ALthough she says that her thing with the OM is over.. at least for now.. she still contends that she never slept with him.. had argument last night and says just kissing.. won't even give deatils on that..How do I get her to admit?????

I understand that this can be the only thing you can think about, and your brain running around in circles.....
Look, I would assume the worst, and until proven otherwise, assume the had PA. I mean, didn't she say it wasn't "skin on skin"? Whatever that means, it reminds me of someone having said "I did NOT have sex with THAT woman". Feeble justification.... again: assume they had.

What good do you beleive will come from confessing she slept with OM? Can YOU handle the truth? or Do you want the truth as an excuse to divorce her?

its just that the well has been dry for both MM and Mrs.MM..for three months..she hads admitted to kissing thats all and says thatshe never had a chance to do anything or anywhere.. she wants me to trust her..she may be telling the truth.. however the OM called it off .. so not sure what other clues or this I can say to trip her up..or get her to reveal if indeed they did..

Well, do you need proof of something that you know happened? Do you need her admission to know the truth? Like I told my H, I know what you did, I don't need your admission, if you want to continue to deny it then you only indict yourself as a liar AND an adulterer. You don't need to "prove" to her what she already knows.

Not trying to put words in MMs mouth, but I suspect it's not about knowing if she slept with OM. I think he knows she did, or he would not even be pursuing this. The concern is truth, honesty. If he cannot trust her to tell the truth about what happened, how can he even begin to think about rebuilding his M? I know with me and FWW, recovery did not really begin until I felt like she was being honest with me. As long as the lies continue, there can be no recovery.
Michael

Michael, and I agree with that. But she doesn't have to admit what they both already know to realize there is a problem with honesty. My suggestion to him is to leapfrog the power struggle over admission of what they already know and acknowledge to her that he knows there is an honesty problem here. Just admitting the affair [that they both know about anyway] will not necessarily solve the problem and only leads to a power struggle in his attempt to drag it out.

Instead of trying to force an admission, why not tell her you know pretty much what happened already and help create an environment where she CAN speak openly without fear of reprisal?

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

My H tells me he never had sex with OW, and I believe him. The reason why is that it is consistent with everything else he has said. Part of what he was doing was telling himself this really wasn't that serious since he wasn't having sex, she pushed him to have sex, and he refused... and even last night he brought up that he didn't have sex with her and that means a lot to him.

Marathon Man - I can relate - I am now divorced but I still seek the truth but I know that it isn't going to do me any good -I know in my heart what the truth was - just because he continues to lie - I really know the truth but there are those nagging days that I question - did he really do that?? or is he really telling the truth??? And it boils down to I am not sure if he even knows the truth anymore - and even if he told me I probably wouldn't believe him because my trust is so shattered - So you have to decide - is I accept that she had the affair - and I want to recover - I want to rebuild the trust together - You have to some how get passed wanting to know that truth that deep down you already know... She will probably never admit it.....

You have to run extra miles <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , you are far from recovery. If she has PA would you still take her ? ... be honest.

Have both of you go to conseling ?, have both of you fillin all qustionairs ?. There is a personal history questions that touch about sexual history. The road to recovery is very narrow, you have to abide the 4 rules of recovery ... both side.

Have you talk to her honestly ?. Let her know your felling about this and it is a sand in the eye that could damage your M. You need this to recover your trust until then you would assume it as PA. She has the burden of proove not you.

What make you think it is PA ?.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong>Michael, and I agree with that. But she doesn't have to admit what they both already know to realize there is a problem with honesty. My suggestion to him is to leapfrog the power struggle over admission of what they already know and acknowledge to her that he knows there is an honesty problem here. Just admitting the affair [that they both know about anyway] will not necessarily solve the problem and only leads to a power struggle in his attempt to drag it out.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Melody,
I think we are saying the same thing, but just to be clear....I was in no way trying to say that an admission of guilt will lead to solving their problems. I suspect he is not as concerned about pa vs non pa, as his is about honesty. So, MM for the time being, I would forget asking about the sex, and instead concentrate on trying to build honesty and communication. On top of that, as someone else said, do you really want to know?
Michael

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">its just that the well has been dry for both MM and Mrs.MM..for three months</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How many women do you know that will have sex with their mate, if they are emotionally hurt?

Unless you have the situation of Karl (his WW has been living two separate lives without any turmoil in her mind), your W is behaving very much like most women.

Have you thought that maybe the OM dumped her because she wouldn't give in to sex with him? Many WW's only give in to sex as a way to keep the OM happy and thus keep getting their emotional needs fulfilled.

You ae all right/.. it really does not mattre anymore if the marriage is over.. what difference does it make..if there is ever going to be a reconsiliation which I highly doubt.. mind you we are still in the same house..the trust issue will be a big pill to swallow..none the less .. she says that the OM is back around and they are friends again.. questionis how long will it be before they start at it again.. she wants to buy a second house so we can live close together for the girls..only got God on my side hopefully to bring us back together before the S$%T hits the fan more.. the woman wants out and that it.. end of story.. so I willjust let it go and forget about trying to figure out if she slepy with him or not..The ads are starting to work so I really shouldn'tv try to add turmoil.. thanks to all keep the advise coming...

MM,

I saw some good things, and not so good things in your post. I actually saw some improvement in you. Let me comment and show you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ae all right/.. it really does not mattre anymore if the marriage is over.. what difference does it make..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. Your marriage is over. So is mine. The one that led to this point is over...and you know what? Good riddance! Both of you need to get that thru your heads...your marriage is over! Now, that being said, that doesnt mean divorce. It might mean a new marriage, as I am getting a chance at right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if there is ever going to be a reconsiliation which I highly doubt..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why? Why do you doubt? Because of what she is saying? Because she says she wants out? Come on, dude. I know you think she is serious, and she IS right now. But remember, if you have read anything here, affairs are an addiction. If a drunk was telling you things, would you take them as gospel? Even though they were "serious" at the time, how do you know whether what they were saying was because they were "under the influence" or not? Look MM, I can still see that you do not trust this plan. This woman you have known for this long cant possibly be like the rest of these WSs. Your wife is serious. And maybe she is. But she is not in her right mind. Look at the stats, if nothing else. Less than 5% of relationships that start off like her and the OM are, ever make it. Less than 5%!!! So the odds aint in their favor, no matter how "in love" they are, and how "serious" she is. The Harley's have a phenomenal success ratio. even when I was ready to give up, it seems that they knew what they were doing. And right now, I am ordering a truck for tomorrow so I can move my wife home! MM...until you begin to trust the plan, and trust that you and your wife are not unique, you will be filled with hopelessness. And then, any improvement by her will cause you to be filled with hope. And then you will push. And then she will fall back. And then you will be filled with hopelessness again. THE ROLLERCOASTER FROM HELL! You have to get to the point where you BELIEVE that you are not powerless in this. I didnt believe for 6 months after D-Day, and I SUFFERED for it. You have the power. she is lost, addicted, confused. You know what is right. You have God, the law, morals, ethics, stats...everything on your side. It is like these fools that are all worried that we are bogged down in the war. Oh my God! We are barely one week into it, and everyone is saying 'quagmire." Sorry...I got diverted there! But the point is...stay with the plan. Ignore what she is saying. That doesnt mean dont listen. Just take it with a grain of salt, pull out the truth out of the PB...and stay focused on the end result.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mind you we are still in the same house..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan A, Plan A, Plan A, Plan A...while you have the chance. IF...she moves out, at least she will move out having her last remaining days, weeks, months, etc with you as seeing some tremendous changes. Go on living your life, improving. Stop talking about getting things together, and about how you have changed. Talking WILL NOT WORK. the time to talk was before your wife left the marriage. Now is the time for actions. That will be all she believes. And thru the fog, it will take time to believe it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the trust issue will be a big pill to swallow..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNOW! My wife is moving back in tomorrow. You dont think I dont have trust issues? HUGE TRUST ISSUES. But, trust is not the main component of a marriage. That can be earned back. What is the main components are commitment and compromise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">none the less .. she says that the OM is back around and they are friends again.. questionis how long will it be before they start at it again.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, my wife's OM was in and out of her life as friends, and then lovers, 4-5 times over the last year Count on it happening to you. If it doesnt, in the end, you can count yourself lucky. but for now, assume that this is at least a 6 month process for her to get this out of her system. Until then, if you can keep from LBing, present a happy and improving MM, then you may find like TM94's wife, that she keeps pushing off moving out. But like my wife, even if she moves out, it is not the end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she wants to buy a second house so we can live close together for the girls..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She doesnt know what she wants. Fog talk. Do not help her do this. She wants you to help her end this. Let her do it all. And you will see, that she probably wont. the odds are heavily in your favor.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">only got God on my side hopefully to bring us back together before the S$%T hits the fan more.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ONLY? ONLY? You have God on your side...she doesnt. Havent you heard that God plus none is a majority? I keep asking you this...how big is your God? Is this too big a problem for Him? she has a lot to work on...and He is pursuing her. he will make it VERY uncomfortable for her (Read Hebrews 10). but, He is working on you too. He wants your faith, your trust. He promised to never leave you, nor forsake you. he promised to work all things for your good. He PROMISED! So, do you believe?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the woman wants out and that it.. end of story.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only end of story if you want it to be. I thought the EXACT same thing. So did TM94. So did a lot of others here. Thiis is fog talk MM. It sounds real. It looks real. but it is fog talk. Do not engage in fog talk. One of you has to stay sane thru this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so I willjust let it go and forget about trying to figure out if she slepy with him or not..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is an improvement. Easier said than done. You will not be able to entirely stop these thoughts. You will have to find a way to deal with them, to put them out of your mind for now. This is WAR now, MM. Concentrate on the plan, on the mission. Don't worry about things you cannot control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The ads are starting to work so I really shouldn'tv try to add turmoil.. thanks to all keep the advise coming... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The meds will begin to help level the rollercoaster. Once they do…get off of it. YOU are in control now. You stay with the plan, and she will have to subject herself to the plan. Willingly or not! You do what you can, let God do His thing…and we will celebrate a year from now Marathonman being at a new point in his life. And I am willing to bet, if you do what you are supposed to do, that Mrs. MM will be right there with you.

In His arms.