Hi LA,

Read your post on Ferbie's thread. Didn't want to detract from it so I thought I'd pick your brain. Do you mind?

Originally posted by LurkingAbout:
Is hope wrong?

Well, one could say hope is the opposite of depression (or feeling hopeless). Optimism vs pessimism. Both have their places in our understanding how to proceed in life. Being realistically pessimistic, or giving up hope is a healthy thing, but each has to decide when to do so. Having hope when it is no longer justified, or healthy for you then makes it obsession, or avoidance (fear of moving on), and that is obviously not good.

Still all in all, erring on the side of hope/optimism is IMO more desireable than the other. Ideally we would all be perfectly balanced, and know what to do all the time, but no one I know is that "together". So hope is not wrong...but unrealistic hope is obsessive and paralyzing...not wrong, but not healthy.

Orchid: So hope is good as long as it is not obessive or out of balance? If so, I concur.

IMO you should not base your behaviour on what your s has told you, but on his behaviour.

Orchid: Good advice. I also agree.

If he is gone, a reasonable time has elapsed, you (in the meantime) have done your personal work, and are ready to live your life...then do so, if he shows up...fine, if not, you will have a good life because you are healthy and make good choices. That includes divorce (at some point, so as to reclaim your life...he can still pursue you, and remarry if that is in the cards, divorce is just boundary setting, means nothing about the future one way or another).

Orchid: Good point. What is 'a reasonable time elaspe'?

I see you as stuck, waiting, hoping for someone to tell you (so to speak) what to do. It is your life, you will do what you want. You could spend your entire life "waiting" (the so-called standing for your marriage idea, which is an unhealthy psychological decision, but one made sometimes on spiritual grounds...wrongly IMO). I don't think indefinite waiting is a healthy choice, so in that sense at some point "hope" is wrong (as in saying unhealthy things about your psychological well-being). But you will have to decide these things for yourself. What I think you hear people saying is that in their opinion (and because you ask for feedback) you have waited long enough, have changed yourself enough, and now it is time to let go and get on with a healthy life...they are tough loving you so to speak..not validateing your hope turning to obsession.

Orchid: Tough love. You agree with tough love? Sounds like it. Make sure hope doesn't go beyond a 'reasonable' point? Another good thought.

Now based on the above, I would like to ask your 'opinion' on the actions of some of the WS we hear about. You have been 'lurking' for a while now so you probably know my sitch as well as a few others so I will ask some general questions. Your insight is interesting to say the least.

Here goes:

1. How should a BS react when the WS makes promises to always be there and look out for the interests of the family and then doesn't?

2. What makes the WS drop their obvious responsibilities?

3. Does the BS and family have the right to expect the WS to keep his or her family obligations (financially, emotionally, etc.)?

4. You say to watch the actions and not the words. What would you say to a WS who degrades the BS, family and others?

5. What would you tell the WS who is nelgigent to his or her family?

6. What would you say to a WS who is trying to lie to his or her family and others? Especially in financial aspects?

7. What would you say to a WS who only looks to find fault no matter what the BS does?

8. How do you think the BS and family should be treated?

9. How would you tell a WS to stop mistreating his or her family?

10. What do you think the BS should look for when dealing with a stubborn, angry, sometimes violent WS?

11. Do you think the BS should NOT tell the WS he or she loves them?

12. Do you think the BS should stop meeting all the WS needs?

13. Do you think the BS has the right to protect themselves and the interest of their family?

14. What do you think the WS should do to prove his or her worth to his or her family?

There may be more questions. Been pondering this one for a while.

You don't have to answer them all right now. Maybe later this comig weekend.

Thanks,
L.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

1. How should a BS react when the WS makes promises to always be there and look out for the interests of the family and then doesn't?

.....How should one act when anyone who has made them a promise doesn't deliver? This is not a marital issue it is a human interaction issue. It is also a complex issue because of communication and perception issues. Promises are also used in manipulative way and are kissing cousins to manipulation and coercion/guilt, devalueing the use/value of promises as a relationship tool.

One could write a book, replete with all the categories of promises, scenarios, exceptions, and so forth....maybe I will someday, but not now. Instead I will just hit some points, without a lot of supporting explanation, you can decide for yourself if it makes sense. For this purpose promises fall into 2 broad categories, structural (as in a specific action anyone can do)..and relationship (vows, oaths, fidelity, emotional focus, feelings, etc.).

A. Structural, I promise to stop on the way home and pick up the dry-cleaning. I promise to let you control the TV changer this evening.

This is doable stuff, and exceptions obvious. If one works late, gets stuff in traffic, runs out of gas, TV breaks, they cannot keep the promise, their obligation is discharged. Some might say, well you still owe me, now you have to pick up the dry-cleaning (or give me TV rights next day)tomorrow cause I can't. Nope, the promise was discharged by circumstances, such is life. Lots of people play the you owe me game, using promises (and not keeping them) as emotional currency. I do not think that works.

The other scenario is that the person just reneges on the promise. Oh sorry, but I decided to go to the video arcade, or the bar with fred, not get the dry-cleaning...or sorry, just noticed a movie I want to see is on, not going to give up the channel changer tonight....these are broken promises, and are symptons of personality disorders, ditto chronic liars. If these kinds of promises aren't kept then the next category (the one you asked about) are meaningless.

One small exception is absent-minded people. One has to determine whether that is real or a control strategy, but if real, then you simply adjust your expectations with them, not about promises keeping, or not keeping, at all.

B. The second category is greatly abused IMO in relationships, starting with trying to turn a vow (or any promises of eternal love) into a gaurantee. No one can promise such things, unless we want to make human relationships only contracts, and I do not know anyone who wants to do that. All relationships are a roll of the dice, there is no way to gaurantee the outcomes we all seek. Trying to hedge that bet with a vow only leads to unreasonable expectations, and the intense angst you see here everyday. But you can promise something important, that bears on all this. You can promise radical honesty (although one may fail, it is doable because it is an action not a feeling)...and you can promise to be a safe recipient of radical honesty...harder to do, but you can't expect honesty if you are not going to make it safe to do so...and very few people seem to be able to recieve radical honesty safely....citing THEIR emotions, while almost in the same breath telling a ws (for example) their emotions don't count.

IMO radical honesty (in all it's flavors and permutations) is the key ingredient of MB principles, and applies to all relationships. Some the other MB stuff is biased to certain temperaments and does not work. Likewise their is more to successful intimacy then behaviour modification, you have to have the right ingredients, you have to fit...or you can only settle.... a sort of contractural intimacy, rule based. In that setting promises (contract provisions) make more sense, but you give up the other stuff and must police the relationship. Decideing whether to stay or go based on how well the other is keeping the specific promises worked out.

My answer to your specfic question is two-fold. First what do you mean. Are people starving, is ws putting family in danger, is ws putting the family at financial risk, health risk? If any of these basic needs are not being met, a bs should take any and all actions/remedies required to secure the safety/health/welfare of themselves and the children....ie the family. This should be done without the slightest regard for the ws in any way, and includes revealing the affair to everyone.

Life is rarely black and white, so that answer doesn't mean you shouldn't think long and hard about what exactly is happening (so you don't overreact to the rejection feelings, and overplay the actual neglect), and choose actions that are appropriate. Telling a ws boss about his personal life, and getting them fired might not be a good idea, and how does it help you (for example). But certainly seizeing all financial assets, evicting the ws from the home, securing interim support/custody orders, ppo's, closing out all avenues of the ws to run up debt that impacts you, changeing the locks, removing their access to all your records, accounts, passwords, phones, etc. This should include a communication to ws as to why these actions are being taken, and conditions under which you will reconsider. BTW we are talking about this from a bs (victim) standpoint, but it applies equally to a ws who has an unsafe bs. Clearly these actions will escalate conflict, but IMO a healthy relationship will survive this tough love ok, and if it is an unhealthy one, well the sooner you find that out the better IMO. ALso many times a bs is a woman with small children, and few skills, maybe little family support as well..her circumstances are desperate (even more so if ws is a vindictive, controlling, abusive personality), and requires very careful consideration.

secondly, if basic needs are not so much the issue, and what you ask is the in-love stuff, relationship committment stuff, then I am ok with harleyism, short plan A, followed by plan B, followed by plan S/D. Encourage the self-work, learn not to lovebust, etc. IMO people wait far too long to seperate, apply tough love, etc. I think long drawn out recoveries (that never really get there) aren't recoveries at all, just modified sweep everything under the rug, avoid the truth the marriage is not healthy, denial stuff. If someone wants to be married to you, has the capacity to hold up their end, and is committed, that will be evident in pretty short order (likewise you to them). If that is not happening, than tough love, sep/div, delivers the final life consequence and will get their focus (or not, mostly not...in which case you can continue your life that much sooner)...so why wait? There is a type of temperament that seems to think marriage to THAT person at all costs is the goal. I don't think those are very safe people, obsession of any kind is not a healthy basis for relationships. They end up in co-dependentcies spending a lifetime enabling/fixing someone. That is just plain unhealthy. We sometimes laud such folks, but IMO that is not admirable, and such people are just as messed up as the one they seek to fix, and themself are not good marriage material. Obsession is not an attractive quality, regardless of how noble the obsession is. For example, workaholics, sometimes achieve great things, but IMO that does not make their obsession desireable. Obsessive people are dangerous, they cannot be reasoned with, and life is about them...that does not make for good relationship material.

I can't comment more specifically, your question was too general. But if your ws (after all this time and various recoveries) cannot tear himself away from this lunatic op, then the question is, when does orchid accept her H is not safe, will never be safe, and is that ok with her (in that she will just carry the marriage by herself, and accept his shortcomings). If it is not ok, then the bs (or ws sometimes, jen brown for example) needs to face a hard place...no not the divorce...but that the life they envisioned, vested in, has failed...and start to build a new one, focus away from the failure, and look to the future. Certainly closing up shop as well as possible, striving for understanding, and amicabilit...but recognizing intimacy is impossible with this individual (and they with you), and whatever is to be will be, and work toward that. If instead one focuses on bitterness, vindictiveness, blame, etc. then you devalue and reject all the positive things that you can take away, and make the tradjedy all the worse. Life is a journey, not a destination, and everybit of it is of value, if you want it to be...likewise everyday the past is gone, all there is is the future, and it is unwritten, in large measure it will be what you want it to be, I don't think people really understand that very well.

2. What makes the WS drop their obvious responsibilities?

....What makes anyone irresponsbile. Probably they were allways irresponsible. I don't think this has anything to do with ws, plenty of irresponsible bs in the world too. If you want to be more specific I might be able to answer more. In general anytime someone (for any reason) becomes distracted, some responsibilities may not be carried out as well...and clearly a ws is distracted. Likewise a bs may bne distracted and let things slide, get fired from a job, are they irresponsible?

3. Does the BS and family have the right to expect the WS to keep his or her family obligations (financially, emotionally, etc.)?

.....absolutely. It is a reasonable expectation, however (like most things) there may be conflict over exactly what that means, there are boundaries. You cannot include in that expectation binding someone to you maritally. But you should expect them to treat you with respect and caring even if divorceing, that applies to both ws and bs.

4. You say to watch the actions and not the words. What would you say to a WS who degrades the BS, family and others?

....I would say the same about bs who do such things...it is inappropriate behaviour, they should be called on it, and hopefully apologize and try to refrain from childish behaviours. The problem is marital failures evoke tremendous emotional responses, often intemperate, just part of life. I would hope though there is an acknowledgemnt and committment (on all parts) that such behaviour is hurtful and to be avoided.

5. What would you tell the WS who is nelgigent to his or her family?

....I would tell them that even if the intimate relationship has failed they still have obligations, and that ignoring those obligations is unhealthy for them.

6. What would you say to a WS who is trying to lie to his or her family and others? Especially in financial aspects?

....that is oftentimes a matter of disagreement over what the facts are. But if a ws is acting in a way clearly not in the best interests of the family...such as providing funds to an op, or diverting funds to desrtructive purposes...drinking, drugs, junkets, gambling etc....then I would say the same as #5. Financial arguments are a very thorny issue even when married, no surprise they become even bigger when added to marital failure as well. BS can and do use financial matters to try and punish a ws, is that ok?

7. What would you say to a WS who only looks to find fault no matter what the BS does?

....I would suggest they have some issues needing counselling. I would say the same to the many bs who behave similarly.

8. How do you think the BS and family should be treated?

....Everyone should be treated with respect, caring, and radical honesty.

9. How would you tell a WS to stop mistreating his or her family?

....This is all the same stuff orchid. If people are motivated to behave in healthy ways, then you try to intervene enough to reduce the tension, and then discuss/meet everyones needs. If someone (bs or ws) is behaving in unreasonable manner that should be fairly clear, and hopefully they would be amenable to leaveing their emotional responses out of behvioural negotiations...but we both know, that often does not happen, so you end up with conflict and accusations of mistreatment, which may or may not be true...can you be more specific?

10. What do you think the BS should look for when dealing with a stubborn, angry, sometimes violent WS?

....Stubborn/angry is different than violent. If someone is bent on assaulting you, then you have to insure your safety. If instead we are talking about mutual provocative behaviour, both need to stop, and probably divorce since they cannot stop pushing each others buttons. But if this is one-sided, a bs who is as pure as driven snow, then the ws is just a lowlife looser and should probably be executed....ditto if the other way around, their are plenty of world-class bs jerks out there as well.

11. Do you think the BS should NOT tell the WS he or she loves them?

....Mostly they should not, cause it is not true...and is manipulative. But now we are back into caring love, vs intimate love...most people care (I think) about each other (well, except for the narcissists, sociopaths, and BPD who have little capacity to actually care altruistically about anyone, unfortuneately these people marry and many here are stuck with such spouses). IMO intimate love cannot exist without 2 psychologically healthy people that fit each other..you cannot decide to love someone, it is the label we describe successful intimacy with...but that doesn't stop people from claiming to love someone, while simultaneously love busting like crazy, not "seeing" the ws except as how they affect the hopes/dreams/desires of the bs (property in other words), and suddenly decideing they hate them if the ws does not return to the fold. Harleys say love is conditional, I say it is not. What they call conditional I say is actually referring to fitting....you cannot love someone who mistreats you, or isn't a safe, nurturing place..conditional in other words, but this also is the outcome when you do not fit...and love does not apply under these circumstances. It is not possible to unilaterally love...you can caringly love, but you cannot intimately love, it takes 2.

12. Do you think the BS should stop meeting all the WS needs?

.....No

13. Do you think the BS has the right to protect themselves and the interest of their family?

...already addressed this pretty much. The answer is yes, the devil is in the details. It is not uncommon for a bs (or a ws) to cry protection when the are really acting vindictively, or selfishly.

14. What do you think the WS should do to prove his or her worth to his or her family?

...I don't think the concept of proving something to someone is consistent with being human. No one owes anyone anything, or has to prove anything. Everyone should live their life in harmony with who they are, understanding themself, the life paradigms they proactively choose (as opposed to the reactive ones we are handed in growing up), and making proactive choices...I do think radical honesty is all one can ask for or expect. In so doing we all have a clear view of who each of us is, and we can decide what to do from their. If instead we are trying to grade someone, on some sort of standard we are in an adversarial relationship with them, and that is a poor basis for a relationship.

In the specfic case of an affair, IMO a ws would voluntarily embrace the rules of protection...a bs would voluntarily choose to risk further rejection by continuing the relationship. The behaviour of both (the radically honest behaviour) will reveal the truth about the quality of their relationship, and if it meets both their needs, it will continue just fine. If if does not meet 1 (or both) then it must end...their is little reason to live ones life in an intimate relationship that does not work. People place way too much importance on the fact an affair occured. The importance (and it is very important) lies in why it happened, and the radical honesty about the relationship (and each individual) that should follow. Marriage as a goal itself is unimportant, what is important is the health and well-being of the ws and the bs, if that works out maritally, fine, if not, that is fine too. There is nothing inherently wrong with exspouse relationships, the important thing is too have relationship boundaries where they belong...if they are not, then the resultant stress is a needless drain on people. Divorce is nothing but a boundary defineing the degree of intimacy between two people. Whatever connections they have are not defined by ones legal status, but ones legal status should reflect those connections it seems to me....being married just to be married, or out of guilt, fear, dependentcy, and a host of other dysfunctional reasons is anathema to me. In my world, things need to work, and be judged by performance, not artificial pictures, expectations, rules. In the case of marital relationships the principles are pretty clear, and are defined by human psychology.

<small>[ March 15, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Hi Lurking,

Thanks for responding so quickly. Hm.... could you please expound on #12?

As usual you bring up many valid points. My next question is based on a few of your comments:

15. How should one (ie: a BS) handle another (particularly a WS) if the WS says one thing and does another? I know this s/b an obvious answer but life often doesn't go in an obvious route.
Now this question is raised because in the case of the A there is (not opinion but fact), there is a lot of fluff, bluff and A stuff talk spewing out of the mouth of the WS. Most of which are quite foreign the family. Made up or dead issues are raised up as if they exist and are thriving today.

16. What do you think it would take for let's say someone of your character who may have picked up the bad habit of let's say blaming the world for not enabling the A, what would it take to get that type of character back to normalacy so that these character issues are not jeporadizing on the family's health, safety and security? In other words, if you were a WS and you jeporadized your family's health, safety and security, what should your spouse do?

17. To expand on #16, what should a spouse do when a WS is in such a hurtful state of mind and heart? I questions 16 & 17 are particularly important since many here are in various stages of that situation and don't know how to react. That being the case, some are actually enabling the A by trying to work with the WS and be nice. Why? Because they are trying (for whatever reason), trying to save their M or M and family. But it may be that in this case, the true plan A may not be pratical.

I look forward to your observations.

Thanks,
L.

will try to respond more to other stuff later but re #12

You asked stop meeting ALL needs. That would define a no contact relationship. One may decide that, but it is highly situational, and almost completely at odds with any failed marriage that has children. Any relationship must have a basis, ie needs met, otherwise why be in it? Even parent/child relationships should have some exchange of needs met.

If one truly wants no contact with a ws, then stop meeting all needs. If instead you are implying a strategy (Ie plan B) then that is fine subject to the conditions plan B is predicated on. But there it is a short term behaviour in the larger context of a marital resolution. The goal being to expose the ws (and the bs for that matter) to exactly what will be missing if the marriage ends. That is useful information, plan B is not essential, but one tool to be used.

I answered your question in the absolute sense. Unless you actually do not ever want to see/hear/whatever the ws again, then stop meeting all needs (but that begs the question how could you love them, or want to reconcille with them then). IMO NC is it, fini, done, no second chance, it means you have turned away from that person forever, do not point the gun unless you plan to pull the trigger. In fact, most failed relationships have resisdual value. To one degree or another that person played a role in your life (and you their's), it is worth preserveing the good, the goal is where to set the boundary. That defines what needs you will continue to meet. If kids are involved, this is even more important, and meeting each others family support should be something each wants. Likewise in any relationship there should be some recognition of good points (guess that falls under admiration), some feeling of support (what are friends/exspouses for if not reasonable help when needed...guess that falls sort of under domestic support, even financial support). If people think well of each other (even though the trauma of failed intimacy leaves one raw for awhile), seems some mutual affection is desireable. Anyways you get the point. One need that should NOT be met in any shape or form is sexual fullfillment. IMO that need can only be properly met monogamously, obviously in divorce (or a ws who is active with an op) those conditions are not met.

What I am saying is that you should meet those needs consistent with the level of relationship you want with a ws, not artificially establish no contact (unless that is what you want, no relationship of any kind). If instead you say to a ws, well I want to be married to you and meet all your needs, but if you don't want to be married to me, I don't even want to know you exist...that is a very dangerous individual, who clearly views any marital partner as property. I would politely (or not so politely) tell such a bs to take a hike, and don't let the door hit you in the [censored] on the way out. But most of the time such things are posturing, and hurt feelings, exspouses who are otherwise decent people seem to craft good relationships, they just recognize they can't be successfully married...the release of that tension allows a less stressful relationship to flourish.

One caveat, in the situation of a ws living at home, supposedly working on the marriage (after all the intial chaos of discovery, withdrawal etc. has passed) continues to pursue the op then the meeting of needs becomes pretty minimal...including asking them to move out (or moving out yourself, whatever), which clearly reduces/eliminates many needs until the relationship is properly defined (divorced, or reconcilled). I believe in tough love, short plan a/b and divorce within 1-2 years of discovery, there is no point in enabling waffling behaviour, better to subject the relationship to the full force of life consequences (loss of the marriage and whatever benefits you recieved from it vs being alone, and whatever benefits derive from restructuring your life in a healthy manner...assuming the marriage was not healthy).

<small>[ March 15, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Hi LurkingAbout,

Just posted to you on Richsgirl thread. Thought we could continue it here on the one that I am still waiting to hear your response on.

I meant what I said and whether it had a 'tone' in it or not does not change the sincerity of the thought. ok?

My WS thought I had a tone, when I said anything during the hiatus of the A. Lots of anger in him and it eventually spilled to the rest of the world. Sure don't want that to happen to you, ya know?!??!

Ok, howz about giving us your thoughts on the last few questions? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks,
L.

I understand what you mean about tone, and it was tone I addressed (basically), which is why I deleted the part about what his intent might be, I shouldn't have said that part. I am willing to consider most folks intents here are to be helpful, but when the delivery exceeds acceptable decorum, people need to speak up. I have been in both positions (guilty party too), as have most who choose the wild abd wooly world of public discourse..no big deal, and redhat is a big boy.

as for your remaining questions, I am contemplating them, will let you know.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>