Again, I want to thank everyone that has helped me get to this point You know who you are. My wife and I owe you a debt of gratitude.

This past saturday and Sunday, we moved my wife out of her apartment and back into our home. Everyone is excited...my wife, the kids, my MIL...even me! We had a pretty good weekend. I can definitely see my wife pulling out all the stops in trying to make this work. She has tried to be easy on me, and to build me up. She is reading SAA, and even got the workbook by the Harleys, which has ENs, Love Busters, marriage agreement, etc...and she has asked that we, starting last night (in which we did ENs), work through the workbook. I can see her working her butt off trying to make this work. She even left me a note this morning (that she wrote last night) saying "Have a great first day of the rest of your life. I hope it is what you want...love, your wife." All in all...a great start.

There were two moments this weekend that were cause for some concern. The first happened while we were at her apartment. We were eating lunch on Sunday, and she asked if I wanted to know what happened in Florida (go back and read my previous posts if you want the skinny on this) with her and OM. I said sure. She told me that things were real serious at that point, and she had made the jump to go to Florida with him for a few days, see his house, meet his family, etc. Well, the OM's ex-wife, who cheated on him and married the guy, lives in the same town there outside of Tampa. Anyway, she got down there, and one night while they were having sex, the OM called out his ex-wife's name (it seems that OPs cant keep from screwing up...if hadnt of done this, I doubt she would have come out of the fog for a long time...they were actually very serious then). Anyway, my wife said it wasnt him just saying her name, it was the way he said it. She was hurt and angry. She spent the rest of the weekend watching him as he groveled, trying to make amends. But the damage was done. She could see that his ex-wife still held power over him (he has only been divorced for about 2 years). My wife realized that she would never have all of him. Also, as she watched what kind of family he came from, she realized "Do I want my kids involved with people like this?"

Guys and gals...she said this was the beginning of the fog coming down. Anyway, the reason for the concern was that her description of this, and the fact that they had gotten that serious (not sex...but that they were pushing the marriage deal), disturbed me greatly. That and hearing about the sex...well, I was hurt. She thought I was angry, and said she hoped that I wouldnt be. I told her that I do not have anger for her anymore...but I am still VERY hurt. she then said that maybe that was enough talk for today. I agreed, and we went on to have a great rest of the day.

Both nights she has been home, we have been very affectionate. Even at night and the morning, there have been intimate moments together, although no sex. The second time where we had an issue was last night and this morning. And it brings up my question for discussion with all of you.

You see, last night we did the EN questionaire together. After we were done, I noticed her top 3 had not changed since the questionaire we did last summer...which were Financial Security, Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, domestic support, and family commitment. After we did mine, it seems that mine had changed DRAMATICALLY. It used to be that SF was number one, and nothing was even close after that. This time though, I did even rank it in the top 6. My wife was shocked, and asked why that was...if it was because of the affair. I told her of course it was, and that I really didnt understand why. We went on to discuss the fact that our relationship always had SF at its core because it was both in our top 3 needs. I said that now that it isnt even in the top 6, I had been wondering if I was going to be able to meet her #3 need anymore, in the way that I used to. She seemed to be a little upset by this, but we left it at that.

This morning, after a nice intimate moment together as we woke up, my wife went to get ready. I had been awake most of the night, thinking of my EN questionaire. Had I made a mistake? Was SF ranked so low because of what happened, and the fact that I have been faithful (thus without SF) for over a year and a half while she ran around? Had I just protected myself by moving this down in my mind, even though in reality, it was still number 1? I sat up all night, and figured out that I was wrong. My ENs are as follows: SF, admiration, honesty & openness, affection and an attractive spouse. So, our only two ENs that are in both of our top 5 are SF and affection. And here comes my point (and question).

Affection I am having no problem with. We have been EXTREMELY affectionate over the last week. I feel very comfortable with her in that, and she seems to be headed there too. So, right now, the deposits we are both making into each other's love banks are coming mostly from our being affectionate to each other. This is a very good thing.

But, due to my wife asking me why I had ranked SSF so low, and then high again. This morning, we got into a discussion on this. I told her that she didn't want to go there, but she insisted. So I told her.

Here's the deal. Since I got to SEE what they did together (go back to previous posts to learn more on how I was able to see their intimate moments together), I am deeply affected by it. I really doubt that I will be able to get that out of my mind. I watched as they were together, and I thought I knew my wife. When I say this, I am saying that I thought that I knew what she wanted sexually. Up until our problems the last two years before I left for Bosnia, we had an amazing sex life. But as I watched them together, I realized that what I thought pleased her and what she wanted and demanded was far less than what she actually got from him. And she told me that sex with him was great. So, I am very confused.

First off, I really feel like I don't know what she wants in this respect. She says it was good, but I watched it…and consider it by our standards to be quite lame. Now, it may have just been the emotional context that made it "good." But I also know that my wife is very demanding in this regards (that is why her ENs have SF listed as #3). So how was it that she put up with so much less, but does not consider it less? I am very confused on this. Not so much in analyzing their relationship, but to understand how the heck he was managing to meet this important need of her adequately, when I KNOW better.

Secondly, because of what I just told you, and added to what I have seen, I told her in this conversation that I hope that she does not expect that we get back to the level of SF that we had years ago. She looked confused. I told her that by looking at them together had completely confused my knowledge of what she wanted in this respect (we were always "wild" and SF was a huge deal for us…not so for them...but she says it was), added to the fact of the betrayal, and summed up with the changes that had to happen to me to protect myself and to move on and hold on, that even though SF is my number 1 need, I really believe that with her, I wish it was far less. Now I didn't say this to be mean. I said it in the context of telling her that because of all this that I wrote above, I just don't know if I will ever be able to go back to the level we had before. That because of what I saw, that certain "things" we used to enjoy together, I can no longer do with her.

Now, I know what a lot of you will say. That this will take time. That we can rebuild this too. But first off, I should have never seen those two together. I believe that will haunt me every time we are together in SF. Added to this, you have to know that when I married my wife, many of my attitudes towards sex changed. I was a "dog" before I met her. Sex was something fun to do. With her, it changed. So many of the "acts" we did together, started having a different meaning. Well, when you see your spouse doing those special things with someone else…and now says to you that she enjoyed it a lot…well, it makes them no longer special to me…and furthermore, I really would be hurt if we tried to do it.

I basically told these things to her this morning during our discussion. All long, I had told her that I really didn't think I wanted to tell her this stuff, that it would only hurt her. But she pressed on, saying she wanted to get it out in the open. After I told her, I asked her what she was thinking. She seemed very hurt. She said she wish I had told her this before she came back. I asked if this would have kept her from coming back, and she said she didn't know…but she would have definitely thought this over some more. She then went on to say that some of these things that I say I can no longer participate in are key things for her…things she wants. And without getting graphic here, I just want to say that the central tenet of what I don't want here is I don't want her doing anything for me while engaging in SF. I don't mind us being together. I don't mind doing for her, etc. But her touching me or doing things for me…definitely not something I am interested in. I would go so far to say that if she started trying to do something in SF that was for me, that I would probably be so "weirded" out that the SF would have to stop.

Anyway, I asked her if she was really upset by this. That I was willing to do the things she liked for her, but really do not want her to do things for me. She said it definitely hurt, and that she wanted to talk more about it tonight.

Now, this need is my number 1 and her number 3. Sex between the two of us was always great, and never selfish. I still want to give unselfishly to her, and she seems to want to do so with me. The problem is that for some reason, I don't want her to do anything for me, except be with me and let me take care of her. And because of these mental images, and the fact that she has blown the "specialness" of all of this out of the water, I just don't see me being able to let her do things for me again. And just to give you an example, my wife and I actually have had SF 6 times over the past year. Only once did I "finish" (she never knew that I didn't…yes gals…we can fake it!). This has never happened to me…ever. But, while it would have bothered me before, it doesn't bother me that much now. Shoot…before, if we had gone more than two days without being together, I was a very cranky Mortarman. Now, even though she was very playful with me this morning (and it did meet my need for affection), there was really no hormonal response, while you could see (and she admitted) that there was a huge hormonal response on her side.

I really think the old Mrs. Mortarman is back, and really wants to be all things to me again. Even in SF. But, if I find that this is permanent, that there are things that we did together, that she did for me and loves to do, that I can not ever do with her again…will she be okay with that? I don't think so. And then what? She wont be entirely happy, because she wont have that full open SF relationship we had before. And in many ways, I probably wont be entirely happy, because SF is my number one need, and I used to be very demanding.

So, there it is. Kind of personal, but I needed to get this out. I am sure many of you will say that we will grow through this, and will grow out of this. But I know me in this arena. And I know due to what I saw, it will haunt me forever. And how can I turn this back into the specialness that we had (or even allow that to happen) when I have that vision of her doing these things, and her now saying she enjoyed them immensely? I know me. I just don't see me getting to the point where I will let her do things for me in SF. Affection? Sure. I have and will allow her to do things for me. But I think she needs to understand that our sex life will never be the same. And while their sex life never measured up to what we had most of our marriage, our sex life will probably not measure up to even what they had. And can she live with that? Can she live with my decreased desire and frequency? Can she live with me not wanting her to do things for me? I don't think it will go over well.

Look, some may say I am trying to punish my wife this was. And from the outside, it may look that way. I have even asked myself this question. But, I am not trying to punish her. Don't you think I want what is most important to me…and that is an incredible sex life again? I mean, it was one of the major reasons that we had our fall backs during our attempted reconciliations. We would be getting closer, we would have sex…and then I would do something to push her away and back into OM's arms. I just felt like that my sex drive had changed, especially with her. And I know that she will not be having her number 3 need being met the way she needs it met if she cant get back to what we had, and the frequency we had it.

Anyway, I am rambling. I am in recovery and happy for the most part. So is my wife. And the kids are ecstatic! But this one issue I can see will be the first hurdle to cross. And unlike the traditional male/female relationship, it is me that wants less and doesn't really want her doing anything for me…I'll just take care of her. I really am not sure how this would ever change because when it come to SF, I have changed so much because of this. Added to those images of her and OM…I think our SF will always have three there. At least in my head.

Comments welcome.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 31, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

WOW...Mortarman...I have to say that i read your post...jumped up and emptied the dishwasher...came back read it again....jumped up, straightened the living room...came back and read it again....
each time i was off doing some task the whole time I'm talking under my breath to trying to get my thoughts around what your saying...and really really questioning not your honesty..but your fairness to yourself and your wife in feeling this way...

bear with me as I "attack" this post cause I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying...but I'm gonna take a stab at it...and you as all are welcome to disregard what you need to...

Our human sexuality and our views are a journey...blessed are we/those that go on and grow through that journey to come to that place where sex becomes not just something that feels good...but something that is very valuable...

Sounds like you have worked hard on your journey and have come to a place in which you can grasp the depth of our Lords gift of human sexuality...so what suprises me and confuses me...is your denial and inability to bring your wife along on that journey....
It is my opinion that people capable of cheating on their spouses are no where near of truly "knowing" about their own sexuality and it's depth into ones soul....one's true self....
sexual intimacy requires a lot of other things that are non existant in an affair...logically , logistically, and physically.

just don't know if I will ever be able to go back to the level we had before

well you can't go back...none of us can...but that is no death sentence to future enounters...

And I know due to what I saw, it will haunt me forever. And how can I turn this back into the specialness that we had (or even allow that to happen) when I have that vision of her doing these things, and her now saying she enjoyed them immensely? I know me.

See you are kind of ticking me off (not personally...but in the are you hearing what you are saying??...)....
what you saying is that while you believe you and she can change in many arenas....you alone CAN'T change in this ONE????? Can't change or WON"T???

It rings of alien fog speak...i can love you...but I can't let you love me...I can be physical to you...but you can't be physical with me???????????

I am not sure I am making sense...but I'll keep pluggin away at this...

Well, when you see your spouse doing those special things with someone else…
Doing something does not equal feeling it....and people in affairs are in deep conflict within themselves and are not really in touch with reality....

Motarman deciding to forgive and forgiving are two different things....
forgiveness is a lot of hard of work...it is letting go of a lot things that we are holding on to...but remember that we hold on to some things because they are familiar...and that the unknown is scarey....
you have spoken of forgiveness and reconciling with her....so your actions must be thus...even if and when it's hard...and drawing these lines in the sand so very very early on in your journey of healing is disturbing to me....

I gotta go now...but I'm gonna keep stewing on this...and thanks for helping me get all these chores done...nothing like scrubbing the tub and talking to yourself the whole time ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am so very happy for you...and am just afraid of you sabotaging your own recovery so very early by making such grand decisions this early...

blessings to you and yours
ARK

Hey Mortarman!

I'm glad to hear that you and your wife have come so far, are living together again, and are giving your marriage one good shot. Congratulations!

I do think I can understand some of what you're feeling re the sex. My W and I had little terms of endearment for each other. Kind of silly, the sort of stuff every couple has, I guess. After the A, for a while, although she'd say she loved me and wanted to work things out, she didn't want to use those endearments. She said that before the A, she had thought that they MEANT something, and that after the A, she wasn't so sure. Given how powerful a force sex was in your marriage, and how personal it seemed to you, it's understandable that you'd have a very hard time after seeing (and I can't imagine how awful it would have been to have to SEE it) that your W could be sexual with someone else.

That said, though, I'd second some of what ark had to say. It sounds as though, frankly, you haven't entirely forgiven your W. Not for the A, not for the sex. You're withholding that from her. You know this, I'm sure, but true forgiveness means that you're open to having her love you, in every way, just as you love her. And that's really hard, because being open to her in that way again means acknowledging the possibility that she will hurt you again. But if you don't do it, I don' think you really can expect the marriage to last, and frankly I'm not sure why you'd want it to.

I'm not saying, of course, that you might not have very good reasons for being wary, for not quite forgiving all the way. You almost certainly do. And you'd be "justified" if you decided you ultimately just couldn't do it. But the answer then would be divorce, not continuing to live in a marriage in which you hold your spouse at a distance.

I do hope that things continue to progress for you and your W. You'll be in my thoughts!

Oh I am not denying the pain/hurt of the affair/physical emotional bretrayal by a long shot...
huge warning flags to those who go into recovery believing if you just sweep these issues under the rug...they disappear and all is peachy keen...

would never negate the pain...would negate the refusal to move through that pain...though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ARK

Thanks for the replies. I mean it.

Both Ark and Taxman raise great points, so I would like to elaborate on them a little.

First, I WANT what I had with my wife. I really do. That's why I am bringing it up here. I do not want to sabotage our recovery and our future. I know how incredible SF has been with us, and I know she wants (demands) that in the future. Why would I want anything less?

My problem is not my will, but my ability. Look...do I want to be with my wife sexually? Yes. will I? Yes. Can we have a pretty normal sex life? Sure, to an extent. but, without getting too graphic here, there are certain things that she and I did together that meant a lot more to our relationship than just the sex. They were far more intimate, or "special" as I stated above. I watched her do these same things for him. like Taxman said above, I listened to her tell him those phrases and words that were said to me. So now, when they might be said to me, they really will have no meaning.

Now, the idea of "fake it until you make it" is fine for women in the SF realm because that is pretty much easily done. but for men, it would be a little more difficult. Now, for me to do something for her, or us to be together doing something, I see no problem in it. And I believe we can get through that and have all of that going pretty good. but again, without getting graphic, it would be the things she does just for me that I feel like I can no longer take. Right now, I REALLY dont want them. And her doing these, and me receiving these, was the top thing for BOTH of us over our marriage. So she is not only hurt by my not being able to let her do this, she also feels like she is missing out on something she really wants to do and enjoys.

Like I said, it is not my will. I want our sex life back. I want her to do for me. I do. she is the most unselfish woman I have ever met when it comes to this. But, my mind is clouded with the views and voices of what they were doing...of her doing and enjoying this with him. So, for us to be together is fine. the demons go away. But for me to sitback and let her take care of me...I start getting HIGHLY anxious, hurt, etc as those views come back into my mind. And needless to say, what she is trying to do for me is all for naught.

I DO NOT WANT TO HURT HER! And I know this is, and will, hurt her. But I am not sure I can get past this. I do know that if I can, it will take a LONG time. I am trying to express this to her. That I would like to get past it. But, if I cant, I dont know what she will do our feel. And in the meantime, if it takes months or years for me to get to the point to allow her to do these things, will she be able to accept that.

I need a lobotomy. I need these visions out of my head. I need the voices out too. When she tells me in the future "that was the best I ever had," or any other terms of endearment that she used with me and then used with him, they will not only sound hollow, it may also raise the hurt. I think that there will probably have to be a new vocabulary because the old things she told me, that she also used with him, just will not be good to tell me again.

I hope I am explaining myself here. I look forward to your responses and maybe helping get thru this. Because I want us to be whole again, and I want to be the guy giving her what she wants and needs. But right now, I just dont see myself allowing her to do selfless acts in the sexual realm for me. The response from me (and you KNOW what I am talking about) will not be what she expects and hoped for And that will create a lot of problems for her. And also me, because it will cause me great anxiety. And this with a guy who used to be so sure of himself when it came to these things. i have never told my wife no (even when I had a 103 degree temp one time). I havent said no to sex, nor anything she has wanted in sex. But I told her no to certain things yesterday. That I am just not capable right now of her doing things for me. That I will do for her, or we can do things together. But I just cannot let her do those things for me.

So, I hope this clarified what is going on somemore. I am trying. Believe me.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 31, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortarman, why not start slowly with those SF things you have trouble with without the pressure to perform them? Eventually you may be able to do them again without all the bad memories of her with OM. Just let your W know ahead of time, so she won't get depressed if you are not able to do them. It might even work as a tease that could enhance and increase sexual enjoyment for both of you.

Hey Mortarman!

I pretty much understood the issue from your first post, but thanks for the additional clarification! I know you're hurting, and I know you don't want to hurt your wife, and that your response when she tries to fellate you (I'm assuming this is what you're talking about, but it doesn't really matter what the specific act is, I guess) are to some extent involuntary.

If it helps, I don't think that you're alone in your feelings. Just about every BS on these boards has certain things that just totally set them off, whether it's something as innocuous as a turn of phrase their WS used during the affair, or a particular song or place, or a particular sexual act, or whatever. While your "trigger" about the A is entirely rational (I mean, it makes sense to me why it upsets you), it doesn't even necessarily have to be. It's pretty person-specific, is my sense.

I guess where I part company with you is in the sense I get from your posts that you're completely helpless to change this, or that it's "not your will" to be acting like this. Sexuality is about 90% mental/emotional, and while you can't necessarily rigidly control every single thing your subconscious throws up at you, you can train yourself to respond differently. If pictures and images come unbidden into your head at a particular point, you can consciously try to banish them. That takes a lot of discipline, and work, and it won't succeed some time. But it might help, you know?!

I like TooMuchCoffee's idea of building up slowly to it. Your W should be patient enough that if it takes you a while to do that specific thing, she can wait. Eventually, if you're willing to try the specific act again at some future point, and find yourself getting upset, try consciously forcing yourself to shift your thoughts to a happy memory of you and your W. Maybe the first time you held your children together, or your first Christmas as a couple, or something really nice that she did for you one time. Try to think of times when she's been giving, and you've really needed her, and she's come through for you. I know you have those memories. Just about every couple does. Perhaps you just need to tap them at the right time.

Again, I totally understand your hurt and difficulty with this issue. I think everyone on the board does. But I'd reiterate again that you need seriously to try to forgive your W for what she did, and that means opening yourself to her fully, spiritually, emotionally AND physically, even though that feels really risky right now. It's a tall order, I know. But if this specific act is that important to you, your W and your marriage, I think you're going to have to try. My best to both of you!

MM,

First question. Are you two in counseling? If not you need to be. Really this is pretty tough stuff for a "do it yourself" thing. I would recommend the Harley's because they hopefully can do it on a schedule that suits you both.

OK a few thoughts.

1. I was reading this thinking how is she going to study, work, and help with the kids, and deal with all of this. You are also very very busy at work, have the kids, and are dealing with all of this.

So my first recommendation to both of you is go slow, really slow. MM would you rather she almost throw all of this away for a man she really didn't care for? It seems to me that she darned well had really felt something for this guy to have caused all of the pain and dislocation that she has. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Do you see what I mean? I have read here a long time, and I know you are going to be very hurt by many things, but I also know that you will come to realize that YOU are the one she wants.

2. Do you notice that she keeps asking if you are happy she has come back? She is having a lot of guilt and even more uncertainty about whether you can heal from this. That is really good. Tell her you are here for the long run, and mean it.

3. OK, the sex stuff. Too much for me address right now, but some thoughts. I think your first EN result is right, it is #6. It seems that EN's move up and down the list depending on what a person needs most. You need other things MORE right now than you need SF. Your SF will work it's way back up once time has worked its magic. So give it time. You both would be wise to do this survey periodically.

As for the special acts, this is tough. I think what makes the acts special, isn't that you two invented them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Or that you two are the only ones doing them. It is that you care and love one another, that is what makes them special. If as you indicate they are particularly strong needs of your W, it is little wonder she "demanded" that OM do them. But, clearly him doing them didn't sway her heart. Now did it? Be honest with me MM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The specialness will come back as you two begin to see one another as special to the other person. From everything I have read your images will be with you for a few months, BUT they will diminish as you begin to replace them with new images of you and your W.

I know there is more to say, but I think you both need to go slow, take good care of each other, are reassure each other that you are in this for the long haul. She has hurt you deeply, and I think she knows this but MM, you are going to have to heal yourself. Let her be there for you, but remember that you both need to give this time.

As for you doing for her and her not doing for you, please think about this. It is good that you will do this, but your healing will occur faster if you let her do things for you. As several have said "small steps", but let her help build new pictures in your mind MM. That is after all why she has come back.

This is tough stuff, trust the EN questionaire, but realize that the order of importance will adjust itself as YOU heal from this.

God Bless,

JL

HI there
just anote to say congrats on the outcome of your journey..I wish I can tell you that things for me are going as well as planned but they seem to be going from bad to worse.. but that is another story..Please take your time with your wife.. youve come a long way..well done Mortarman.. I hope things do work out for me and mrs. Marathonman as well
thanks for all the tips..I raelly am trying my best here but can sure use some more insight..
I wil continue to pray for you and your wife..

Hi Mortar!

Well your post brought me out of semi-post-retirement...

First off I can't tell you how happy I am to hear that you are both well on your way into Recovery - this is what you have wanted, worked for and achieved.

At almost two years into our recovery, I completely understand and I know all to well the point where you are at this very moment.

The best piece of one-line advice I can offer you is...

SLOW DOWN !!!!

It is very easy for you to conjure up just about whatever "mental image(s)" you want - whether real or not! I will admit, mental images are one of the hardest points of recovery. They can visit and visit often. But if you have visited the recovery forum I can only echo what has been said there hundreds of times -- "It does get better with time."

It's WAY too early for you to be saying "but I really do not want her to do things for me." Unfortunately the roller coaster ride you have been on is NOT over as now you have to ride it out with your emotions.

Learn to love again! I think you will find a big surprise at the end of that sentence

One other small piece of advice I would offer is, maybe "calm-down" on some of the "here's what happened honesty conversation." You will see this topic discussed often and like everything else on this forum, there is no definitive answer. Some need to know every last detail and some, none. Myself I was "in between" and I always stopped just short of the intimate details. The places (hotel, beach, etc.) yes I am curious, but what does that knowledge get me (other than depression)? Positions and other details -- NO THANKS -- don't care to hear 'em! I know for me, something like hearing he called out his ex's name during sex is TOO MUCH and would be enough to turn my stomach 10 times!

Somehow Mortar, you and Mrs. MM need to establish boundaries that you want your ears to hear. I know one of mine is, "let ME ask, if I don't, I don't want to know." I just find it a little weird that she asked you if you wanted "to know what happened in Florida?" Actually I find it very weird!

It is hard enough for us to deal with this let alone extremely graphic language and images.

Mortar, "let this flow a little bit." It's too early to say "I just don't see me getting to the point where I will let her do things for me in SF." WAY TOO EARLY! IMHO, stop looking down that road because it is a long one. Stop and take ONE DAY AT A TIME similar to a seven step program. Work together, develop your relationship AGAIN more importantly develop your love for one another AGAIN and then we can discuss these other points.

Recovery is not easy. I found it every bit as hard as dealing with the A itself. You can be assured that if you continue to work at this and "let it flow," it will work and your visions, images and thoughts of the A will diminish. The Harley's say about two years. I remember thinking TWO YEARS, I'll never make it! Two years for us is within the next couple of months and it is so much better that it was. Yes there are still a few triggers, but few and far between.

You can make your M work once again - just don't let a few hills and obsticles get in the way!!!

MITT

Thanks for the responses. They are very helpful. We had a pretty good day yesterday, and my wife is still being very affectionate. A few tense moments, but nothing big. The sex thing did not come back up last night though.

I would like to answer a few of the things all of you posted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman, why not start slowly with those SF things you have trouble with without the pressure to perform them? Eventually you may be able to do them again without all the bad memories of her with OM. Just let your W know ahead of time, so she won't get depressed if you are not able to do them. It might even work as a tease that could enhance and increase sexual enjoyment for both of you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Coffeeman, this is what I was trying to do when we discussed this. I will go into it more below in response to some other posts. But my idea was to let her know now my problem (because she brought up SF while we were doing the questionaire, and wanted to know why my SF need fell from number one to number 8). She is very hurt by this, and somewhat confused because this was always a central tenet of our relationship. I told her it isnt us being together, it isher doing things for me that I just cant handle right now. But, as I said, she is very demanding in this area (she has almost a man's drive and outlook when it comes to SF...which was always a good thing for me!!!). My decreased desire for her, as well as her not being able to do the things she enjoys, is essentially a major LB on my part. It isnt me taking things slow. I have no choice when it comes to this. It is her realizing that she has to take it slow, and realizing that with time, some of this may come back. And some of it might not.

Taxman...well, you are pretty much on with one of the things that she just cannot do for me. believe me, I would love to change this. And mental images may help, as you said. But what if they dont? My wife does not do well with rejection, especially in this area. For me to push her away from doing things for me would be a HUGE LB, and would hurt her self-confidence and ego. I think she is the one really starting to push the sex thing down the road, and it will be her that actually makes the moves for a long while...not me. That is not real good because her SF need is still number three and she has to have it. And as the questionaire says, it isnt just getting it, it is also getting it with the frequency and the way she likes it. And that may disappoint her because what used to be a phenomenal sex life (even after 8 years, things had not slowed down...yes, I was a VERY lucky man!), may have been ruined by what she has done...and more specifically what I saw and heard. Believe me when I say, I would love these images to go out of my head so I can get this all back. And most of it will come back, I believe. I think my desire, and the frequency will definitely come back with time. Look, I have never gone without "it" more than 2 weeks since basic training 20 years ago. And most often, not more than 3-4 days. Now, with her at least, I can take it or leave it. I love my wife very much. And the times we are spending together are great (it is almost like I have turned into the woman...she is fired up over sex, and I just want to be "held"...what a switch!!). Everything is going well in almost every other area. But this situation will not bode well for her. As you said Taxman, that act is her favorite to do for me. She cannot do without it. But I tell you, after watching her to this to the OM, I do not want that from her now. While I am turned on by her and can have sex with her, the idea of her doing that for me actually causes me to get somewhat ill. Not exactly the way to feel when you are in the middle of things. So, when I have to push her away because what she is trying to do is freaking me out, and then it spoils the whole mood…well, you can understand that this will not help us. And a huge need for her will not be met in the way that she needs.

JL, thanks for the response. I will hit on your points. The first one is true. For 5 more weeks, she is finishing nursing school. But, I am not the one pushing the sex thing. We could go the next 5 weeks without anything as far as I am concerned (did I just say that? Something is VERY wrong here!). But that wont do for her. I don't have a problem being there for her, or doing things together. But what I don't want to happen is her to try to do the things she really loves, which are things for me, and I freak out…which I KNOW I will. So, instead of that happening and ruining our sex life, I have shied away from it until she brought it up while doing the questionaire. I am not pushing this, but I believe over the next few days, she will want SF…and she will probably try to test the waters, so to speak, to see if what I told her was true. And there is no way I can let her do that. It would be one thing if we never have. But, this is a major thing for her…and I just don't want her to do it for me. Other things that we can do together, or I do for her? Fine.

The second point is so true and I am trying to reinforce my feelings for her. There is a lot of affection between us, and I keep thanking her for being home, for making dinner, or whatever. This part is the part that is going extremely well.

The third point about the ENs moving up and down is probably true. But remember, the Harley's have their four points that we have to use in recovery. The first is protection, making them feel safe. I think we are doing that pretty well right now. The second one is meeting the other's needs in order to fill the love bank back up. While I can meet the SF need in general, it is doing it in a way that she wants that is not possible (as I stated to the others above). The "special" acts are not necessarily special as you outlined. But, while sex and affection were the two central tenets of our relationship before, the SF was predicated on many of these "acts" and meeting each other's needs there. Like I said in a previous post, she is very unselfish and very sexual. And these acts were ones that took us even deeper into our relationship, and into the SF. It was what we both enjoyed the most. They are also acts, for the most part, that she had never enjoyed before me. But, to watch the OM help her to enjoy the same things…no longer makes the feelings associated with doing those particular acts special anymore. To be with her…yes. For those things to be "special" again…not likely. And that will cause problems for us in this area. On the question of whether or not I would prefer her to have fallen in love with OM and enjoyed SF while throwing things away…I will have to get back to you on that one as I think about it. Part of me says yes, it at least shows she wasn't just "slinking around…that this was serious." That is why our reconciliation is even possible. But, the flip side is that the depth of their SF and the fact that she was so serious and open with him in this area, makes what we had and what we have in this area not as "special." It is like taxman talked about when he referred to the problem with like pet words for each other. Something my wife might have told me before, like "you are the best lover I have ever had." Well, I heard her say the same thing to him in the middle of "battle." Do you think those words will mean anything to me now? They will actually be a turn off. I mean, it will seem that she will say this to anyone. And so, these "acts" used to be special things her and I enjoyed, and had been something that only I had given her. Now, when she wants to do these things for me, it doesn't have the same meaning. And thus, I really have no desire to engage in them. Added to the picture in my mind of the OM on the receiving end…well, it goes from not just no interest, but to it making me ill for her to do that.

Oh, also…yes we are in counseling. But I think we are going to go back to the Harley's. My wife loves all the books I gave her from them, and remembers everything Steve told her when we were counseling while she was in the fog. So, yeah…I think we are headed back to good old Steve.

Marathonman, thanks for your prayers and your post. You are also in my prayers, as is your family. As you can see, while I am further down the road than you are, it is still a battle. Hang in there. Mine got worse also before it got better. I will continue to post on your threads in order to help you through this. Your situation is way too similar to mine.

MITT, great to hear from you. You are one that has been here most of the time. And your situation was very similar to my own. What I would like to say here is that I know…take it slow. I am trying. I hope and pray that things in the SF realm will change over time. And I am sure they will. But I am not sure everything will come back. My wife is the one pushing SF right now. And she will be very hurt if she cannot engage in certain activities. It may take months or years before we are able to go that far again. Or maybe some things will never come back. It is all possible. But with her pushing this area (and like I said, I don't mind starting up sex with her again…just doing certain things with her, that she does for me), this will come to a head soon. She will not be happy. And in the one area that I have always felt confident in keeping her happy has been SF. She even admitted yesterday that it was SF that kept our marriage together the last few years that we struggled, and the lack of SF when I was deployed that was the last straw and she left and started the affair. Not because she was "horny." But because it was the only need in the top 5 that I was consistently meeting, thus the only one keeping her love bank above bankruptsy. Once I was in Bosnia, there was nothing more filling her love bank…and well, you know. So, while all of my top 5 current needs (since SF fell to 8th) are being met right now, and all of her top 4 are being met right now, the SF deal is going to be a HUGE LB for her. And really, there is no way around this.

Well, keep up the comments because I REALLY want to work through this. I had the most amazing sex life with my wife for all of our marriage. Both of us would love to have that back. But at least for awhile, that is not possible for me. And that will hurt our recovery. And if everything doesn't come back, especially the big things that she wants to do for me, then that will continue to hurt the marriage.

In His arms.

MM,

I think there is a bit of disconnect here. So let's back up just a second. You need to get this through your head. SHE CAME BACK. She is there because she wants to be MM, remember that.

Now let's look at a few things. SF was the only thing keeping your marriage afloat when you left for Bosnia, right? So IF SF is the only need she had I could see you are concerned, but MM there were other issues and needs and YOU are addressing those. So SF isn't the lynch pin of the whole operation.

You need to work on what you can do, and stop worrying so much. You have told her how you feel. You have explained why you feel that way. Part of the healing is HER making adjustments as well. You cannot just start up where you left off and she is crazy to expect that you can.

You have sustained a lot of damage here MM. She knows that and she needs to remember this. She also has to worry about LB's to you, and doing something that makes you sick is an LB.

Talk about these things, be honest and gentle. Explain to her that this is NOT punishment for her. It is you that is missing something you really enjoyed and don't right now. But, with time, patience and you two working on the marriage it may come back.

I agree some statements are a trigger, but I don't agree that actions need to be. You see, or hopefully you will see, that this is how she expresses love. If this is one way, then you need to let her. This is NOT about the OM. It is about how she expresses her love for someone, that would be you MM. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I have story to tell you. I had a relative that was fairly well off, but sort of the black sheep of the family. Caused a lot of problems in the family etc. I had another relative who was pretty saintly, but life had not been kind financially. Now they were both getting older and health issues were rearing their head. So the well off relative really wanted to do something to help the other, financially and could afford it. But, the one worse off financially really didn't want to take the money. Really didn't want to do, as he was getting by.

We talked about it long and hard over a period of a few days, and I explained as I am doing to you now, that taking the money was the poorer relative's gift to the other relative. Gift??? Yes, the one well off NEEDED to do something good in his life to atone for how is life had been, and taking the money was indeed a gift to this person. In the end the money was accepted, but the poorer relative and myself realized something that I had never really appreciated but looking inward know is true. It is often harder to accept a gift than to give one. In the end the wealthier died of heart failure, but the last year or so of life was one of happiness,because he had finally done something that everyone appreciated.

MM, your gift to your W will be to accept her wanting to do something for you. You don't know how bad she does and will need to do this for you, you really don't.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ April 01, 2003, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

Mortarman,

I don't have much time but I have much to say. For now all I can say is I understand how haunting the images you have are. There is so much to heal...it will be different. The main thing to remember is nothing is beyond God's power. Will you be able to satisfactorily heal to the point where SF for you both is better than ever...I won't lie and say I know it will be. Live in the present...you have boundaries...you also have goals. Work with your wife and know that you cannot take care of everything. She as all FWS will have to work with you through your trigger moments...even if these moments occur during SF.

Just as you cannot say what you will be able to do in 6 months from now...you cannot say what you cannot either. She is home today.

more thoughts later

ayslyne