PLease check out last few posts on my last thread"S@#t has hit the Fan"

JUST got off the phone, WH called me at work, I couldn't get him off the phone! Even when I told him that 12 yr old S was here in office for a job shadow day!

HE wants to come up thurs. and sit down to talk D and then go to courthouse on fri. and file a Doityourself D?!

He went on to insist that he doesn't love me anymore, I need to move on and get over him, let's just do this quick, with or without the OW he is not coming back, he'll cheat on me again...and on and on. Very persistent, almost desperate sounding to do this, insisting that I say yes, ok.
I'm thinking, why is calling me now, trying to discuss this while I'm at work....
THEN, he says, OW has gone back to her husband!!!
Is he lying?? Is that why he's calling me here?
What does he have to gain by saying that, except maybe to convince me that it's not just because of the OW that he's not willing to come back?
How should I proceed? Should I view this as a critical development and what to do from here?

Didn't want to rush a D, but should I have my lawyer proceed at this point? Only reason I feel that I should, is he is threatening to quit union to access his pension(BUt does he need my signature?, I should find out)to pay for a real Divorce if I don't do it the quick & inexpensive way!

WHat should I do?
Should I ask for a certain time frame of MC before I will agree to a D? Is that legitamite request?
Should I wait and see if A is actually over? and regroup and reevaluate?
Help, advice please?
Is he still talking FOG, especially if he is angry at end of A?
Someone advise please!

L.

Is it possible that OW told H that he had tot get a D or it was over? It could be that he is being forced into withdrawl and he is doing whatever he has to in order to get his fix back.

STALL! Let him file and figure out how to pay for it...... I'll bet he will not touch his spnsion fund.....Just FOG talk......

dont rush... looks like he tries to hit a magic button by which all his problems, discomfort and unhappiness will disappear. the button he thinks is divorce. not so, of course, as we all know here from the 100+ different stories.
my advice - stay friendly, try to engage him on an emotional level, ask why he wants to do this, to which end, what he is feeling, and why, and what you are feeling and why. in terms of the divorce, be passive. if he wants to file, he should file. but dont help him.
cheers,
N

OW is not divorced yet either, and her H is putting the pressure on, threating cutback in $$ and custody. THere is a lot of money involved for her! I suspect the pressure got to her.
OWH is aware now of their A, we have been in touch, sharing info on their activities. He was looking for the proof, and now he has it.
Something must have happened since their "romantic weekend getawy" this past weekend. See my last thread and posts.
I do want to stall, do you think this is best?.

Hey....Read my Post "I am so Confused". My wife wanted the Divorce very quickly, in fact at the last minute accepted my Decree and want all the debt too, something I thought would never happen. He may be testing you. I can say that I am deliberatley avoiding the D. In fact now she seems to be coming around and calling etc...You never know. If you do not want a divorce then tell your lawer. My lawyer knows I do not want a D. He told me It may cist more money to keep continuing it, but at the same time if there is a smidgin of hope do not give in.

This is just my opinion and in fact I can feel being back with my wife in the near future. SOmething I NEVER THOUGHT WOULD HAPPEN. People on this site including MELODY, Q and my buddy WAT all told me that it is amazing how all WS think alike and follow the same script. It funny, kinda like you see those weight lose adds and the people look totaly different and you say there is no way that is them.....well its like being one of them cause you never thought it was possible.....sorry I am rambling,.....

HAVE FAITH!

THANKS for quick replys!
I need it, I'm shakin...things happen and change so quickly on this rollercoaster....
Thanks again.

H called late last night, I'm very foggy on the details, as I had taken a sleeping pill, but I know I ended up hanging up on his usual crap.

Then this morning he called me at work again, with a basic Insurance Bill question, come on, what's going on here? Not a very necessary call, and he was much calmer,matter of fact.

Is his roller coaster ride just as wild or becoming wilder than mine?

I can't keep up with his mood swings!!

Is this a sign of his crumbling fantasy, withdrawal?

How do I proceed? Supposedly he is coming up tomorrow to talk to kids and me about D. I know stall tactics for D are in order.

Any advice?

learnin,

Plan A your butt off and fillin his ENs !. If admiration is one of them, blow his head with hot air when you talk to him. He is in bargaining stage, yes it is critical. He try to make a decision and try to bargain with you to see if he could prolong his A.

I would not stall Dv but protect your self financially and legally. The outcome is the same, it would take longer. Let his A gets attacked from multiple fronts. I am glad A is out in the day light.

Again check your plan A list and do it. Read misapplication of plan A by Distress. Fillin his ENs to the extend he allows you, you are competing with OW. No LB'ed; no begging, no crying (annoying behavior), no anger. Keep your cool but don't take his crap either.

Buckle up, this is just the beginning !. -rh-

BTW: His pension is his and he could withdraw it w/o your consent. You could get it back (50%) if you are in CA or common law states during Dv preceeding. Keep the document that you don't want Dv. Go talk to a lawyer, not to file but to check your right, you need one anyway if he filed. Do you know that he might be ordered to pay your lawyer fee too ?.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

Learnin,

What are your plans about the kids...i would not agree to discuss anything with him in front of the kids...this early in the round of divorce on demand...

make this clear to him...no need to put the kids in a tug of war...and do what you need to avoid this...
ARK

HI , glad to see your posting . Now keeping up with his mood swings , not for you to do just be consitint in your mood .

D , well JMVHO and I may be way off on how to proceed with this so maybe someone else will chim in .

I would let him talk , make his case if you will .
THen I guess I would say something like ,

although I kind of understand your need to get this over with quikly , I am not in that same state of mind . If you feel the need go ahead and proceed on your own , I on the other hand think that with all the fighting and yelling lately , things need to settel down and not be done out of anger or any hastiy desions , and if I do this right now that is how I would feel .

The years we spent toghether for me deserve alittle bit more time befpre I am ready to through them away , it did not happen over night I would perfer not to end it over night .
I do still love you and would like it if you could understand my posission in that and I am not doing it for anyother reason but to be true to myself and the years we have shared .

Something like that . I mean just to stall and maybe for him to come out of fog alittle more .

keep us posted , be strong

I understood it as he wants to talk to kids, since we have not had any official talk yet AND also discuss D with me. 2 seperate discussions.

Things change on a daily(often hourly!) basis here
so who knows what will actually take place.

Thanks for replys!

OW's H called again last night. Wanted to know if WH & OW were alone when I saw them sat. night at the club I was at? (see "S@#t has hit the fan")

Apparantly OW is trying to tell him that they were with a "group" of people and that they are just friends. NOT!!

It sounds like OWH wants to believe her, he's really pushing to get absolute "proof" of an A.

They don't deny it to me, but she of course is telling her H a different story. I really don't care, let her H take her back, one less bimbo for me to worry about! She helps to screw up my life but lies through her teeth to protect her own and makes me look like the wacko in the process. Not that I really care about that. Of course I'm also pretty sure that her H is putting the pressure on her financially and custody wise, so I'm sure she's doing her best to stay neutral through her separation/D process. Plus her H told me that he would still fight for their M if there is no A.

She also tells her H stuff about WH and I'm not sure what her motive is, except to portray herself as his "friend", such as,
-My WH has cheated on me before
-He's going to leave me anyways, he doesn't love me
-I'm just waiting at home for him to come back to serve him breakfast in bed!
Seems really weird that she's saying this type of stuff to her H. Oh well, I can't keep up with all the lies, it is all so bizarre.
WH is supposed to come up today, will do my best to stay calm and no LB'n, but will remain firm about not helping him with a DoItYourself D, and that I want to work our M, and that I will be fine either way, with or without him!

I really want to stick this out and stall on taking steps for a D but...

Can it really turn around?
WH is so adamant about "not loving me anymore", "you need to move on", "let's not drag this out", "you are being coniving, etc."(because I'm not doing this the "easy" way and just letting him go and getting a D).

I know it is just Fog stuff right now, but I must seem pretty ridiculous sometimes, saying that I want to work on our marriage and that I'm not ready for a D, and he just laughs and says "Give it up already, I've cheated on you!"...and then the usual(see above) statements. He says there is nothing to save.

Yesterday, he came up. Spent a little while hanging with kids, he played catch with 12 yr. old S & I cooked supper, we ate and then played a few hands of Rummy with the boys. Nice time, not much talking between us though.

Then he asked me to meet him upstairs to talk.
He wanted to know if I had considered his suggestion of the DoITYourself D and I said I wasn't going to do it. WHen I am ready to move on then I will file for a real D. I wasn't going to dissolve 20 yrs. with a $60. form. I said I still wasn't ready to give up on M, at which point he said " the M was pointless, he doesn't love me, hasn't for awhile, and once again brings up our financial problems as being my fault...for "refusing" to get a job...(I have always worked part-time nights while still taking care of young kids at home!) He is so hell-bent on blaming me for our financial situation, and using that as an excuse of "driving" him away.
I said that he shouldn't be bailing on our relationship because he feels backed into a corner financially.
He threatend to make significantly less $$ in the future to impact support. He claimed to have filed a report with the Dept. of Human Services regarding my "meltdown" last week and called me a mental case(I may call to verify). He was getting pretty worked up and I was doing my best to remain calm. I told him he couldn't scare me with those tactics, that I have truth on my side, that getting emotional was a result of the past 3 mos. and the A taking it's toll and that any of those things he does will ultimately just hurt the kids.
He said he wanted to take the kids(2 youngest, 16 yr.old is pretty upset w/him) for the weekend back to his place(2.5 hrs away)and I said fine, I couldn't stop him, but to please consider their well-being and not introduce them to OW. He said, well he couldn't control who shows up at the playground! UUGGH.
I ended up telling him to leave, he was pretty wound up, he said he already checked with the Sheriff's Dept. and they said that I couldn't make him leave.(I highly doubt that he called or that I couldn't have him removed)
He did leave and told the kids that he would be back today to get them after school.
16 yr.old S was visibly upset, ready for tears,teeth clenched. When WH left, my S said he wouldn't let Dad take the little ones, he'd physically stop him, etc. I had to calm him down and assure him that they would be fine with him, he's their Dad and I can't stop him from having them to visit. He really feels protective of them, and I feel bad that he feels he has to play that role.
WH called later last night, 10pm or so, and said,if it would be easier, he would just come up SAT. to visit with kids. I said fine, whatever he wanted, I wasn't going to get into an argument over the fact that he had already told them they were going with them.
I told kids this morn. that the plan may have changed, and then he calls me today at work to say he will still come get them today after school!!UUGHH!
I do not know the status of the A. He made light of the fact that earlier this week he said OW went back to her H and how I didn't waste any time trying to confirm with her H (OWH had no info regarding that, but said they are talking). So someone is playing mind games here.

Do I proceed as usual, Plan A, should I file for D to protect myself & kids(will have to borrow money to do so?)Just looking at the paperwork drains me!
Wait a little longer? Plan B?
He's just so different...It may be time to preserve what feelings I have left for him.

It just seems impossible sometimes that this situation could actually turn around!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Give it up already, I've cheated on you!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very typical response. Most of "pre-A" would have said something similar, i.e. "if you ever cheat on me I'm outta here!".

The reality often overrules that braggadocio and bluster. Most WS's are "shocked" to find that their spouses still love them and want to recover their marriage.

You've probably heard it before, but all his excuses are directly out of the "WS handbook of lies and denial". They are so typical it sounds like a copy of a broken record.

Since I assume you would like to recover your marriage, even with the hard work and impact on the kids, then I'd simply tell him that if he wants a divorce HE is going to have to file for it because you won't and you will fight it if necessary.

Next, get a copy of the book "Divorce Busters" by Michele Weiner-Davis and read it. You will find a lot of helpful advice in that book.

Good luck.

Consider OW's H as a hostile resource in all this.

It would probably be helpful if OW and her H can agree to NC with WH.

Allowing OW's H to believe the "just friends" part is harmful to your marriage an an indirect way.

I think considering where your M is, I don't se much downside risk to more coordination with OW's H. It does seem that as long as OW's H is willing, OW will not give up marriage. She's probably cake-eating big-time and stringing your H along.

Just be wary of confirming a PA to OW's H until you know that Ow's H could handle it. The thing you want to avoid (for now at least) is OW's H kicking out OW for good. Alternatively, just confirm it to him in the most helpful way you can and see what happens.

If anyone questions your actions/communications, ask them to provide a reason as to why you should lie? Especially since M is supposedly all over.

4-yr.old D went with WH for the weekend. 12 yr.old S didn't want to go. This was the first time that I let any of the kids go with him since this all began. He has always threatened to introduce them to OW. Because I have not filed for D, I felt I could no longer deny him visits and I wanted to trust him.
Before they left friday, I again told him to please not do anything that would not be in the best interest of our D, not to let them meet!
He called me several times over the weekend to let me know how she was doing, and he was getting quite a kick out of some of her antics. He even left me a cell phone message the first night, while I was at a concert, that I felt was very thoughtful about how she was doing fine and getting ready for bed. Overall I felt our phone conversations went well.
Well they got back today. And of course, she met the OW!! He said she called and invited D over to watch a movie with her girls, he left her there while he went grocery shopping!!
I was upset, not so much angry as hurt that he is sharing my baby with her! I should be angry, but I didn't want to get into it. I was crying though. He said he was sorry, he " misunderstood" me, thought I said to use his best judgement! Some judgement!!
He said he was sorry and that if he knew I'd be this upset he wouldn't have done it. Come on, of course he knew it would upset me! But I can't trust my own perceptions anymore, he seemed to be genuinely sorry and he kept looking me in the eye for long moments and not moving away physically, as if he wanted to touch me or hold me.
Am I imagining this because I want it so much!?
I don't know, should I go ahead and file for D, try to get some limitations on custody and visitation?
Let it ride a little longer...I'm just concerned about the kids, especially youngest, she's so impressionable. Maybe I should just not allow any more visits for awhile. I don't feel like I am setting definate boundaries.
He said, she wasn't intoduced as the OW and it was a just play date type thing. Come on...I said I don't want OW playing house with my D!
IS there something wrong with me that I am not more angry than this?
I feel like calling OW and asking her how she would feel if her H left her girls with another woman? What can they be thinking?
Any advice or feedback would be appreciated, before I do something stupid, like call WH or OW.

Hi Learnin,

I know how this hurts.. the first weekend I let my wh have my kids was just a few weeks after our seperation, and my kids were 9 and 3... well they not only met the ow, they all went out to eat and the kids and wh spent the nite at ow's house while ow's h was out of town on business... woohoo....

Belive me I went more than insane, and I am now serving community service hours still due to charges the ow and my h placed on me after I went to visit the bar/restaurant where ow and wh took my kids while they ate, drank beer and played darts... woohoo again.

When I went there alone, my wh and his ow walked in together with her on his arm wearing every piece of clothing I so lovingly bought him... a jacket I saved up to give him for christmas... etc. Don't know why it hits me that way, but it does... ow even told wh I dressed him nicely.... I made sure my h had very nice clothes for his job/life and that was something I took pride in.

Anyway, I knocked her down on the ground with a big shub and it preceded to be a bit of a catfight.... Mind you I did not even think.... but I had not eaten or slept for 2 weeks straight. And that night had had some wine, too much for me.... so I was quite irrational... anyway....

Don't do what I did. I also made calls to the ow, and your note above strikes a chord... OW told me that wh made decisions to have my kids/our kids around her and that according to wh I was quite an ogar and also that SHE TRUSTED HIS JUDGEMENT>.. UGH UGH ALHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I do not think any of the calls to the ow or her h were productive from hindsight, they were not nice people , even ow's h. I would say, it may or may not help. Sometimes it does.. you can find stories here where people have confronted the op's.

I just hate that you are in this mess, just take care of you PLEASE while you go through this... do things that make you feel better.

ANyway, it was awful - most ow's have no remorse, some might, but sounds like she does not....

I would stay away from her and get yourself in ind. counseling right away-w ith the Harleys if you can.

Also, I don't think most states would keep your wh from taking your darling 4 yr old around an ow.... though some will permit overnite visits with members of opp. sex while still married. UGH. Also , how will you prove it.

Try to be nice and see if he will agree to not have ow around kids- that is your best bet... you can't control him... and likely the law can't either.

It does seem ws's should be jailed for their offenses, doesn't it?

I think you should treat yourself to some pampering time and take care of you for now.

I hate what all of this has done to me.

Are you on antid's? I would also strongly advise, since I have done that I have felt some relief- I was on effexor and liked it but do think it had weight gain issues, wellbutrin is working well for me now.

Hugs, please email me if you want to talk one on one... lisaannsmail@yahoo.com

I am thinking of you and keeping you in my prayers. You do have hope, but your h is so in the FOG.

Hugs, Honey

<small>[ March 30, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Talked to WH again last night about the what happened concerning our D visiting OW.
He is apologetic in the sense that he didn't know it would upset me so much, as he claims that he misunderstood where I stood on the subject.
I feel I was pretty clear.
However, he really does not see how could have hurt our 4 yr.old. No relationship stuff was discussed or displayed. He is adamant about not putting our D in a harmful situation.
He has agreed to hold off on further visits between our children and the OW.
We briefly discussed our relationship. He said that we have just deteriorated so much over the past few months(since D-Day) that he doesn't see how it would work. He feels that if he came home we would just fight all the time.
I said if we got proper MC it would help with the recovery process and that yes it would take some work but it would not be impossible to do. It would certainly be easier than starting over and dealing with everything that comes with a D.
Well, food for thought anyways.

learnin

I havent talked to you in a while. My H was 302 (court commited) for a week.He told OW in front of me and the kids it was over and he was staying with us. He has been home about 3 weeks. He has had no contact but things are crapy.I think he sill planning to leave.

This is so hard on the kids.I talk to OW we have become friends I know weard. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm glad my kids like her. If things turn out he leaves me for her. I don't want any more bad feelings than have to be. H says he trying but I know he still loves her. He has been handling it by never being home. This isn't a marriage I had realy hoped we could work things out. I still love him.

I guess sometimes love not enough. This limbo is very rough on Iv'e been just waiting for him to tell me. He's told me to give him space and I have. I things work out for you.

Hang in there,

Kathy

Hi kp6464,
Even though it's difficult right now(withdrawal stage perhaps?), try to keep positive, Plan A, and hope for a change in the weather. Don't give up too soon! Especially after all the hard work to get where you are. I'll be thinking of you.

Thanks Honey for your response. I too know the repurcussions from the anger outbursts. I reacted to D-Day with physical anger against WH when I discovered the two of them together in a Bar, when he should have come home to be with his family the weekend before Christmas.
I have tried since then to remain cool, but not always successful. Nothing like the angry outburst, but certainly emotional! It's hard to keep even keel when you are on a roller coaster ride.
It's also hard to set boundaries, and to be honest about how you feel about WS's actions without LB'ing. But I'm trying not to be a doormat and protect my children and at the same time Plan A. It seems contradicting.
I'm not giving up yet though. There is too much at stake.