After I've found out in Feb that WW is still in contact with OM, I tried to move out, which I couldn’t (see my previous posts). There was some short-lived optimism when she wrote a letter to both OM and me, stating "she wants to focus on herself now" and "that she will not move to the US" (where OM lives). The obvious question NOT answered was, whether she intended to keep up the contact and whether that means that she will focus on OUR relationship, to which she later answered - NO, she doesn’t see why she should stop contact and NO that doesn’t mean she still wants me resp. our relationship ( see [URL=http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=022814;p=1]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=022814;p=1[/ URL] )

So here we left it ten days ago.

In the mean time I brought up the topic once. The result of the discussion is that she comes out fighting and hardheaded when I suggest that we ought to split and separate - and sometimes even agrees to us separating ("well, if that's what you want"). She is very determined with her staying at home and "focusing on herself" (like passing the driving exam, job applications etc etc), come hell or high water. And no, she can't and doesn’t' want to commit to *our* relationship. She said "I should give her time till term holidays" (which are in 3 weeks). Similarly, she timed our next MC session for that timeframe.

In the mean time, I have avoided to be in the same room with her and to speak more than 3 words with her at a time. Basically, she gives a s*** about me, I do the same, thank you very much. For example, we wouldn’t have dinner as a family, but either me+D or she+D. The main reason why I'm doing this is that I simply can't engage in our relationship anymore as long as there's nothing in return, even not a basic will or little spark of hope. I try not to LB at all, simply avoid and ignore her. (only once I did, she had a question, I answered - go and phone your OM, do you want me to dial the number for you…? Not good, I know, guilty.)
On Saturday I expected to go out and have some fun dinner with my daughter - but WW stayed out and went to have dinner with D herself plus her niece of course (she lives with us as an au-pair). So, my wife, our daughter and wife's niece (ie, my daughter's cousin) would generally have quite a merry time together. This made me really sad, as it exemplified all what's happening - I am at home, alone and waiting, I am footing the bill for it all, but it's she who is enjoying herself. I mentioned that to her, she apologised. I said, well, ideally we could do all these things together as a family, right? Do you understand why I can't? Do you understand what you need to do for us to be a family again? To which she replied: Yes, I know.

Will all that alter her frame of mind? Will she see what it is like, to lose and destroy the family? [Don’t miss the next episode in this gripping drama….] Maybe, but then again, maybe she has made up her mind already, and waits for the optimal moment for executing her (separation) plan, or, if not forced to, not deciding at all, stalling as usual.

Guys, am I doing the right thing here? I sort of always 'reacting' to things here rather than taking decisive action. But each time I try to launch into a decisive action, I either can't because I'm afraid of screwing it all up (and yes, I do care about it, as I still have feelings for her & see hope and a joint future), or, am literally beaten back by my wife, as she is very combatant, articulate and hardheaded.

<small>[ March 17, 2003, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Nick-

The biggest risk I see in this pseudo Plan A is that circumstances will drain away the love you have left for your W. I mean, do you still have those feelings of wanting/needing her or is it more on principles that you fight on or still some of both? To me, your situation is so ripe for a Plan B because your W really has no clue what things would be like without you around....It sounds like she'd be going through some major changes. JMO, but good luck with whatever you decide.

If you're already barely speaking with her, then it doesn't seem like much to do it right and do a proper Plan B. It seemed like you had the right focus for a Plan B in eariler threads and you've been talking with SH, so you seem pretty prepared.

Personally, I think the living together coldly (i.e. neither Plan A or B) is a less than ideal option.

Also, I think that unless she hits upon the realization that OM is not "all that", that you'll be dealing (competing) with the fantasy-picture for a pretty long time in recovery. Allow her to face the consequences of her decisions and actions could be the best thing for her to "work on herself".

As has been said, neither plan A or B doesn't build the banks up, and partial support doesn't show what she would be missing.

I vote that if you can't stay in a good plan A, then go to B so that no more dammage is done on either side. I worry that you will undo the good you did before with the DJ's and the coldness.

SS

<small>[ March 17, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Thanks for your feedback. I stopped the rather silly silent treatment and decided to confront the issues head on. Again, I had a longish conversation with my wife - trying to find out what her plan was for us, her level of commitment. She said "she can't imagine us being together" and basically thinks that there is nothing to save.

***

(this section contains my thoughts about why my wife behaves like this - jump over to the next *** if not interested)

It's quite difficult as my wife (as the MC already pointed out) is a moving target - talk to her about what a great mother she is and gets a fit because she thinks she gave up a career for it. Talk to her about 'why don&#8217;t you do X, Y and Z (like doing a concert or whatever)' (or even: why don&#8217;t we do something on the weekend, just the 2 of us) then you're accused of having no family sense, being bad father etc etc.
Similarly, she mentions she wants all the best for our child, that this is the most important (while actively destroying the family and not stopping to do so). Equally, she states "she wishes herself, me, our child, happiness and only the best" - but at the same time doing actions to the contrary. Also, she mentioned her childhood issues - I feel sorry for her; essentially, she was packed away to a special music boarding school when she was 6 and only saw her parents once or twice a year. The parents paid for the school with, I guess, something like 50% of their salaries, so my wife from childhood on felt a huge pressure not to disappoint them. That's a tall order for a little girl, who maybe just wanted to go out and play, or have a good cry with her mum when someone was nasty. And, to top it all, her profession (classical music) and what it brings with it (essentially, European culture and values from the 19th century) are possibly as far removed from 21th century Central Asia like NYC from the South Pole.&#8230;. Add to that the many deaths in her family, the almost-rape when she was a child etc etc and then you end up with a multi-layered, interesting, admirable, energetic but sadly, slightly screwed up, individual. Her A has been a flight from all this - however, it made the whole cycle from bad to worse and absolutely destructive.
These contradictions are all within her, I do realise (and she too) that these conflicts and schisms only *she* can resolve. During the last 3+ years, while her A lasted (and lasts), she very much externalised all this and projected it to me as the source of all her problems - hence her anger and abuse. Well, she can&#8217;t do it anymore, and she understands that now - I'm not letting myself getting abused anymore. I still love her, care about her, and still want to walk that way together with her&#8230;. But it takes two.

***

Which brings us to the point where we are (I am) now. I came to the realisation that
a) Moving out/disappearing just like that doesn&#8217;t work [see my attempt of 4 weeks ago]
b) Just ignoring her & shutting her out, whilst living at home under the same roof, doesn&#8217;t work either
I also realise that
c) Continuing the see-saw like this doesn't work - I've been doing this for *over a year* now and, frankly, it sucks and it's becoming a bore

In the absence of a clear commitment of my wife to embark on a road to recovery, there's only one option left - a legal separation with the end of dissolving our household, sell the house, divide all property and work out a custody plan.

I suggested jointly seeing a solicitor - my W stalled for time saying we should stay together till she found a job. I told her I couldn't do that, time was up. She then said, at least, let's wait till next MC session on April 10. (I wasn&#8217;t aware that she has set up a session at that date - and frankly, as long as there's no commitment from her side, there's not much to talk about, or is there). Anyway, I agreed to the latter, but may see the solicitor in advance myself. We then discussed an admin issue - we are long enough in this country now that we can claim citizenship (scary thought, isn't it), I've already asked our accountancy firm to file for me and my daughter; she asked me to have her included - again: I said, sorry, no - that's up to you now, not me.
She also tried to pull the "you are just blackmailing me financially" (not in these words, but an allusion to the same effect) on me - to which I said, if my money is the only reason why she stayed with me, then our relationship is a non-starter anyway.

Sorry for the length of this post. I surely must be boring you by now

Regards
Nick123 from London

Nick-

Wow, you're options here really are limited by your W refusing to leave the house. My only suggestion, if you hadn't already planned to do so, would be to carry out the separation in conjunction with Plan B. I can certainly relate to your predicament with regards to being at a stand still until your W goes for help. I can't imagine anything more frustrating in this world than to see the one you love the most run from their problems and not be able to do a damn thing about it. You can still wield alot of influence on the outcome though so good luck!

Hey. Don't be apologetic about your posts. Even if you are just kidding. You shared a lot of useful information and if you find it helpful, then keep posting. And as long as you keep using decent-sized paragraphs, I (and others) will keep reading. And not being bored.

Frankly, some other thread writers will say everything in one humungous paragraph and that just makes me go blind.

It really sounds like what you're doing (setting boundaries, but leaving the door open) is the best. I'm glad you're realizations are helping you out of this limbo. Good luck, no matter how it turns out.

Hey Mr Nick123,

I read your post. That's not good, where you are right now, I'm sorry for you. But, ain't there always a but - have you given up on the M or are you still willing to try? Where do you stand on this?

Hi Nick,

sorry I haven't been around over the last few weeks - work and holiday have conspired.

Sad to hear that things are still tough - but as I said on your previous thread I see so much hope as I know you do - the question is whether you want to continue holding out and even if you want to can you without ending up draining the love you have?

Only you can answer this question. One thing I want to ask - i caught up on your last thread but still don't understand why:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Moving out/disappearing just like that doesn&#8217;t work [see my attempt of 4 weeks ago]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that for me moving out wasn't going to plan B but a chance for me and my WW to have some seperation / space etc whilst she thought about what she wanted. Would this be workable for you two? Allow you to avoid: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ignoring her & shutting her out, whilst living at home under the same roof </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">?

ATB

bowd

Litchfield - yes, options are somewhat limited. Separation, if it comes to that, will be a break point of course for plan B. It will also give me enough space hopefully to stay sane and figure out in detail how life without this family will be like.
Est - yes, posting helps. When I write down what happened, and what I'm thinking and feeling, it sort of becomes manageable. Plus of course, your input and views always challenge me and give me fresh ideas. Thanks!

Blown Away - No, I haven't given up on my marriage yet. But I came to a strong realisation that all the hope and wishful thinking and good deeds might simply not be enough. In fact, it might even feed the ongoing circle. I have learnt, I have improved, I am doing things differently, I am seeing mistakes I have done in the past for what they were, I have grown into a more emotionally conscious person. I'd like to see it like that I've built my side of the bridge in our marriage. Still waiting for the other half. Specifically speaking, for me to stay in this relationship, or even to live under the same roof, 2 basic conditions must be met - a) all contact with little s**t to cease, and b) a firm commitment to our relationship resp. a will to try.

Bowd - Basically, what you are suggesting is a physical separation ("giving space") whilst still maintaining friendly contact and all. I am not sure if that would help - here is why.
Firstly, I don't think it would help my wife making up her mind. Simply, she would enjoy all the emotional warmth of our comfy house and my support. In a sense, she would be able to pick the 2 or 3 emotional needs from me she wants (security etc) and dump the rest. At the same time she would (will) happily continue to chat away with OM and feel herself "understood", "energized", "soul-mated" and what have you. Cosy position? You bet. Willingness to change that arrangement? Surely not. Ditch either or? You must be joking.
From my side on the other hand, the equation would look like this: having to pay for a house and an apartment, clutching at a straw of hope that, because I'm such a nice person enabling all this, eventually, she will turn around and fall back into my arms. To top it all, I would see less of my daughter and be pretty much alone.

My position is - either she accepts the full package, Nick with warts and all, or then not at all.

<strong> Question for you guys: </strong>

My wife currently talks a lot about "being in tune with her feelings", doing "things that feel right to her" as opposed to "being forced to do things which are against her grain". Which is sound logic of course, there's nothing wrong with that. It's sad to see people who are genuinely unhappy because they don&#8217;t/cant live the life they actually want.
HOWEVER, how do overcome a point in a relationship where she says "staying together doesn&#8217;t feel right" or "I will be in a role which is against my emotions" or something along these lines???

N

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>

Nick - I understand your reasoning and every situation is different.

All I know is that in my situation WW did choose to ditch the OM. It was not something I ever insisted upon - I just pointed out that our R would never be able to heal if she was still in contact with OM.
Now of course I set myself time limits on when / if etc no actions had been taken by WW that I would have to call it a day so it wasn't open ended. And of course lots of other stuff has happened since she ended her R with OM but was still in contact - which is now virtually zero.
I still believe that it is better if a WS chooses NC rather than accepts it as part of a bargain but I realise that for many it is an intractable part of the bargain.

Anyway I'm rambling now so I'll stop. As to your last question I'm not sure you can as it is either fog talk or genuine...

if it is fog talk then I don't know - and I do know that you have tried your dammedest to show your W the inconsistency of this with her reluctance to move out / seperate / move forward.

if it is true then I guess understanding why and how you got to that point is the only useful thing to do so that both parties learn for the future (or show it to be fog). But if your W won't examine the why and how - as yours doesn't appear to want to then it is difficult - and again points towards fog.

Hmm - not been much help have I? Sorry Nick - I'll sign off now. Keep running

bowd

Nick,

I am checking in less frequently lately- once a week as opposed to every day because I am trying to break my MB addiction and really focus on recovery instead of focusing on old wounds.
(I still intend to check in on a few threads I've been following from the beginning, this being one of them).

Despite the recent small setback I mentioned in a recent thread, I am doing very well. It's amazing-it's around the 2 year mark since Dday and that does seem to be an important milestone in terms of recovery.

An interesting thing happened to me lately. The A really threw me into a depression- a clinical depression. I was feeling very out of control of my life for a number of reasons. I lost alot of weight during the A, and then slowly gained it all back, just from noshing, right back to the somewhat, but not horribly overweight person I've been since having my third. I felt a bit like I was wallowing in this powerless vibe- unable to control my world.

Anyway- suddenly it was like something went SNAP!
I went on a lo carb diet- lost 5 pounds, and have another 5 or 10 to go- but the important thing is that I am getting my nutrition plan under control. I decided that I would no longer feel like a victim and wallow in my H's betrayal. I don't know how long it will last but I feel energized and focused and so clear that this is my life, I won't be a victim, I will make it count.

I know so many people out there who are in toxic situations. Either because of something that is happening to them or something that they are doing to themselves. Often nothing can change until something that goes SNAP inside them. It's like the smoker who knows he should quit and never can, and then one day he has that SNAP and he does it.

SNAP things click into place SNAP things are focused and clear SNAP you take action

It's interesting but from your last post I just get the feeling things have SNAPPED for you, SNAPPED into place. You sound so clear and focused. I think your realizations are completely on target. I am really impressed Nick.

Your behavior in a way is classic Plan A. You know how you have grown. You have done your best. And you are right to say that all that niceness hasn't done a thing to change your wife's behavior. Partly because things have not SNAPPED for her. She is stuck in a place of being the victim and it is all about BLAME BLAME BLAME.

I know it might seem drastic and un MB like to postulate selling the house but I do think it is your only option. Hopefully this will be a wakeup call for your wife. Notice she is already engaging in delaying tactics to keep her position on the fence. Maybe as she faces the future, she will wake up out of the fog. I sincerely hope so.

I feel your position as you have outlined it is well thought out and crystal clear. Stick to your guns, Nick.

Those are some tough questions with regards to how to handle comments from the WS of wanting to do things "that feel right" as opposed to being "forced" in a certain direction. I got the t-shirt on that one in C too and it's not fun, in fact it pissed me off to no end. Of course it's just another way of saying "I'm unhappy but I'd rather be happy".

I was wondering if you'd ever broached the subject with your C of how different the M would need to look if you and your W reconciled. For awhile I had a tough time with that idea and reasoned that, if R were in the cards, we'd keep the framework intact and make a few interior changes so to speak. Wrong answer....I've come to realize that any sort of R would have required major changes in the way we carried on with everything.

I guess what I'm saying is that IMO your situation is going to require wholesale changes along the lines of what espoir mentioned. House, financial support, child custody, all of it...It's going to be tough to keep even the framework of your present situation and save your M. Of course it doesn't have to be a bad thing but I guess it's human nature to resist, like I did. Good luck Nick, I wish you well!

IMO, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A... You are not doing a good plan A now, don't know if you ever did.. but that is what will bring her around.

Now, if you have to plan A with distance, and not be totally availalbe, do that... but NO LB's.

IMHO- Plan A is used to help seperate the attraction, whatever you want to call it to the op. I would help your ww imagine what you two can be like happy, that sounds better than showing her how angry you can be whiule she does this.. show her how good you can be while she does this?

How is your relationship with your higher power? I would turn to his comfort right now, as he can conquer all and work all miracles.

May his spirit be with you throughout this trial, you can find peace with this swirling around you. Peace is there, look to your Lord.

Hugs, H

I see your thoughts at not being there financially for her while she does not have a job, and she is the mother of your child. I would give her a chance to get a job if you propose cutting her out financially.

I see that I do not know your whole situation at all and I am only skimming the surface offering my humble opinion... so take this just as that.

But most women, especially those who stay with their kids at home.... rely on a man financially and that is a major need of most wives. So I would think before lbing by cutting her out. You think it is bad now, well if she moves out, you may lose much of the hold you have on her even trying to save the M.

Are the two of you in christian counseling? Have you thought of the Harley's? I see you are in counseling, but maybe it is not working on leading to reconciliaton, many counselors do not help couples actually reconcile and at times they can drive you more apart.

Have to go to work, but just wanted to add those thoughts when I read about your cutting her out financially , as being an option of yours. I am concerned you may push her farther awy and not seize the opportunity you do have to grow closer.

It is a fine line, you do not want to enable, but at the same time, you do not want to push her away. You know best.

Honey

Nick

I think the simple answer to your question is that all the time she is in the fog or in withdrawal for OM, those sorts of answers she gives will never change. You can't make her think/act/change etc.

I think I said to you before, she has to decide for herself to truly want to commit to "working" at your M. She may still not believe that it could be successful (as I often feel myself), but I was prepared to try, give it my all whatever the outcome.

Sorry, I don't think is much help, but still routing for you over here in very sunny warm North London.

Lisa

<strong>
Bowd: I still believe that it is better if a WS chooses NC rather than accepts it as part of a bargain but I realise that for many it is an intractable part of the bargain.
</strong>

Of course - but that's not the point, is it. The point is that having both me and OM is not a stable situation. Now, if she ditches OM as part of a "bargain", then at least we're on base camp 1. From here on, the conditions are in place for our relationship to move forward, to put the focus back to OUR relationship. Of course, it still can go all horribly wrong, no money-back guarantee, but it's worth a try.

<strong>
re. "it doesn&#8217;t feel right to stay together": But if your W won't examine the why and how - as yours doesn't appear to want to then it is difficult - and again points towards fog
</strong>

To give credit to my wife, she also now does some serious introspection, reads a lot about relationships and tries to understand more about herself. However, I do believe that it is possible to "rationalise" and "explain away" anything really - and the "it doesn&#8217;t feel right" is a bit of a wildcard really. And no, you're not rambling, but really helpful!

Espoir - thanks for checking in! I'm happy for you that your recovery is trucking along nicely. It really gives me hope to see that it doesn&#8217;t necessarily have to end in tears. Yes you are right, in a sense I see my options and the way forward much clearer. Why do you think my idea of moving forward (by separating, like selling house, work out custody etc) is un-MB? I think more it's the only way to implement a plan B, if it comes to that. It's the only way for her to discover what a life without me is like. There's the alternative scenario that she dosen't want to let it come to that - fine with me too, of course. In this scenario, she knows what she has to do (Non-contact and focus on our relationship being 2 of the things).

<strong>
Litchfield - I was wondering if you'd ever broached the subject with your C of how different the M would need to look if you and your W reconciled. For awhile I had a tough time with that idea and reasoned that, if R were in the cards, we'd keep the framework intact and make a few interior changes so to speak. Wrong answer....I've come to realize that any sort of R would have required major changes in the way we carried on with everything.
</strong>
Yes, we touched on it, but not really. To do that, our MC wants to have a 'mandate' so that we can work both on our relationship. If it will come to that, that will be one of the first things to tackle. I mean, we already have now a pretty good idea of we did wrong, what the other needs and how our behaviour in the relationship should look like. Neither myself nor WW want to back to the bad old days&#8230; but still an open question whether WW wants to make the changes necessary? What she is afraid of is to "lose her personality", "to engage in behaviour which doesn&#8217;t feel right"&#8230;.. of course, that would be bad, wrong, unsatisfactory and lead to unhappiness&#8230;.. BUT I *know* that my wife can fulfill my ENs, I'm convinced that I can fulfill her's&#8230; if she only would let me, if she only wouldn&#8217;t refuse to give me anything.

<strong> Honey </strong> Thanks for your contribution. IMO, I did and am doing a fairly good plan A. It's just that I've reached the end of the road. Look, how can I NOT be angry if she is in contact with him? I let her know that I am angry, dissappointed, feel like sh*t and feel betrayed. That's honesty. The key is that I do that in a way which is not LBing, eg I'm not shouting or throwing plates or anything. I think there's nothing wrong with letting her know that. In the contrary, I think denying your feelings and playing an act like everything was wonderful is plain wrong.
<strong>"I would turn to his comfort right now, as he can conquer all and work all miracles." </strong> - thanks for your wishes. I'm not a very religious person, so I can't really find comforts in this area I'm afraid.

<strong>"I see your thoughts at not being there financially for her while she does not have a job, and she is the mother of your child. I would give her a chance to get a job if you propose cutting her out financially."</strong>
Sorry, but you got the wrong end of the stick here. No, that's not what I am suggesting. I suggest a legal, equitable separation - including all assets. From a material perspective, it would equal the deal we would get in divorce. That includes CS etc. Thanks anyway for your contrib.

<strong>Lisa </strong>
"I think I said to you before, she has to decide for herself to truly want to commit to "working" at your M. She may still not believe that it could be successful (as I often feel myself), but I was prepared to try, give it my all whatever the outcome."

Exactly. It's her call. All I can do is do *all* in my power to let her know that I have hope, that it's not too late, that there is a way, and yes, that I'm pretty sure that she is THE ONE.

Nick,

HOWEVER, how do overcome a point in a relationship where she says "staying together doesn’t feel right" or "I will be in a role which is against my emotions" or something along these lines???

You do Plan A to work on you and start being the person she needed/needs. You do Plan B when you need to protect your love for her but effectively, the relationship ain't going nowhere.

My guess is you're in Plan A and trying to make it feel right for her. Then again, I could be barking up the wrong tree....

<strong>Why do you think my idea of moving forward (by separating, like selling house, work out custody etc) is un-MB? </strong>

Nick, I expressed myself badly in my last post. As I used that phrase I was thinking that some people on this board might feel that actually putting your foot down goes against the MB vibe. Some people stay in Plan A for ages. Some of those posters give me the impression they feel setting boundaries is wrong. I always feel a little weird when I give tougher advice. What I meant to say was more along the lines of

"Some posters here may feel your plans do not go along with their interpretation of MB....."

But I do, Nick. I think your plan is very well thought out. You have outlined a number of reasons that create difficulties for you to go to Plan B. Your logic is completely correct. You can't force your wife to leave, and you leaving teaches her nothing as she lives cozily in the house you pay for.

The plan you've outlined may sound strong but I am very much in favor of it. You have put in the time in Plan A and then some. And remember, you can discuss all the details of the house, custody, separation etc. There is always the chance that the cold shock of those details may wake your wife up out of the fog. You would have to get your house appraised, put it on the market, look for a new place to live, sell it all of which takes time. During this time, perhaps your wife will come out of the fog. I think only the shock of realizing she's losing you will make that happen. Niceness and Plan A didn't.

She needs to really know, with as much detail as possible what her post divorce life will be like, to even begin appreciating what her life is like now.

It may or may not work. But, even if you start the process now, it will take months to make it happen. I suspect by that time, if your wife is still maintaining her current position, you will no longer want to live with a person who is not committed to you.

As for your wife's issues- "does it come from the heart?" isn't that really her problem to solve? If she can't dig up some warm, heartfelt feelings for you after all you've done for her, then it seems to me she doesn't deserve her marriage.

I know at times my heart has not been brimming over with love for my H. I hold on through those times because 1)I made a commitment to him 2) those times occur in any relationship 3) I know that with a little work and communication my heart will brim with love again. Your wife needs to learn how to deal with those feelings and moments.