I am very hesitant to keep seeking advice here. I can't do plan B. I just don't have it in me. When I last saw my H, I was torn between what I wanted to do, what he wanted, and what I should do based on MB methods and advice. I want to remain in contact with him. I just don't want to deal with his late night phone calls. We need to talk to each other about important things in person. I've learned that.

So anyway, I asked my H what he needs. I went and visited him a couple days ago and I certainly was not the model of patience and Plan A perfection. I was a persistant pest at times, and a cry baby too. I had to ask him several times what he needs and/or wants from me. He really didn't seem to know. Then finally he said he needs time to deal with the loss of his father before he can deal with us. He said he calls me and asks me if I want to come over to have sex b/c he needs me, but it's really hard for him to just say that. I tried to make it very clear how much his treatment of me hurts me. I tried to make it very clear that my "high-falootin'" attitude is simply me trying to look out for myself and not be a doormat. One thing he said, that I somehow really was glad to hear, was that he just wished none of this mess had ever happened, that we were just still together.

Somehow, when I'm off in my own little world, my pain seems HUGE. When I talked to my H, I realize that my pain is no where near as huge as his. His world was destoyed when I cheated on him. Now without his father around, he's been decimated. This is one lost and weary man. I almost feel like a selfish @#$%& pleading for immediate better treatment of me.

He's the only man I've ever loved, he was/is my soulmate, and I just want to be with him again, and be loved by him again. I am so tired of hearing from friends (including MB friends) and family how I shouldn't wait forever, how I should maybe leave him and move on. I know they are trying to have my best interests at heart, but I'm getting really tired of having to explain to people that I still love him and want to be with him, and want to wait for him some more still.

I don't really have any questions today, maybe other than how can I remain patient? Is there any thing I can do to be good at being patient? How do those of you who stuck it out for way longer than 9 months keep at it?

Is there anyone out there that lived apart from their spouse for that long or longer and then got back together?

It's just another sad and lonely Sunday I guess.

Jen

<small>[ March 09, 2003, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,

You have uncovered and both your and your H have come to a turning point. All that has transpired between the 2 of you these past few months is finally reached the leve of communication.

Hon, plan B is because we can no longer take the effects of plan A. But it is has to be something we are emotionally ready to do. If we are not then, we must still be in plan A and often it is with the pain.

You'd be surprised how high the plan A tolerance is here for many. Even with yourself. So when you felt you just couldn't do it anymore, you really didn't know that deep inside you were not ready to give up because you couldn't go to plan B.

Jen, IMHO you should step back and review what you wrote. I personally see something to be very happy about. You and your H made progress several steps that may now make it easier to work towards your individual personal recovery.

You now know why he makes those calls late at night. Why he may have feigned those attitudes. His odd way of asking for help.

You know what? Mine did similar. Can't say I understand it at all times but I did become aware of it and it took a long while. Mine couldn't explain why he acts that way and he is the WS. ..... Go figure.

NOw about the patience thingy....well that was hard for me also. Still is but I am getting better at it.

Sorry about the long post. Just wanted to let you know we are here if you need. Remember we only know of your situation based on what you post. Sometimes feelings speak stronger than reality.

I see all this with more clarity and actually something good. Remember marital recovery is still a ways off (not gone just not attainable in the immediate future). Personal recovery for both of you is definitely within your reach.

REsolve to be happy with this info for now and set some reasonable goals for the future.

take care,
L.

Jen,

I never had to plan B although the world screamed I should. I separated on and off from my husband many times for varying periods. No one can tell you how to go on or feel better or when to give up. I never gave up on my husband...I waivered as you do constantly. I know our situations are different but in reality we have so many similarities.
I read what you write and I connect with what you are saying. There are times when I have felt great anger and resentment towards my husband but there are just as many times, if not more, when I can't breath without him. We know each other better than anyone else...we have loved each other more than anyone else...we have hurt each other more than anyone else. I see you and your husband doing the same.
I differ in that I did not consciously seek out a healthy way to deal with our issues for years. MB makes sense on alot of levels but relationships are so complicated there is no perfect formula.

I have had anger towards your husband because he does not see what we see...the changes in you. He treats you badly at times and being that the whole scenario is from your perspective I see clearly the pain you suffer. Funny that me a BS sometimes forgets his pain. I guess that is because I deal with the infidelity in my relationship differently...I feel so guilty...I feel like I made my husband's life miserable. I fluctuate with being mad at him to hating myself...mostly hating myself these days.
I don't know how much good I have done for you but I know I continue to learn more about my own relationship from you. Thanks for sharing...I hope you find some support and comfort as I wish the best always.

ayslyne

<small>[ March 02, 2003, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: ayslyne ]</small>

Jen ... This is going to smart a little bit ... let me give you a (((HUG))) first .... then ...

What do you enjoy about this drama Jen? You really do have a taste for it. You keep ordering it on the menu. You must like it. You ask your H "What do you want?" or "What do you need?" multiple times. Then, after he makes it clear to you he doesn't know..... you keep asking..... or crying .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Might as well hold up a sign that reads: "Will beg for drama"

Did you read Spacecase's thread THE TRUTH ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS? Page 2 ... Spacecase offers something called THE FACES OF VICTIM by Lynne Forrest. I'll bump the thread up to the top for you.

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

If you have to hit your head over and over again against the brick wall ... just to feel that good 'ole familiar pain ... just so you know you're alive .... then, be my guest. I think you have more to offer as a wife... but, you'd rather do the drama ... and that's a choice to be sure.

Pepper

PS .... Here'ds some ice for that lump on your head! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks Pepper, I've just printed that whole post off so I can give it a good read. You are probably right, playing the victim gives me sympathy and makes me feel right or something. It was just a couple of days ago that I told a friend of mine that I thought that was what my H was doing (playing the victim role until the end of time b/c it made him feel right). It's like we're both fighting to say, "But I'm the victim here." Really, we both are. What a demented pair we are I guess. We've always been competitive, but this is just sick.

I'll post again once I've had time to read and digest "The Faces of the Victim".

Jen

Hmm...that was one long read. Getting off the triangle sounds very difficult indeed.

My gut reaction is that my H has generall been a "rescuer" and I've generally been a "victim." Now I've been sort of moving into the Persecutor Role, hence my H calling me "high fallootin" because I'm looking out for myself and setting boundaries finally. But I keep sliding back into the victim role, I think. It IS easier to throw my hands up and say, "I don't know what to do! It's beyond me!"

This is so deep. It reinforces to me that my H and I BOTH need to go for counselling, together, to change the patterns of behaviour we've both become so engrained in. But since I can't force him to go for MC....I guess I just keep gently suggesting that he go for IC, or maybe MC if and when he's ready.

I'm not sure I feel like I have things any more figured out...this stuff is so deep. Thanks for getting me thinking Pepper and Spacecase!

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Jen ... The drama triangle particularly "hit home" for me when I think about all the drama with our son. Son, H and I would spin our way around the triangle ... trading places. My fav is the rescuer ... and in order to be there ... I need a victim .... hmmmmmm

what's wrong with this picture????

^
sorry, will post more.

Jen

Hello

Im off to the doctor shortly.

Let me just add this. Your H was going through the anger stage of losing his marriage which is is part of grieving, now he is going through the grieving due to the death of his father. Can you imagine the pain of both of these. It's not an excuse to be hateful to you but if you keep after him in this way, it will get worse. Leave him be. Let him gather his senses. He is grieving the loss of his marriage and his father. While your H is no saint and has done many hateful things to you, alot of which I would I would of walked away from long ago, still you choose to be with him and if you choose this, then you have to accept this is his state of mind.

You know Zach put me through some bad times, lots of punishment and all but he didn't do what your H did and what you H has done to you is degrade you to the lowest level. No one deserves that regardless what they have done. Your H needs a ton of help. We have dicussed this before. He needs professional help. He cannot repair his marriage if he insists on keeping his female friends around as tokens. That is a given. Since he is not willing to get rid of them and accept responsibility for his actions and wrong doings in the marriage there can be no recovery.

Your H really needs some help Jen. You can not be the one to give it to him. He needs to get help on his own. You can do MC together but your H needs individual help. There is alot going on in that mind of his. It helped Zach tremendously to get help, to attend the anger control classes, to go to MC with me. It really helped him. I think that was the saving grace for us when Zach admitted HE also was the problem and needed to get control of himself. We cannot minimize what we did as WS BUT in order to move forward and repair the marriage for which it took two to make and it took two to cause the problems, you need and your H needs, help. I know you are reaching out and you are doing good for YOU but your H needs help too.

Im sorry if this makes no sense. Im not well these days but I feel for you. I really do. You have helped me alot on some dark days.

Zoey

PS: Stop this craziness. It's not good for your health and peace of mind. You cannot change your H. He must take those steps himself.

Jen~~ Read the thread written by How? .... titled "Need some clarity" .... here on GQII.

A PERFECT picture of tiangular victim drama.

You can see Why in all 3 positions on this thread.

Go look. It's sooooo much easier to "see it" when it's not happening to us! LOL! This may help you (and myself) to be able to see ourselves when we play this game.

Pep

Thanks for the suggestion to read How?'s thread. Is it ever easier to see the movement around the triangle in action when it's not myself!

An eerie similarity with his sitch and mine....my H and I met in high school, were each other's firsts, probably got together so quickly and easily b/c I had low self-esteem and he knew that he could keep me (not to mention control me) b/c of it. I can recall him telling me several times back when we were just dating how there were several things wrong with me that he didn't know if he could live with, would let me believe he was considering breaking up with me, I'd beg and plead and ask for him to give me another chance, and he would. That song and dance happened a few times.

I remember an early session in IC, when my counselor was trying to get at why my H and I got together in the first place. Wide-eyed Jen said, "But isn't it possible that we ended up together because we FELL IN LOVE?" I was so knee deep in fog and pain that I couldn't begin to imagine that we had initially "clicked" because of things like me having a low-self esteem, and him being insecure and liking having someone who needed him so much. Now I'm beginning to see it. I think that's how we may have originally gotten together....not healthy I guess.

Then I got resentful of him not treating me as well as he once did, not meeting all of my needs, he got the same way, upset I wasn't treating him like my hero any more. So out he goes and gets at least one close female friend, to exercise with, etc. Then next I go have a non-sexual PA, then another, then he gets a second female friend on the go, and I go and have a full-blown PA with his best friend. There's two people going around the triangle too, eh? (Yes I'm Canadian!)

Heck, as I reread the above paragraphs, it's part of why I want to be with him now. I partly need him to feel good about myself, like I'm a worthwhile human being. I derived a lot of my self-worth from the fact that I was supposedly happily married, and well on my way to having a family, etc.

But isn't that why we all want to be with someone, because they make us feel good about ourselves?

I caught myself yesterday saying to myself that I just want him to love me again, that I miss having him love me.

I know I shouldn't derive my self-esteem from a man, but after so many years....it's hard to get out of the cycle, er triangle!

Pepper, let me know what you think of my analysis, your outsider's objectivity is very helpful here!

JEn

<small>[ March 03, 2003, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

(Sorry, this is so long)

Jen,
From what I&#8217;ve read you seem to have an uncanny resemblance to my W.
I don&#8217;t want to assume too much so I&#8217;ll just tell you my story and see if I hit some buttons.

She was not very popular in school and didn&#8217;t have many friends. Boys didn&#8217;t pay her much attention. She had only ever had 1 BF before me, which lasted about a week.
High school for her was hell. Suicide was a dominant thought before she met me.

I was part of the &#8220;in crowd&#8221;. Athletic jock, class clown etc. I had a lot of friends and girlfriends through my school years. I can&#8217;t even think of a time when I felt left out in school. Those years were the best for me, and I think that&#8217;s why I became so depressed when I moved to go to college.

She asked me out at a high school dance. To which I replied, &#8220;I&#8217;ll think about it&#8221;. My friends begged me not to go out with her. Later in the night I said yes.

She clung to me like a fly on s*&@. I could do the littlest thing and she would just melt. She began telling me she loved me before the week was out.
I was popular but I was also very insecure. I liked, no, needed this constant reassurance from her: this clinginess.
She became extremely jealous of every girl I had the slightest contact with. Many times she tried to use jealousy to stop me from going somewhere or doing something without her. She now describes it as being like a disease. An uncontrollable rage. She is much better now.
When we did have arguments, they always ended with her crying and saying how sorry she was.
Even if an argument started over something that I did wrong, all it would take was a little threat of me leaving, or something similar to get her crying and saying she was sorry. Then I could feel like the hero and make her feel better.
We replayed this vicious cycle over and over again.

That is one of the deepest regrets that I have in our relationship. That I took advantage of her in such a vulnerable state for my own selfish needs. I never respected her. How could respect someone that was so easy step on.

Eventually she became very tired of this routine. I could sense a change in her, but I didn&#8217;t really care to find out what it was. I was too busy being depressed and feeling sorry for myself. We had just moved and I was going to college. We had been together 4 years at this time.
All of a sudden she was no longer playing the crying, I&#8217;m sorry game. Or a least not as much. Sometimes it would take a day or two, or even longer before she came to me. You could feel the tension in the air. I would just do my thing and pretend to ignore her.

I started playing the game by myself and she started hating me. She wanted out and was ready to leave me. I was in denial, I couldn&#8217;t believe that she no longer needed me anymore. I was her reason for living, she always told me that. (Wow, how arrogant is that?)

The denial lasted until I read her diary one day. In it she stated how she didn&#8217;t love or want to be with me anymore. She was very confused and didn&#8217;t know what to do.

My world that I have been living in the last 4 years was suddenly turned upside down in time it took me to read this. I was still very insecure and I still needed the constant reassurance that I was the greatest.

Seeing that I was losing her, I immediately changed my tune. I snapped out of my self pitying thoughts and began trying to win her back.
What I didn&#8217;t know is she had met someone on the internet and they were talking quite a bit. They did meet and kiss once but nothing ever materialized out of it. He was a big geek, as she put it. Lucky for me he wasn&#8217;t prince charming.

I don&#8217;t think she wanted to leave me, she just had something to prove to herself. An attempt to gain some self respect. And it worked, she did have more self respect afterwards.

I&#8217;m going to stop this story here.
Writing this right now I feel like going and patting her on the back. Not because she had an A, but because she finally stood up for herself. She demanded to be treated differently and let me know that she wouldn&#8217;t just cry and say sorry anymore. That I can respect. Now anyways.
At the time I was just a blind fool (kinda like now) and eventually pushed her to another A.

Anyways, I do have just one question for you assuming that your relationship was something like mine.
Is your H able to look back, as I have done, and see how he controlled you?

I no longer need to be the hero in that way, haven&#8217;t for a few years now. We rarely ever argue anymore. I still have insecurities, but nothing close to what it used to be.

I don&#8217;t feel right giving advice. I can only tell you that my wife never truly became attractive to me until the clinginess stopped. I really started putting effort into us when she stopped begging and crying. I have respect for her now, where before there was none.

I look forward to your reply, eh. Oh ya, I forgot to mention I&#8217;m Canadian too. Maybe it's something in the water up here.
Regards,
Brad

<small>[ March 04, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: How? ]</small>

Well, I was a geek in junior high. I wasn't overly popular in high school either. I certainly wasn't part of the obnoxious and cruel but supposedly so cool "jocks and their sluts" circle at my high school. But I did have my own fairly good sized group of friends. I had a couple of boyfriends prior to my H. He had one GF prior to me. My H wasn't part of the cool crowd either, but he was one of those people who was sort of friends with people from all groups (including the cool crowd) and also had his own group of friends.

We started out as friends for a couple of months actually; we met trying to counsel a common friend who was struggling over a break-up. Then I sensed things getting closer, and I told him I just wanted to remain friends, that he wasn't my type. Well, then take one high school dance, and we started dating. Within a few weeks, we told each other we loved each other. Then he found out he had cancer. We thought we were going to lose each other after we had just found each other. He had surgery, they got it all, and so things went on. But I guess my point is that the cancer made us both cling to each other far faster than any typical couple may have.

I guess I was a lot like your wife in the beginning, often dumb enough to end arguments with me crying and apologizing even if he may have made the original error. But, this didn't last the full 12 years of our relationship.

By the time we got married, I think, I had changed already. As you say, I stopped playing the "crying, I’m sorry game." I became notorious for taking a long time to ever say "I'm sorry" about anything. Sometimes it took me more than a day to do so. I became conscious of the fact that it seemed like my H always thought I was wrong and that he didn't make mistakes. However, he was capable of apologizing to me when he was wrong, most of the time. I think it usually took him until the morning after any argument too though.

"I started playing the game by myself and she started hating me." ---- What do you mean by this? What kind of behaviour did you display that you think made her hate you?

"I don’t think she wanted to leave me, she just had something to prove to herself. An attempt to gain some self respect. And it worked, she did have more self respect afterwards." Hmm.. I wonder if that's a possible reason for my first affair...or any of my affairs for that matter. It would seem like my A's are like small rebellions to prove my independance, to break out of the my H as father, me as child routine.

"Is your H able to look back, as I have done, and see how he controlled you?" He won't admit to controlling me. He says he allowed me to do pretty much whatever I wanted whenever I wanted, and look what I went and did to him.

"I no longer need to be the hero in that way, haven’t for a few years now. We rarely ever argue anymore. I still have insecurities, but nothing close to what it used to be." My H has always needed to feel like a hero I think. Could have something to do with him being the oldest in a family of 5 boys - he was always the hero as a child too. Shortly after I was done treating him like a hero is when he found himself a female friend to babysit and look after (oh wait, he said it was to have someone to exercise with after work, but really, she was a bit of a reckloose who needed a friend, needed support, etc.).

"I don’t feel right giving advice. I can only tell you that my wife never truly became attractive to me until the clinginess stopped. I really started putting effort into us when she stopped begging and crying. I have respect for her now, where before there was none." ----- Well, now I do have a lot more self-respect. It's been evident in me telling him "no" and not being willing to just fly over to his house if he phones me and asks rude things like, "Wanna have sex?" But my H says things like (this was a particular phone message he left me last week)"When did you feel you got the right to set all the rules and act like you're all powerful and all mighty and your high fallootin' attitude, where'd you get that from, because you certainly don't deserve that attitude." So, I wouldn't say we're at the point where he's starting to respect me for having more self-respect and standing up for myself. He's noticing the changes, but there's still work to be done.

Thanks for sharing more details of your own story. It's really helping me to examine my situation from another angle. I'd appreciate any more thoughts you may have.

Now, I have just one question for you:
"I no longer need to be the hero in that way, haven’t for a few years now. We rarely ever argue anymore. I still have insecurities, but nothing close to what it used to be." ---- So why are you having an A then?

Jen

<small>[ March 04, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

^bumping back to page 1^

Hi Jen,

"I started playing the game by myself and she started hating me." ---- What do you mean by this? What kind of behaviour did you display that you think made her hate you?

I mean that I would just be waiting for her to come crying to me, too stupid to realize that she didn&#8217;t even care to anymore.
One of the big things that I forgot to mention in my last post was how I criticized her. I never really said much, but she knew when I disapproved of something or that she wasn&#8217;t doing something right.
She was very self conscious around me and felt that she could never do anything right.
Shifting blame on to her, for any reason, became a habit for me. And she made it so easy for me to do, because she really felt that she wasn&#8217;t good enough.

She had reached her breaking point and that&#8217;s when she had her first A. Can&#8217;t say I really blame her. She had given everything, including her self respect to try and meet my expectations and I basically told her it wasn&#8217;t good enough.

You mention something earlier that I can really relate too. You said that it felt like a race to cheat on your H before he did it to you.
I had this same feeling at the time of her first A. I could sense that she was looking elsewhere. All of a sudden she wasn&#8217;t jealous anymore of things she normally would be. I thought that she might cheat on me, so I&#8217;d better do it first. That way I wouldn&#8217;t feel as hurt or as bad when I found out.
I never tried to have an A, so instead I started telling her how some girls in college were showing some interest in me. This was partially true, but I exaggerated quite a bit. There were other things I would do as well. I just wanted to get some kind of reaction out of her. Something to tell me that I still had her under control.
Of course when I did find out about her A, I never mentioned any of this. I would say how I couldn&#8217;t even imagine doing something like this to her. Things to make her feel guilty. To me, at that time, she could never feel guilty enough.

"When did you feel you got the right to set all the rules and act like you're all powerful and all mighty and your high fallootin' attitude, where'd you get that from, because you certainly don't deserve that attitude."

This pretty much sums up what my attitude was for the better part of my relationship. I&#8217;m not just talking about the A&#8217;s.
You don&#8217;t feel nearly bad, guilty or ashamed enough for his liking. You never will.
This attitude is really his problem and it started long before any of your A&#8217;s.
That&#8217;s him talking from up on his pedestal looking down on you.
He&#8217;s not taking any responsibility for his actions.

So why are you having an A then?

Good question. It&#8217;s weird, my relationship is better than it has ever been. I feel happy, comfortable and confident. I&#8217;m a peace with all the depression and anxiety that I had. Yet here I am.
Part of it is that I&#8217;m trying to be a hero again. OW is so lonely and I know I could make her happy.
Another part seems to be revenge, which I&#8217;ve been thinking about since her last A. Sometimes I think I&#8217;m entitled to it after what she&#8217;s done.
Our sex life is great but not like it used to be. I&#8217;ve only ever been with her. I often think (fantasize) how good it would be with OW.

But the biggest single reason seems to be my ego. I was deeply embarrassed when she had her first A. I didn&#8217;t tell a single soul. I didn&#8217;t tell anyone because I didn&#8217;t want them to think less of me for staying.
What type of self respecting person stays with someone who betrays them. What type of man puts up with this abuse? Especially when I always thought that I was capable of doing better.
After her last A, I literally broke down. I was weak, beaten and ready to give up. I come from a family of all brothers and this is the kind of thing we always laughed about.
I lost some respect for myself in a way, when I turned into this scared little whining baby.
I guess I won&#8217;t be embarrassed for staying if I do the same thing. Does that make any sense?

This forum, especially my posts to you Jen, having really brought me a lot of clarity.
I don&#8217;t yet know what will happen or what I&#8217;ll do, but I am walking into this with a clear head.

Also, I really am a nice guy. You wouldn&#8217;t know it from my posts, but keep in mind I have only been concentrating on the things I did wrong.

Thanks,
Brad

Brad,

What you said about ego, I totally understand. Every "recovery" was a blow to me because how could any self-respecting person take someone back again and again. I have hypothetically contemplated a revenge affair...I have never had an actual person in mind. Some days I feel like I have learned so much other days I just feel so lost. I am ashamed for "allowing" it to go on again and again. Yet I just think a revenge affair would hurt worse because when it comes down to it using another seems cruel.

I say all the time my husband has changed and he has...but so have I.

Thanks for sharing Brad. I dont agree with what you are doing but I understand the rationale.

Sorry for the threadjack Jen.

ayslyne

How?:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One of the big things that I forgot to mention in my last post was how I criticized her. I never really said much, but she knew when I disapproved of something or that she wasn’t doing something right.
She was very self conscious around me and felt that she could never do anything right.
Shifting blame on to her, for any reason, became a habit for me. And she made it so easy for me to do, because she really felt that she wasn’t good enough.

She had reached her breaking point and that’s when she had her first A. Can’t say I really blame her. She had given everything, including her self respect to try and meet my expectations and I basically told her it wasn’t good enough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh me oh my, all of the above would be words that I can only dream would come out of my H's mouth. You sound EXACTLY like my H in the way you treated your W. How on earth did you actually realize that you were treating her that way? At what point were you finally willing to admit that? (Would you consider yourself insecure in any way? I think my H won't admit to his controlling ways maybe because he is insecure, or maybe just because he can't see them yet, who knows.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never tried to have an A, so instead I started telling her how some girls in college were showing some interest in me. This was partially true, but I exaggerated quite a bit. There were other things I would do as well. I just wanted to get some kind of reaction out of her. Something to tell me that I still had her under control.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This comment on your part makes me think that my H's reaching out to have a female exercise buddy a few years back makes me feel like he didn't really want her around, maybe he just wanted to get a big reaction out of me. He even said, finally make and take time to exercise with me, or I'll do it with her. I told him fine, I can't find the time, I don't have it in me, exercise with her (even though this hurt me very very much, and I didn't want him doing that, I felt like I couldn't do anything about it). I let work be my priority and not my H I guess - I was too busy to exercise with him. But my point it he used her to try to control me. This is a new realization.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You don’t feel nearly bad, guilty or ashamed enough for his liking. You never will.
This attitude is really his problem and it started long before any of your A’s.
That’s him talking from up on his pedestal looking down on you.
He’s not taking any responsibility for his actions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So even though you woke up and owned up to how you were controlling your W, you don't think my H will wake up?

Then again, you did wake up, but now you're knee deep in wanting to have a revenge A.......let me tell you that what is sexy in a fantasy just isn't the same in reality. You say you've only ever been with your wife, don't destroy that specialness. Heck, if you're a controlling person, maybe this will appeal to you: if you don't cheat on your W you can always remind her how you've only ever been with her. I really wouldn't want my H to throw that in my face, but I can certainly imagine it being one thing that makes him feel like he's one up on me, which is something he seems to enjoy.

Thanks again How? for posting here. You're the first poster here to really sound like you understand my H's controlling tendancies, since you've been there and done that yourself. I'd appreciate any more input you can give.

Is there any chance you may in fact NOT have an A with that woman? As you say, "It’s weird, my relationship is better than it has ever been. I feel happy, comfortable and confident. I’m a peace with all the depression and anxiety that I had. Yet here I am." You don't sound like you really need to have an A......

Jen

^^Bumping up for How? (Brad).......

Hi Jen,

How on earth did you actually realize that you were treating her that way?

I&#8217;ve always known that I was treating her that way. Sure I was in denial about it, but really, how could I treat her like that for that long and not know. Even in deep denial there are moments of clarity. I could see the indecisiveness in her every move. Always wondering what I was thinking.
Your H knows it too but if he admits it then he will lose the control that gives him so much security.
False security, because the more control I had, the more I drove my W away from me.

At what point were you finally willing to admit that?

I finally owned up and admitted this after her last A. I could see that I really needed to make a life change to make us both happy and to stop this cycle that we were in. I knew that if I continued to treat her the same that I would eventually push her to leave me or to have another A. I really had no choice but to change, she was making it very clear that she wanted to be treated differently.
When she had her first A, neither of us really changed much. Things were worse because all the resentment we had for each other.
I didn&#8217;t own up to anything. The A was entirely her fault and I often reminded her of that.
This was my attempt to regain the control I had over her, when I used to feel secure in our M.

Would you consider yourself insecure in any way?

Hell ya. I&#8217;m as insecure as they come, isn&#8217;t everyone? This is a part of myself that I should really be reflecting on a lot more because I can&#8217;t pinpoint what my insecurities are. Sorry I can&#8217;t give you any insight as to what your H&#8217;s insecurities may be.

So even though you woke up and owned up to how you were controlling your W, you don't think my H will wake up?

I would say don&#8217;t go back to him until he does wake up. That right there was the key to my seeing the light. My W really made it clear that she wanted to be treated differently. Not in words but in actions. She was feeling very good about herself, and I could see that she would really be fine without me.
If your H doesn&#8217;t own up to his part, then will anything have really changed? You might get him back, but do you want to be in the same controlling relationship that you were before?
I don&#8217;t know how to get him to wake up, except to say, work on yourself. Maybe print out this thread and let him read it. I would suggest a slap upside the head if it would do any good.

His anger over you&#8217;re A is really going to be an obstacle. But owning up to his part is the only way he&#8217;ll ever be able to deal with this anger.
I remember when my W and I went to counseling and I told the counselor how angry I was over her A. The counselor told me and I quote, &#8220;I don&#8217;t give a damn how angry you are right now.&#8221;
I didn&#8217;t understand it then, but I do now. To focus on my anger would be to place blame on everyone but myself.

Heck, if you're a controlling person, maybe this will appeal to you: if you don't cheat on your W you can always remind her how you've only ever been with her. I really wouldn't want my H to throw that in my face, but I can certainly imagine it being one thing that makes him feel like he's one up on me, which is something he seems to enjoy.

This is what I did after her first A. This is also how I pushed her to have her second A. I don't want to be that person anymore. I was never happy being like that.

Is there any chance you may in fact NOT have an A with that woman?

Thankfully OW has been out of province for the last 2 weeks. She called a couple days after she left, when she knew my W wasn&#8217;t at home, but other than that we haven&#8217;t had the chance to reinforce our feelings for each other. I really don&#8217;t know where we stand right now. She calls almost every day to talk to my W and she&#8217;s been saying that she can&#8217;t wait to come back home. I think this is because she misses me, but I don&#8217;t know for sure.
I don&#8217;t know how I&#8217;m going to act when she comes back. I don&#8217;t know what she&#8217;s thinking, maybe the time away has cleared her thoughts of me. Part of me would like her to go about her life and forget me. But I can&#8217;t stop thinking what if.

I do know that to stop my A for sure, I need to come clean with my W. I&#8217;m not ready to do that at this time.
Thanks,
Brad

I&#8217;ve always known that I was treating her that way. Sure I was in denial about it, but really, how could I treat her like that for that long and not know. Even in deep denial there are moments of clarity. Wow. I guess my H probably knows too. Actually, it reminds me of something. One of those female colleague/friends of his bakes him muffins every weekend, and then brings them to him Monday morning. He was bragging to me about how he's got her wrapped around his finger. So he knows he's controlling. He just feels entitled to behaving like that I guess. Maybe it's because his dad had his mom absolutely wrapped around his finger too. My MIL lived her life solely to meet the needs of her H and her boys. She really went out of her way to do so. She did very little for herself, ever. So I guess my H learned it at home. What was the relationship like between your parents? Did you say something earlier about being the oldest of several siblings too?

How many months after d-day did you own up to your behaviour and realize the need to change? (I'm still waiting for my H to do any real self-examining, and it's been 9 months).

My W really made it clear that she wanted to be treated differently. Not in words but in actions. She was feeling very good about herself, and I could see that she would really be fine without me. Hmm...this is what I've been trying to do, but it's hard. I keep getting the "what's up with you being so high fallootin'" tune from my H when I look out for myself.

Just last night, he phoned me, late again, at like 10:30pm. I couldn't be bothered to answer. I figured, 1) let him wonder where I am; 2) do I really want to talk to someone who only cares to call me late at night, and spend his days with "more deserving" people?; 3) he probably was just calling to ask me to come over for sex, and I didn't want to do that; 4) it's all a part of his preferred "Don't call me, but I can call you, and you should jump when I do so" controlling act, which I don't want to be a part of.

Funny thing is, as I found out much later, he also called my cell phone. He apparently really wanted to talk to me. But did he leave a message? No. So this morning I've been debating whether I should call him and ask him if everything is okay, because him calling both my apt. and my cell phone is out of character for him. But my instincts tell me not to call him. If there was something important to tell me he should have left a message, right?

I remember when my W and I went to counseling and I told the counselor how angry I was over her A. The counselor told me and I quote, &#8220;I don&#8217;t give a damn how angry you are right now.&#8221; How did you end up in counselling? Your suggestion? Your wife's? Did you end up there before or after you "woke up" about how you were controlling your W?

I'm glad to hear that potential OW is out of province. (I'm Canadian too, from Alberta - where are you from?) Hopefully she'll stay away long enough for feelings of temptation to die away. You're right, you need to come clean with your W about your temptations. Who knows if you'll ever really be "ready" for that difficult conversation though.

Thanks again Brad for the continued open and honest dialogue. I may just have to print this out and show it to my H someday, when he's willing to consider and listen to and value what I have to say. He so frequently accuses me of having no thoughts of my own, he assumes every thing I have to say about us must come from Dr. Phil or some self-help book.

Anyone else's input is welcome too!

Jen

PS: Something else that I think is importatn: This weekend I chose not to go and visit my MIL. Who knows how she'll feel about this. We didn't have any prearranged date, but I've gone over to see her at least once each weekend since my FIL passed away. BUT I've noticed that when I go to visit her, I just end up deep in guilt and sadness and loneliness for what my H and I once had. It leaves me reeling for up to a few days. I often foolishly allow myself to be treated poorly by my H after seeing her too. So I decided to try a weekend off for my own sanity. Selfish behaviour on my part maybe, but wise too, isn't it? Self-preservation is my priority!

<small>[ March 09, 2003, 01:58 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>