I went to the appartment today and saw everything that needed to be seen. Clearly she has been leading a double existence. Nothing left to guess.

I feel really bad for her. It's clear to me she loves us both and has accepted this reality. I'm worried about how she will react upon everything going public.

We will have to pull the trigger soon.

Karl

If you're still ambivalent about your willingness to work on M, consider a clarifying test or "one more chance" just to further ensure you won't have any regrets about ending things, you could present a situation where you "know" everything. Don't say anything specific other than reassuring her that you do in fact know everything. And see if W is willing to come clean on her own. No anger or anything like that. Just a wistful desire for W to be honest. She probably won't but it would probably strengthen the "I did what I could" feeling.

Especially if she becomes really "remorseful" after OM drops her. That "last chance" offered before could be that pre-determined boundary.

Of course, if she does come clean, it sort of confuses things for you, but at least you know she was willing to come clean without a "smoking gun".

Just a simple description. This could go into lots of detail - just don't know how interested you are in the M.

While I do not envy you and how you feel emotionally and how your marriage is challenged, I think one issue you raise has been bent out of proportion, the double life.

Any affair requires 'covering' the behavior, or the "double life"...usually affairs aren't meant to be discovered. Don't take this double life behavior for more than being a basic element of how an affair thrives. Affairs happen because of relationship issues, whether married or not, it means there's a problem a basic problem usually in the relationship. You should consider determining the relationship problems and talk to your W. You both took the marriage vows for better or worse. Affairs are truly for worse, but find out why before you choose to make your marriage simply a legally binding document. It sounds like you love your W, and chances are W loves you too. Consider all possibilities before a rash decision that you might regret is made.

Here if you need.
mad

<small>[ March 30, 2003, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: madi ]</small>

Update.. feedback appreciated.

It's basically been a little over a month since all this has transpired. Feels more like a year.

This is a really hard time for me and her. Since D day we have recently agreed to a quasi seperation time where we won't share the house at the same time and I will have some time without much communication so I can just go "find myself" and decide where we are headed.

She has provided some resistence and defensiveness to all this and is under her own stresses now with dealing with family, financial needs, lack of job. More or less though she has recently chilled out and given me my space. She frequently tells me about how she misses and loves me, etc..

I guess I am torn on what to do next. Actually I feel paralyzed. There's a strong side of me that feels I have been screwed over like this for 3+ years (see my post in 2001) and deserve so much better treatment. I really tried back in '01! and was left alone to my own lonliness for all this time and the recovery phase. As some of you know.. it's not easy.

I know she's been through her own hell and don't doubt the depth of how lies and deception like this can torment a person. She says she's sorry and wants to do it right now. I feel like I was here 2+ years ago and don't know what to think or if it matters now.

But now that this is all out in the open (Everyone knows including the OM) she wants to build that life together I've been dreaming of for a long time. Be home, have kids, etc.. etc.. She's very aluring and has been this way for a few months. I know it was falling apart with him as he put more demands on them and she had to make decisions because it was becoming too much for her. I know they even discussed kids, marriage, etc.. the clock is ticking for closure on them. She had to make decisions and says she decided on us before it came out.

So we've not spent much time together recently and in the run of a day I change my mind 3x on what I want to do. She started by trying to push me into a decision or else. I simply didn't care and made it clear i needed time to chill. so she's backed off and is now being loving and caring with the occassional moments of defensiveness and how dare I put her on hold.

Well here I am chilling and now I feel like I need to pick a direction. If we do a formal seperation chances are I will eventually move from the area since I work from home and could simply move to where my job is and I know more people to support me through this. That would be a big step for me though and I do love our house.

All in all I am lost. To make matters worse I don't see how she can really know what she wants, although she says she is clear that she wants to be with me. The thought of her being in love and living with someone else this long (3 years+) and living this way and then being fulltime with me can't be a simple or clear thing. She said she made up her mind at xmas, part of me believes her, but I don't know if she really knows. Plus I feel confident she is still communicating with OM. He said he was done, but so did I once and I know he loves her.

Without a doubt there's a lot of resentments below the surface and they spring up now and again. She certainly blames me for being emotionally distant etc.. to drive this whole thing. There were times, but ya know if these moments we had of not meeting EN and distance were able to drive this life she had, how in gods name will be be able to handle the challenges of kids and everything else. Will she be at my side then? Life is not easy as we know and I certainly know we didn't have it so bad.

My wife has admitted that she's a very emotionally needy person, demonstrates envy or competitiveness to me, still does in fights. She went off to the big city job to prove herself, etc.. God knows she performed and it all wasn't what she hoped. He filled her EN while she was away, and now that he's done she needs them filled again.

Sorry I am babbling, but I need your guidance. I do love her and to be honest she's given me very little EN over the last 2 years. I have fended for myself on the strength I have inside. But when she does give it's amazing. She has the ability to make you feel so special. It just seems so fleeting to me and now that the jig is up it's there, but what does the future hold?

Your comments and input is always appreciated.

Karl

Karl -

IMHO, I think you need to decide two things:

1. Can you forgive her?
2. Could you ever really trust her again?

If it were me, I would have to say yes to 1, but no to 2. The depth of her betrayal and the lengths she went to to hide it would always haunt me. Again, If it were me, I'd be movin' on.

JMHO though....

God bless and good luck.

Gib

Karl:

I am also afraid that I would agree with Gibby.
You need to move on and find a woman who will appreciate and love you and knows the meaning of a committment. Your wife is a pathological liar.
The fact that she was able to live and have sex with two different men at the same time while being married indicates that she is a consumate liar. The fact that she was putting pressure on you indicates that the relationship with OM is falling apart and she wants emotional and economic support with you being her safety net.
The enormity of her betrayal goes beyond comprehension. Why would you want to be with someone who is the master of deceit and lying?
She is a head case and will bring you grief now and in the future. You deserve more than being second fiddle to her double life and her double lover. If you had a son would you want him to marry a woman like this?

Your feedback is appreciated, keep it coming please.

My rational side agrees with you. My heart feels like deep down the true love of mine is in there and seems like it wants to come out now.

I am not sure why she touches me so much sometimes, but it's a hard thing to ignore. Maybe it's because I've been longing for so long to have her 100%.

I guess I simply don't know...

K

Wow, Karl. What an awful situation to have to deal with.

I'm not a psych, but it really does sound like this woman has *real* psychological problems. Something along the lines of a sociopath.

I dug this up at http://www.psych-net.org/disorders.html#PER

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
Antisocial Personality Disorder - is a pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others. Individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder frequently lack empathy and tend to be callous, cynical, and contemptuous of the feelings, rights, and sufferings of others. They may have an inflated and arrogant self-appraisal (e.g., feel that ordinary work is beneath them or lack a realistic concern about their current problems or their future) and may be excessively opinionated, self-assured, or cocky... Lack of empathy, inflated self-appraisal, and superficial charm... These individuals may also be irresponsible and exploitative in their sexual relationships. They may have a history of many sexual partners and may never have sustained a monogamous relationship.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I call your attention to it because if this is what your wife is, it is likely beyond your ability to repair. If she does have a personality disorder, she doesn't need "life coaching" of the same sort many of us are getting. She needs heavy-duty hands-on help. And even then, she's got to be willing to get it.

If you were my brother, I wouldn't tell you to wait around and make up her mind. I wouldn't even trust her when she says she loves and misses you. I think you'd be very wise to suspect she says these things simply to keep you available.

Don't wait for her to decide. Decide for yourself. Most of all, protect yourself. People like that don't care if they drag you down with them.

I know you said you feel paralyzed, but ***this is your life***!!! You must take care of yourself.

I feel so bad that you have to cope with this.

Karl,

I am very pro marriage. I do believe your are deeply in love, in fact I know you are because you are posting here again after all of this came to light.

It seems to me Karl, that you are in love with an illusion. You love the person you THINK, BELIEVE, HOPE your W is. Yet, you know that what you THINK. BELIEVE, HOPE is isn't reality.
The very fact that she blames your for her behavior suggests an ability to separate her goals from reality to a high degree, given what she has done.

You have no children with this woman Karl. What kind of a mother do you think she will make as she leads them, guides them, and lies to them. This woman has serious problems. If the OM wants her let him have her, it would be just punishment for him. He will never sleep or travel comfortably again as long as she is with him. He knows what she is capable of.

Karl, there is no way on God's green Earth that you should take her back, unless there are major efforts on her part to address who and what she has become. I mean lots of counseling. However, you have given her a second chance and you say what she did with it. Do you think a third will be different? I don't.

Walk out of this now. Do not bring children into this situation. Leave this woman and find one that will love you. ONe that will be someone you can trust. Someone with her head screwed on straight so that she could be a good parent to your children. Your W doesn't seem to fit the bill.

I wish I could offer more, or better. My only suggestion is call the Harley's. They are professionals and may know how to deal with this, but I doubt it.

Must go.

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:

"It seems to me Karl, that you are in love with an illusion. You love the person you THINK, BELIEVE, HOPE your W is. Yet, you know that what you THINK. BELIEVE, HOPE is isn't reality.
"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Karl this comment from JL, says it all.

Just like a WS is in a fog of his/her own, YOU to are in a fog of your own making.

You are not a stranger to MB and its principles. You know very well what she has to do in order to show you she's dead serious about rebuilding the M. Has she indicated to you that she wants to do those things? If she hasn't then I would advice you to think very seriously about wanting to remain married to her and to have her be the mother of your children.

I suspect that some of the posters who saw me go through a bit of a meltdown this weekend will laugh at me for having enough clarity now to give you this advice, when I should really take it myself, but here it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do love her and to be honest she's given me very little EN over the last 2 years. I have fended for myself on the strength I have inside. But when she does give it's amazing. She has the ability to make you feel so special. It just seems so fleeting to me and now that the jig is up it's there, but what does the future hold? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of COURSE when she does give it's amazing. It's like water on parched soil, the smallest amount feels amazing. But you deserve to have your ENs met regularly and consistently by someone honest and committed to you and only you. You can do better. Really you can. And as TMCM commented on, would you want a woman capable of such deception and manipulation to be the mother of your children??

I know you will need to feel like you gave her a fair chance at things before you can really move on. That's normal. But don't be a doormat for too long. It eats away at us! Look after you first.

She needs help, and so much of it. The road ahead will be long, even if the OM moves to Siberia and no contact is assured. Have either of you been for counselling, IC or MC? Have you heard a professional's opinion on things?

Jen

Karl,

I'm one of the strongest advocates of saving marriages around here. But the fact that you have no children together, coupled with the apparent depth of her illness---it would lead me to recommend divorce. Appropriate counseling for her might help, but I would worry that she might be good enough to fool the health professional(s) as well.

This forum is excellent. As I deal with this I find that coming here really can be helpful.

It's been 7 weeks since I learned of my wife's continued affair. It's continued to be rough but certainly gets much better every day now. I want to expand on my thoughts from before and respond to others.

While my wife's behavior is certainly inexcusable and severe, I can see the depth of the 'fog' she was in and then how it simply became a part of her life. I think the deception simply became a way of life and no longer was even like deception, but merely a way of life. She received value from both relationships and hung on to that dearly. In many cases she was willing to irrationally rage for it, point blame and excuses at me, create reasons, but in the end she was away 75% of her week (her choosing) and simply could not be alone no matter what.

I'm less inclined to find serious disorders here as I am to see simply a weak, insecure person who needed to rebel and be emotionally filled at any cost.

While my understanding of all this is becoming clearer over time, what I find so troubling is the length of time this went on and the ease at which she was able to risk us in times of conflict. I certainly became distant and wasn't a stellar EN husband, but frankly I was a part-timer and was worn down.

We talk a little now, and that kind and loving personality is present. She wants all to return to normal like the first few years of our relationship. The irony is that she says she can now focus on us because she realizes that she never truly gave 100%, and importantly she can accept my/our faults and not rebel or become resentful from them but learn to work on them, etc..

My first instinct was to run, but now I am not so sure that this whole journey has not seperately brought both of us to a place in our heart where we may be able to connect and make a go of it. I used to listen to her and think time and time again how immature and lost she was from this relationship/affair and it's issues (fog). Now I hear someone who may see where it all went wrong and wants to make it right.

I am still searching as you can imagine, this is my life, and I've appreciated all the feedback.

I am coming back to this forum because there's been a lot of "move on" feedback, but I need to hear other perspectives as well. There's been a lot of good over the last few years and I don't want to discount that.

Are there reasons try, or things maybe I am not considering? If so, how do I test this and know?

Karl

KARL

There are 2 fogs, hers and yours. Don't get into your own fog over what the reality is here.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Cut your losses and run for the hills.

Don't martyr yourself and try to "save" her at the same time.

This is either a very sick person or a very cold calculating one.

DON'T GET HER PREGNANT!!!

Good Luck

<small>[ May 18, 2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

I believe Blindsided nailed it on the head. There are two people in the fog: you and her. She has spent 75% of the time during the past two years living together and having sex with her boyfriend while being married to you. The other 25% she did not put out a great deal of effort for you. She lived two lives. She sounds very calculating. Her relationship with the OM is blowing up and now you are thinking that you should forgive her because she wants you back? You are in such denial. If you had a son and he asked you what should he do that he found out for the last 2 years his wife spent 75% of the time living a double life with a man she loved and talked about
getting married and came home to him on the weekends only what would you say? You are really short changing yourself. Don't you feel you deserve to be with a mentally healthy woman to love and have children with? Only a cold and calculating woman or a psychotic could have done what she did to you. Would you really want this type of woman to raising your children? I wish you luck because this woman finds it so easy to fool and cheat on you that you in for a continuous world of hurt and pain. It is your choice and some people enjoy it. I hope you are not one of them. I wish you luck.

Hi Karl! I'm in agreement with the other Posters - RUN FOR IT! She has LIVED LIES with you for the past 2 years. Why would she want to stop lying now? You just can't trust liars - sorry, I was married to one and I know just how FAST they can turn on you.
Harold

You need to step back completely from her by moving out into your own place and try to look at this situation more objectively. What you are doing now is trying to rationalize her double life and putting a positive spin on it. You should re-read your posts over the past few years to remind you what you have gone through. Use "search" to find these posts.
If you decide to stay with her please do not have children. They do not need to grow up in another divorced home.

Could it be that the fact you are considering working it out with her is a reflection of how you are seeing yourself? I'm sure you don't want to live with the fact that she lied this way because that's who she is and "YOU DIDN'T GET IT." No one wants to think, "I'm an idiot, how did this happen, how could I not have known...." It happened to me a long time ago and when I was at the point of thinking "Hey maybe he really gets it now, can we can work through this" the IC pointed out that people like my X really had to bottom out before any real change was possible. He was right. I dumped him, the OW took him and her life has been a miserable mess since.

I don't know if I'm expressing my thoughts clearly... I wonder if it's easier on you to think maybe you can work through it because you think you're seeing something in her now that may not really be there. You already know she is GOOD at lying. And, anyone can say anything for a while. Ya know? I'd make her work for it. Long term. This is a BIG blow <as I very well know>, but please don't set yourself up. I'm sure she had already thought of what she would say to you if you ever found out. I'm sure she knows just what TO say to get you to bend. And, you believe she doesn't want to be alone, so she has to go after one of you... Not that you're the lesser one! I don't mean it that way. Just that she may have "decided on you" because she thought she could get around you since you're already married. Or something. <sigh>

I feel for you. My mess was 14 years ago and I stayed alone, single mom for 12 years, before trusting someone again. I know this won't be easy on you. But, please don't fall into the trap of thinking you've got to do ANYTHING to make it easier on her. Let her bottom out. She needs true repetence and serious healing herself. You don't want to think "disorder" right now... Well... lots of "weak" people do not resort to doing this!

Hang in there...
~Mae

<small>[ May 18, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: maeplus ]</small>