This is an R topic not necessarily related to the M. It can be as well as other types of R in our lives.

So my question is, how well do we individually recognize babble?

What is babble? IMHO, stupid talk presented very cleverly. Designed to throw most off balance. But remember you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. For those you who you recognize a higher authority, well......you can never fool that authority with any babble.

So why babble? Well that is another question up for discussion.

Why discuss this here? IMHO because there is a lot of babble thrown into our lives and recognizing it sooner than later could save a lot of misery. Even help us make better decisions. Definitely blow out the fog and smoke screen from A's.

A's thrive on babble. Can't seem to live without it.

Are we all guilty of babbling from time to time? Maybe, now for that question we have to look at why we do it and will we continue to do it.

Is this a discussion type of thread? You bet. Want to stimulate the gray cells of all you out there who are trying to figure out where your M's are headed and for those of us who have been there and moving forward.

Hopefully this thread will help a few of you newbies to avoid some of the pitfalls that some of us had to endure. I know the older MBers who helped me definitely helped me avoid a few pitfalls and even saved a few lives.

For that you MBers (U know who you R) a big thanks!!!! U deserve to be recognized for your time, patience and understanding..... all of which was given..... babble free! See I couldn't get better with babble. So for me I had to learn to recognize it, spot it at a distance and then learn how to steer clear of it.

Please take the time to do this simple excercise, I think it will help you in your individual personal recovery plans.

Looking forward to your comments.

Mahalo,
L.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Bumping up for some responses.... come on, I know a you great posters have read this thread!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Orchid,
Hi, I wrote something to you under my last thread. When you are the ws, can the bs spouse still also be babbling and not meaning what they are saying they want. Please read my last thread for I really need help deciding whether or not to make plans or not make plans like redhat suggested. Feel so lost. Where can I find your thread?

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: gonetofar ]</small>

Bump. Still looking for your thread.

ok, I will bite. First your definition is not specific enough, what is stupid talk? What does cleverly mean? For example, if someone presents a sound logical argument, and someone else has a negative emotional response (doesn't fit their worldview) they may discount it as stupid/clever talk. Part of the very real difficulty with relationship discussion is the emotional content, people literally have different worldviews, and tend to consider anyone elses stupid...this falls under the category of irreconcileable differences (that was for jeffers thread).

Nevertheless IMO there are sound discernible psychological principles that must be met for ANY worldview to be legitimate (ie not stupid)...and those principles are able to be discussed logically (although that doesn't happen as often as it should here). Likewise I think there is room to identify and discuss (keeping in mind the differences are ok) different worldviews....for example one area that comes to mind is the notion of "settling" for a given marriage, vs what is variously described as passion, fitting, oneflesh etc. Settlers do so via laundary list of why the marriage should be ok, and are heavily vested in the contractural view of EN meeting (and sort of keeping score ie lovebank etc.), and that who you are married to is not nearly as important as how they behave. Passion folks think that is fine but also think there is an emotional component, that love is not simply a decision, that it does matter who the individuals are (fitting), and that this is not quantifiable, but is discernible. Needless to say the two positions discount each other because they are different worldviews, and clash when trying to resolve dysfunctional marriages.

Similar differences come out when trying to define the practice of radical honesty (in relationships). Some think it is conditional, others think it is an absolute. Ditto privacy issues, some think being an open book in all ways is what works, others feel having some privacy is ok. Who is right? Well each can offer up good arguments, but the bottom line is these are different worldviews.

I personally think babble can be a few things...first rationalizations. Being rational is a good thing, but rationalizing is misapplying reason to support a choice that is obviously flawed. For example, an alcoholic rationalizing I only drink a little bit. Or someone saying a ONS is meaningless. In addition one is rationalizing when they try to justify a choice they normally would not choose...oftentimes this is by blaming someone/something else. As the issue at hand becomes more complex, and one is traveling the boundary between rational thought, and rationalizing it is sometimes difficult to discern, hence the value of reality checks from peers. If one is unwilling to subject their position to review, increases the likelihood it is babble. But one has to be prepared for those with different worldviews to charge babble....and as well, one has to be prepared for unreasonable support too (preaching to the choir), neither are useful feedback. The reality is it is very difficult to find reasoned discourse due to the many biases people bring to the table, and paucity of intellectual honesty in general, as people promote THEIR reality.

1. Why babble? Because people do not like to change, and seek to manipulate their enviroment. This is normal behaviour, instinctual, and requires a strong committment to overcome.

2. Are we all guilt of babbling, you bet. I have no doubt whatsoever someone is saying I am babbling right now...but whether I am or not, I know I have in the past, and will in the future...it is a work in progress (not babbling).

3. How do we recognize babble... That is tough, some is relatively obvious, but the harder stuff I can only offer guidelines.

Is it consistent with the persons overall behaviour? If you cannot even make sense using tTHEIR paradigms/positions, chances are some babbling is going on...but one has to always be wary of clarification failure. People jump to conclusions WAAAAAAAYYYYY to often, and fail to clarify, reducing the communication down to a conflict, at which time babbling is irrelevant.

Is the persons positon (even if different worldview) consistent with fairly widespread acceptable principles.

For example, one can make an argument that affairs are ok, a good argument, and in some ways (genetic diversity) they are...however (IMO) they violate a more fundamental principle, that being rational behaviour trumps instinctual behaviour all other things being equal. And one cannot make a case that affair behaviour is the best vestment of emotional resources in mate selection. Hence affairs violate a principle, and should not be chosen as a solution (over other better solutions).

Inconsistentcy, having different views from day to day, or situation to situation suggests babbling.

So anyways, thems my thoughts, curious to see what others think.

A suggestion, this is hard to really talk about without specifics (which is why I tried to offer some)...you might suggest some scenarios that illustrate your points.

re ws and babbling, no doubt a lot of rationalizing going on as the ws tries to simultaneously be a "decent" person, yet pursue something they want to understand...hopefully they do wake up, realize they have to make choices, and then proceed to do so, first by ending the affair, and revealing same. However, bs rationalize just as much as they try to "save" the marriage without even determining whether it should be saved, or what they really want. Many bs flat out say they are initially motivated by compeition, they are not going to "let" the op win...that is world class babbling.

Babbling: When the words DON'T match the actions.

Howz that for clariity?

L.

who decides?

and how do you deal with misintrepretation, when the words do match the actions, and it is the perception that is wrong (a sort of reception babbling by the observer).

<strong> How do we recognize bubble? </strong>

1. When the actions of the persons don&#8217;t match the words
2. When the words spoken have no meaning whatsoever to the current reality (like "I really wish everybody to be really happy" [whilst destroying a marriage])

<strong> Why babble? </strong>

1. It&#8217;s a defence mechanism
2. It helps justifying an unreal situation and trying to make it more real

<strong> Are we all guilty of babbling from time to time? </strong>

I would say it's a typical WS behaviour. However, Babble has a cousin called Hobble, which is words spoken out of hope and wishful thinking, helping to justify a situation and behaviour, which may be untenable.

I want to add the dangerous of babble ...

1. The Babbler (sender) will believe in it when repeated like mantra.
2. The Babbled (recepient) will believe in it when the recipient could not identify it and repeated enough time undisputed.

Bottom line, the babble could be the truth that one believe in.

I do a pretty good job now at recognizing babble. This only came about after listening to my WW for hours(?) on end and reading through Orchid’s posts on the matter. I am not so good at reverse babble though. Someone infamous once said, "The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it." I think that goes for babble. It is presented by the offender so well that they even believe it.

Why babble. I think it is simply a stalling tactic by the un-admittedly confused WS that usually throws the BS off the scent of the A. “I need space….” turns into “I never said that…” a while later. You know what I am talking about.

Are we all guilty. Yes, but not to the degree that the WS is though. WS babble is 1st degree babble(premeditated). Other babble is spur of the moment stuff, IMO.

-Luki

It is very strong in children when they try to explain why they "need" things they want badly but can't justify in any way. I used to argue, now I tend to laugh. Drives them crazy.

Actually, I just came by to give support. Been thinking about you lately, hope you are doing reasonably well. Shouldn't worry about you, still do.

Been praying for you.
SS

I like that definition: when actions don't match the words....

My H just told me yesterday that he was thinking about filing in April.

But we talk a few times a week, email friendly banter back and forth throughout the day, act as if things are ok when we see each other, etc.

What if this isn't babble, but him trying to please me, trying to keep the peace, just wanting me for a friend????

Thanks for the responses.
Nick, good response. Concise. I like that.

GTF, yes BS can babble also. No one is exempt. The problem is that babbling is not constructive. Not a safe way to live.

Redhat, yes babble is dangerous. If we think about it, would we willingly put our lives in the hands of a babbler? Hm.... surgeon, dentist, tax accountant, etc.?

Luki, You got the idea. I would like your input when I put up the next section. Need to finish fishing for more comments on this part first.

StillSeeking, thanks for stopping by. I am doing much better. I finally learned to identify the babble and look past it. Helps me heal quicker.

You are right about it being tied to those immature in their acts. Easy to see in children but it sure looks horrible on adults.

HMB You are questioning his actions because it isn't making sense but you are wondering if you are just wishing too hard? Well that is why it is important to pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. Work on yourself so that you are able to distinguish between the 2. It is hard, I know..... like many here we have been there dun that. Keep working at it. You are working in the right direction.

Lurking About, Guess you just couldn't pass this one up. I didn't ask a hard question. Maybe if you could post kinda like Nick's, short and to the point. Of course I could post more details but then someone would probably say I said too much and there I would be back to square 1 again. So this is a general question, designed to stimulate the gray cells.

Remember those WS don't like to give direct answers for fear it might incriminate them, ya know?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

To everyone: I am looking for a few more updates and then I have some questions that may help others get to a turning point. No guarantees, JMHO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks,
L.

Babble - is nonsense language. Uncomprehensible language. Its unintelligible sentences are bizarre. One acts and speaks insane. One chatters like a little baby. One makes diverse sounds, that are uncomprehensible.

Most of us BS's heard this babble. I know I did and told my husband he was babbling. But his voice is louder than mine. And also, his body is larger than mine. So I gave in.

To reverse the babble, is an action needed. As long as you feel safe. This could result in an actions that is uncalled for. So make sure you feel safe.

The wayward spouses babbles cause they have been taken by satan and his powers. Have you seen the movies of individuals being possessed. Well, that is the language. Uncomprehensible language and grotesque facial movements.

Just my opinion, and I really don't want to hear the babble anymore. Tired of it, and am afraid to fight back.

Orchid,

You missed the biggest babbler of all ... POLITICIAN !. Just listen to short bite or one liner from them during election. The sad truth of it, when it comes from WS, most of BS aren't equip to identify it let alone deal with it. My theory is since we use to trust and get use to WS, BS takes what WS says face value. BS has to learn to read between the line. We should catalog Fogesse sentences and put how to counter it at one thread. We have many threads around but not in one place like plan A thread. Any volunteer ?.

-rh-