Ok, it's been a few days so I'll give you a quick run down. Not much changed until yesterday when we took the afternoon to go shopping. On the way home we started talking a little, her mood was still good and upbeat, but she seemed to be a little distant.

Last night we started talking more and she said she wanted to be close to me, touch me, be touched, hugged, cuddled, etc. But, she could not have sex with me because that was "too close". Now she says in light of recent discoveries she's physically afraid of me and if she had the chance she would move as far away as possible and start everything over.

I still don't understand her thinking; who knows, maybe I'm not supposed to. I'm just going with the flow and taking one day at a time and trying not to dwell on anything too much.

Feedback encouraged.

TM-

Just enjo the closeness and try not to let the other crap bug you. She's still FOG talking and as WAT is famous for saying - the alien has abducted her brain.....

What discoveries is she referring to if I may ask? If she was afraid of you, why would she allow you to be close to her? It doesn't fit...She is making excuses for not being intimate with you... Do you still feel in you HEART that she is seeing someone else. My bet is Yes, but I want to know what you think.....

Kily,
The discoveries I referred to are:
She found paperwork on the spyware I purchased for the home PC. I told her it wouldn't work, but she doesn't believe me. I also told her that the phone was tapped and I had tapes of her and OM, now she wants them. I figured what the He!! I was already in a hole so I might as well just keep on digging and divulge everything. I had 2 e-mail accounts she didn't know about, one I used to reply to an ad I thought she had posted and the other was used to become a moderator on the site I thought she was visiting. I also placed an ad in the age group and location I thought she was searching.

None of the snooping since D-Day #2 has turned up much of anything. There were a lot of things that sent off warning bells and flags, but when I investigated them further they turned out to be dead ends. I have been very thourough in my snooping and pooping, I am trained and others pay me to do what I do. So to answer your question, No I don't think she's seeing OM.

Honestly, I don't know if she would see him again or not. I don't know if she would begin dating someone else or not. I have suspected a couple of guys she works with, but I have no proof and I'm really not sure. She doesn't go out anymore, no unfamiliar calls on caller ID, no unfamiliar numbers called, etc.

At this point I haven't given up, but I feel that I have given in. I cannot convince her to stay where she doesn't want to, I can't make her love me the way I Love Her, and I CAN NOT continue to track her down and check up on her every move. I was for a very long time and it tore me apart mentally. I haven't done a lot of snooping in the past month or so, but I still don't feel that she is seeing anyone. I haven't gotten that gut feeling anyway.

Type away Kily, I want to hear all of your OPINION, good bad or indifferent. I'm pretty numb right now, so don't worry about planting things in my head or hurting me.

TM-

I thought there was something "sexual" that she uncovered. Sorry.
Now it makes more sense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Last night we started talking more and she said she wanted to be close to me, touch me, be touched, hugged, cuddled, etc. But, she could not have sex with me because that was "too close". Now she says in light of recent discoveries she's physically afraid of me and if she had the chance she would move as far away as possible and start everything over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see why she feels all of this.

Recommendation:
I think we've encouraged you to validate her feelings and at the same time to express your position in the matter. Did you give her the tapes?

Tell her something like the following:

W, I know that you feel physically afraid of me. When I found out about your A, I was afraid too. My only way of dealing with this was to .......It doesn't justify what I did and I am sorry. I love you, and I would NEVER hurt you. I know it will take time, but I am willing to prove to you the truth of these words. I only ask that you give me some time to show you the sincerity of my words.

Then tell her that you could understand why she feels the need to move away. Tell her that this is not what you want, but that you would support her NO MATTER WHAT! Let her know that you wou;d like to have a different type of relationship - introduce her to the concept of radical honesty. Tell her that you are willing to take it day by day, that you will not pressure her to have SF. Convince her that you are sincere in your desire to reconcile - but are willing to let go if it's what she wants.

Have you considered filling out the EN questionairre and having her do the same? It sounds like she might be receptive at this point? How about MC? Have you broached this recently?

TM,
I’m going to come over here so you don’t have to keep jumping back and forth.

I had the same thought that Kily had, “is she still seeing him”? I went there because I see lonely all over her statements and if she doesn’t want sex maybe she’s getting that need filled somewhere else. But stepping back and thinking about it I can see I may have made the same mistake people often make. I projected my (a mans) higher priority need on her and women typically don’t rank SF in the up there with us grunts. But I do get the feeling she is feeling lonely and needing some affection and nurturing. My vote, give her all she wants.

Also I just read kily’s second response and concur, the only caution I will throw in there is in the area of convincing her of these things. Historically she has felt and expressed that she thinks you are a manipulator. So tread lightly in the convincing arena, try not to back her into that corner if she doesn’t have the light go off in her head. Like kily says, use the “I understand why you feel that way” but then really try too and have empathy.

Oz

TM94,

Some good advice here from Kily and Oswald. I concur with both. what Oswald said about manipulation and convinicing is right on. I also was accused of being a manipulator, so anything I said or did was taken out of context over the last year. So, since you are in the same situation, dont let her use it against you. forget about convincing her. Just be TM94, and through your example, she will believe.

On the subject of her moving out, listen to what they told you. Be supportive, while saying you dont want this. It will diffuse the issue, and show that you are trying to respect her and her decisions.

I believe there is a VERY BIG key here, that if you tread lightly and rightly, you maye just have your marriage back in short order. Let me explain.

First, she wants emotional affection from you, as well as physical (cuddling, etc). What are her top 5 ENs? Meet them, no matter what! But my guess one of them is affection and maybe conversation. Keep doing what you are doing. Dont bring R talk in, unless she does. Dont tell her she is WRONG. Express your views if you have to. Let her then put two and two together.

Second, she wants to move away. She is frightened. Why? Well, my wife was too. Because she has made a mistake, a HUGE one. Pride enters in. Also, they project how they would handle things if they were in our shoes. And thus, they cannot see how we can forgive, how we wouldnt hold it over their heads. My wife has even recently talked about one of her biggest fears is that I will hold this over her head. Words will not reassure them! Just listen to this, tell them you love her and you know you can get past this. And then leave it alone. You cannot do anything actively to lessen her fear, but you can make it worse. Her fear will go away as she continues to lean on you, and trust you...and you continue to be there for her. On her moving away, this may actually be an opportunity! you have been doing an AWESOME Plan A. Now, when she walks away to her new place (if she actually does), she will be subjected to loneliness. Dont be surprised when she calls late at night to ask you "What are you doing?" She isnt checking up on you...she misses you. When she has to do without you, after you being so loving in Plan A (even after what she has done), she will miss you. And she will be the one to make the effort to try to come back. like I said, this may be a blessing in disguise. If I hadnt of LBed so much this past fall, I believe my wife would have been home a lot sooner. So, dont look at her moving out into her own place as the end...but the beginning. Because I believe by what you are saying here, that she actually is closer to being over all of this than any of us think. And if you will let her just finish running this course, while continuing what you are doing, I believe we will celebrating your reconciliation, as you have been celebrating ours!

You are close, TM94. Dont blow it now.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 13, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

TM I just wanted to add that what people say and what people actually do, are two very different things. It's been my experience that when people actually do something, most of time, they do not broadcast it to those closest to them. Your W KNOWS that she is not your prisoner, and if she wants to leave, the door is always open for her to step out. If she truly is physically fearful, she would have sought the services of the court to remove you from your home, or would have left to seek refuge somewhere where you wouldn't be able to find her. So don't take what she says as the Gospel truth, and apologize for any thing you may have done to hurt her. Continue to work on becoming a better person and especially a very confident new you.

Wow, go to lunch and look what I get when I get back.

Kily,
No, I haven't turned over the tapes yet. Don't ask me why, because I'm really not sure, I just haven't. We did fill out ENQ's in the beginning, but I'm not sure that she was very honest or truthful about it. I have been concentrating on all of her EN's. As far as MC goes, she's still completely against it. She went with me to an IC appt under the condition that we not talk about the marriage, only about my problems. She says she doesn't want to fix it, she's not trying to fix it, so there's no need to talk about it.

Oz,
Nice to see all my friends in one place, thanks. The problem is, I don't understand how she feels or why she feels that way. I've asked and tried to understand, but I just don't get it. That leads to her getting frustrated and angry because she's tired of trying to explain things. I can understand some of what she feels, but I'm honestly lost in most of it.

MM,
Wow you make things sound great!! I only wish I had your optimism. I don't try to talk about the marriage any more, I don't try to "educate" her anymore, and I’m just there for whatever she will allow me to be there for. I think this has relieved some of the pressure as she has started to open up more. I'm hoping that you are right about her moving out. That's the way I'm looking at it anyway. Once she's gone she will begin to see what she has left behind. If she does call & stuff I will be overjoyed, if she doesn't call I don't know what I will do; I'm afraid I'll fall apart.

2MCM,
I agree with you. She says one thing, but acts completely different. That is what is so confusing about all of this. If she truly wanted to leave and quit talking to me, or wasn't friendly to me I think I could accept it much easier. But when she's talking about leaving and being all cuddly and friendly and nice it just makes everything so confusing. I really don't think that she is afraid of me, but at the same time I can't figure out why she would say she is if she isn't. That one just has me all confused. I could see it if I was an alcoholic, or abusive, or we fought a lot, or if I was even verbally abusive. But I'm not any of those. Yes I am much bigger and stronger than her, but aren't 90% of all men?

Again, thank all of you for your responses and recommendations. It really does help and I do appreciate it.