuss this with me via email, feel free.

Take care.

Pepper

Thanks, Pep. You have mail! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

well, not an analysis, just a possible explanation, something is obviously seriously awry, this is aberant behaviour.

As for your question spacecase about resources to validate/reject this scenario you would need to seek out psychologists who work with cult survivors, they can more clearly identify behaviour whereby someone gives control over themself to another, and how to intervene. There are also (like everything else) literature on these issues you can seek out. But I would caution diagnosing without professional review.

what "resonated" is the single minded determination to be a "part" of this dysfunctional "group" (even if the group is just 1 man, it always starts with one master, who recruits the first follower). This clearly serves no discernible benefit to your w, baffles everyone that knows her, evidences signifgicant personality changes, and does not respond to reason. An affair can look like that too, but the difference is there is no payoff for your wife, affairs generally require some kind of reglar "fix". The issue is really whether your wife has given up her self-will and is directed by this man...call it an affair, or cult-like makes no difference what label..the point is to understand motivation and how to intervene if your wife has been "recruited".

While we generally think of cults as religious, religion has nothing to do with it. A cult is about personality, whereby an individual gains control over others self-will using whatever weakness they have. If your wife is the rescuer type, that was his entry, the payoff for your wife. People regularly call affairs addictions, well I guess under extreme conditions an affair can become cult like as well. This would be consistent with you w protestations that it is not an affair, that allows her to quiet the conscience/rational voices inside her. By accusing her of something that is not true (to her) your arguments are rendered ineffectual. This is exactly what happens with people in cults.

In any event, I have no idea what your w actual problem is, but seems prudent to leave no stone unturned. I am curious about other explanations as well, maybe pepper will post her thoughts.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Thanks LurkingAbout. I appreciate your assessment, and clearly take it as an "idea" to explore rather than a disgnosis.

But one thing that's happened as I've been reading this thread lately, is that many apparent "incongruencies" have come back to me or have been remembered.

Ever since this began there have been "things", "events", "things she has said", that somehow don't quite make sense, don't quite "mesh" with some of the "evidence", or with some of what we've dicussed here as "typical" WS behavior...and this has always bothered me.

If you've followed my threads at all, you'll recall several times when I have pursued different ideas like yours just to explore, to see if maybe there's more to it thatn just an A...

Nothing has quite all "fit in" up to now, though, so, as always, I will attempt to exhaust any and all paths if they may hold some key or insight or possibility.

Thanks to all!

Well folks,
Just a quick note for the Bay Area crowd; I'll be in town this weekend for my HS reunion, and would love to find time to chat/meet/have a coffee...maybe Saturday or Sunday during the morning/early afternoon...my email's below!

HS reunion?!?!?! Here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Didn't know you were an SV Boy!!!

I will send Redhat an e-mail tomorrow. Maybe he can hook up with you.

L.

<small>[ March 28, 2003, 02:40 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>