I'm unsure how to proceed. Both WH and I are in IC. He's dealing with the possible/probable phone sex addiction, so MC is out of the question for now. He's never been honest about any of his activities save the times I've found unmistakable evidence. Each time, he says that's all there is, there is nothing else to find, until I find more. I believe I've found all the evidence I am going to find for now, but naturally I wonder everyday what happened in the past that he will not admit to?

I feel very confident he is not in contact with OW (I think there are 2, he admits to 1) and he is not using the phone for sex either. He's been very apologetic and concerned, but he is the original conflict avoider. He'd like nothing better than to minimize everything and 'move on'.

I feel that we are in limbo. I feel frustrated that we don't seem to be working on this together. I don't doubt that he would like to make our marriage work, until the devil on my shoulder says, 'he's just biding his time till....whatever.' I just need to be patient, right? Any help is appreciated.

<small>[ April 02, 2003, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: julie_hula ]</small>

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Julie why is MC out of the question? My FWH and I did IC and MC at the same time. We also counseled with SH...we read several of the Infidelity books (Torn Asunder, SAA, Infidelity), read a book by Stephen Goleman called Emotional Intelligence.

We were both quite anxious to get past the agony of the A, to understand it, understand our personal issues, our M issues and to start repairing the damage. We didn't feel we had the time to go slowly or one step at a time, we pushed hard but results were well worth it.

Thanks for your reply.

From what I've read so far, MC can't start until the addiction is dealt with. He's still in denial about the addiction, and I don't know how to change that. He simply says he stopped, no problem, but he was spending 4 or 5 hours a night on the phone with various women. He doesn't tell me much about his IC, but they are working on stress reduction techniques.

The key in your situation is the 'we'. We are not reading the books, I am. We are not trying to push hard to get through this, I am. He just wants it all to fade away, is my guess.

I want to forgive, but I don't know all there is TO forgive. Should I try and forgive him for what I know so far and pray for the honesty I crave? It is difficult for me to imagine us successful without the respect of total honesty between us.

Julie,

Did you find out about the phone sex addiction in October? Why does he say he had an A or why he was spending so much time on phone? Was it sex phone lines or all OW?

How long do you suspect he's had this addiction? How long has he been in IC? If he doesn't think he's addicted why did he go to IC...just stress?

As you know from reading this site...it's very common for the WS to just want it to all go away...bury it under the rug. Even my FWH felt that in the beginning but more he learned more he knew that problems shouldn't be buried.

What is your H's attitude now towards reading books, reading this site, IC, etc...is he willing to do anything to save M? Is he remorseful? You said he's apologetic...does he know how much it would mean to you if he would go through above steps?

My number 1 EN is Honesty so I'm with you on that. After my H told me he'd finally come clean on everything, I even had him take a polygraph to put my mind at ease.

My personal thoughts are that a true recovery (where you get past pain and have a improved relationship) is not viable without honesty. I'm sure others may disagree.

What I did for my H when I first found this site was printed out certain posts and asked him to just read those. Once he started reading he was hooked on learning more...he didn't feel so alone.

My H and I both have posted our saga on the recovery board (he posts under tellthetruth). Recovery board has number of posters that are FWS..so not just BS point of view....some FWS that speak up regularly on honesty are 2ofaKind, Sincere and Krissee...might want to hop over there and check out some posts and then print for you H.

Did you find out about the phone sex addiction in October? Why does he say he had an A or why he was spending so much time on phone? Was it sex phone lines or all OW?
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I caught him hiding in the garage late at night talking on his cell phone. He was talking to someone as if they had never met and I interrupted the call when he told the girl he was divorced. He uses the chat rooms on his cell phone. Those rooms are disgusting, just people looking to 'hook up' and exchange phone #'s. I started to understand the unaccounted for time whenever he went out alone, and the numerous nights he 'couldn't make it upstairs' and 'slept' on the sofa. He denied it at first, but eventually confessed to doing it SOMETIMES. He absolutely refused to let me see his cell phone bill (it only comes online.) After several months, I secretly got copies of the bills. The situation was about 10 times as bad as he admitted to.

We started counseling after about a month, but found our insurance wouldn't cover MC, only IC. (ridiculous!) Finances are very tight, so we continued in IC. We agreed that he would finally show me his phone bill (he didn't know I had already seen it.) At the last minute, he backed out and said, why can't I just tell you what is on the bill? He went on and on about his privacy and not wanting to be treated like a child. I gave up after a few weeks of this, and he finally admitted that there was a girl he was talking to a lot over the summer, but it was nothing and he wasn't calling her anymore. According to the phone bill, they did stop talking around 10/02.
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How long do you suspect he's had this addiction? How long has he been in IC? If he doesn't think he's addicted why did he go to IC...just stress?
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He got addicted within several months of getting wireless web on his cell phone. We had problems several years ago with him chatting online at night, and after arguing a while (he never admitted chatting, just 'watching' others chat), he stopped using the computer very much. The appeal of the cell phone is great because he works very long days with many short unscheduled breaks, ideal if you've got the phone with you.

I guess he went to IC to explore the situation, but whenever I suggest it is an addiction, he says, 'but I stopped, I am not addicted.' He swears he isn't doing the phone sex anymore (he denied THAT for a long time, calling it 'innocent chat'.) His phone bills show he is on the web, but he is not making the long distance calls to many different women. He could still be using the chat rooms, there's no way to know, he says he goes online to play games when he has a break.
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As you know from reading this site...it's very common for the WS to just want it to all go away...bury it under the rug. Even my FWH felt that in the beginning but more he learned more he knew that problems shouldn't be buried.

What is your H's attitude now towards reading books, reading this site, IC, etc...is he willing to do anything to save M? Is he remorseful? You said he's apologetic...does he know how much it would mean to you if he would go through above steps?
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I've told him how much I like this site, and I've printed out lots of articles, showed him the books I am reading, but he shows only polite interest. To be fair, his job is brutal and he is gone 14 hours a day, with very little free time. We talk a LOT, and I know that is very difficult for him. He is calling me more often, and inviting me to lunch (he used to invite her), so he is making somewhat of an effort. We both try and make our short evenings together 'our time'. I sit with him while he has his dinner, and he always comes up to the bedroom with me which is wonderful. We also have a date night every week. He is a beautiful, caring man, but flawed in a big way.

His A started when his customer lost her job. She lives nearby and they started to phone each other when they weren't able to see each other at work anymore. He made several trips to visit his grandparents out of state last summer. I don't get as much vacation as he does, so I couldn't accompany him on two of the trips. Apparently, he stopped to visit her on his way in and or out of town. He says it was only twice, the phone bill shows he called her a lot during those times, so I am not sure how much time they spent together. He admitted to one physical encounter, but my instinct says it was probably more. He only admitted that after I threatened to contact her myself and ask. (I'd probably never have the guts to actually do that.)

The phone bill shows he was calling someone else quite a bit. I looked up the number and saw it was a business on his route. I assumed it was before OW #1 lost her job. Now I see it was someone else. He said it was a male friend, he won't tell me who, but he did call this 'man' twice on Valentine's Day.
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My number 1 EN is Honesty so I'm with you on that. After my H told me he'd finally come clean on everything, I even had him take a polygraph to put my mind at ease.

My personal thoughts are that a true recovery (where you get past pain and have a improved relationship) is not viable without honesty. I'm sure others may disagree.

What I did for my H when I first found this site was printed out certain posts and asked him to just read those. Once he started reading he was hooked on learning more...he didn't feel so alone.

My H and I both have posted our saga on the recovery board (he posts under tellthetruth). Recovery board has number of posters that are FWS..so not just BS point of view....some FWS that speak up regularly on honesty are 2ofaKind, Sincere and Krissee...might want to hop over there and check out some posts and then print for you H.
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Thanks very much for your comments. I've been lurking for a long time, and I have learned so much here. It feels good to actually put my story out there. I should have done it long ago!

<small>[ April 01, 2003, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: julie_hula ]</small>

Julie. Do you both see the same IC? Our IC just bills insurance for one of us when we go in together. We each get 20 visits a year on our insurance.

Does you H strongly tell you that he wants to stay together? Does he show remorse? Does he feel what he did was wrong? Does he feel empathy for how this makes you feel?

Do you have children? Was he M before, if so did he have any of these problems in prior M or relationships? Does he tell you why he had the A or why he goes in these chat groups?

You say that his job is brutal (14 hours a day) so he's tired and doesn't have much time for reading...yet you also said he was spending 4-5 hours a night chatting..also said that he gets frequent short breaks at work that he spends playing games, chatting, etc. Sounds like he has plenty of time to read up.

Is the OW M? If so does her H know? Has your H done a NC letter?

When he does talk/admit some of the things he's done, how do you react? How do you question him? What worked well with my H was establishing that I could "take the truth" ...that I wanted to understand what was going on, what he was feeling, what made him do what he'd done...that I wanted to know all this not to get ammunition to leave/divorce him but to help him/us get through this. I wanted him to trust me as his friend. Even though his A put me through the worse hell/pain that I have ever experienced I knew he wasn't the type of man to do this that something had to be seriously wrong and I loved him and wanted to help.

Please consider sitting down with your H and coming up with a mutually agreed upon recovery plan. You can use tools on this site to guide you as to what the plan needs to contain. Once plan in place both of you need to be comitted to abiding by it.

I would also strongly suggest counseling with one of the Harleys...they charge about $185 per session and they take credit cards.

Best Wishes!

Julie. Do you both see the same IC? Our IC just bills insurance for one of us when we go in together. We each get 20 visits a year on our insurance.
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We see different IC. My IC says she can't do marriage counseling and call it IC.
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Does you H strongly tell you that he wants to stay together? Does he show remorse? Does he feel what he did was wrong? Does he feel empathy for how this makes you feel?
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Yes, he tells me repeatedly how important I am to him, how he is sorry for the things he did, and that he knows he was wrong. I've been suffering from depression for a few years and I neglected his need for companionship at night. He says that is part of why it happened. I started AD's almost 2 years ago, and I was improving a lot before d-day. One of the best things we've learned together is NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING about your mate's needs, ASK. He wanted me to stay up with him longer, but he didn't tell me so. I wanted him to come to bed with me, and told him so, but he was not interested at the time. As far as empathy, I don't know if he truly understands this pain. Maybe no one who hasn't gone through it can really understand. He certainly wants us to try and do our best to recover, but I believe he thinks I 'make too much' of what happened and since it 'wasn't really important' to him, I should eventually feel that way too. I told him I will never feel that way.
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Do you have children? Was he M before, if so did he have any of these problems in prior M or relationships? Does he tell you why he had the A or why he goes in these chat groups?
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I have two children from a previous M, D is 15 and S is 13. He has two also, and they live with their mother, S is 13, D is 10. He said he didn't do this with his previous M, but I wouldn't have anyway to know. The reason they divorced was that she stopped wanting to have an intimate, romantic R, and devoted herself to being a mother. She also tried to plan his life to the minute for years in advance. I've never heard her side of the story, this is his version. He works very hard, and he likes to reward himself with 'fun' activities. I've got no problem with that until fun is equivalent to betrayal. He says he went to the chat rooms because it was 'fun', but it was easy to stop since it didn't mean much to him. He hasn't told me very much about the A, he only admitted to the sex last week. I made a list of questions to ask but I overwhelmed him with those, and I am backing off for now. He did say they were just friends, he never intended to have sex, it wasn't very good, etc. I think he wants to minimize the pain for me or maybe hide from his own shame.
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You say that his job is brutal (14 hours a day) so he's tired and doesn't have much time for reading...yet you also said he was spending 4-5 hours a night chatting..also said that he gets frequent short breaks at work that he spends playing games, chatting, etc. Sounds like he has plenty of time to read up.
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True, he has the time. I don't know how to push him to do more. I think he sees the reading as more 'work' and he definitely knows he needs to allow himself some relaxing things to deal with his stress. Reading R books or articles isn't relaxing for him, it is very difficult. As for the 4 or 5 hours per night, that was incredibly unhealthy for him physically. He robbed himself of sleep in order to stay up. He is doing a better job of taking care of himself and sleeping more. I am looking for a way to start this recovery TOGETHER. His schedule is tough, but we can work on it if we both want to. He seems receptive to whatever I ask, but I can see he really wants to limit discussion. It is so hard because he rarely says a negative word about me or anything I ever suggest. How can he be sincere? Sometimes I even suggest ridiculous solutions just to see if he will speak up. All he says is, 'Well, if you really want to...'
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Is the OW M? If so does her H know? Has your H done a NC letter?
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The OW is married. We don't believe her H knows. I've thought a lot about telling him, but I am reluctant to bring this pain onto someone. And sparing him the pain, is that my job? I am torn. My H hasn't done a NC letter because they stopped seeing each other and talking in October. He's promised NC, but I am afraid a letter could reignite something. I don't think they will encounter each other by accident. What do you think about a NC letter?
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When he does talk/admit some of the things he's done, how do you react? How do you question him? What worked well with my H was establishing that I could "take the truth" ...that I wanted to understand what was going on, what he was feeling, what made him do what he'd done...that I wanted to know all this not to get ammunition to leave/divorce him but to help him/us get through this. I wanted him to trust me as his friend. Even though his A put me through the worse hell/pain that I have ever experienced I knew he wasn't the type of man to do this that something had to be seriously wrong and I loved him and wanted to help.
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My original reaction to the phone stuff was nuclear. I was ready to throw him out that night. I have a hot temper and a very biting tongue. I have struggled a lot with my restraint. When he admitted the EA, I was calm but extremely sad, and when he admitted the PA, I already knew, so I didn't have a big reaction. I've learned to tell him I will not leave him if he has done something wrong. I do tell him how I love him and I feel he is a wonderful person who made mistakes. He made me promise repeatedly I wouldn't divorce him before he told me about the PA. I'd say I've learned to hold back the vicious comments over the last six months. I am more conscious of how destructive those comments are. My anger flares up, but not as much as at first, and I definitely stay in control now when we are having R talk.
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Please consider sitting down with your H and coming up with a mutually agreed upon recovery plan. You can use tools on this site to guide you as to what the plan needs to contain. Once plan in place both of you need to be comitted to abiding by it.

I would also strongly suggest counseling with one of the Harleys...they charge about $185 per session and they take credit cards.
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The recovery plan is what I really want to do. We've already discussed boundaries and what is an appropriate friendship and an inappropriate friendship. Our efforts are too scattershot, though, the lack of time is a killer. I have lots of time to research and work on this, and I think I come off as sounding like I am in charge. MC is the answer (isn't it always?) My job is to convince H to do it, and we have to figure out how to afford it together. How can I get him to see we need this?

Julie...what about his IC will his IC see you together on occasion?

As for NC...yes I would still do letter...there are samples in SAA. If you post a question on NC letters and ask for samples you should get several replies. My H did one even though we'd already had a group discussion (me, my H, OW and her H) and decided on NC..even kids aren't allowed to play together.

Since your H says he was just having fun and relieving stress, have you asked him if this is a way that he'd like your kids or his kids to have fun? One of most effective thing with my H when he started coming out of the fog, was lessons his kids would learn from what he'd done. He has worked hard to make sure kids can get a positive message out of this horrible thing. My H said he thinks he's going to submit a post this week on the "in recovery" board regarding the topic of what lessons our kids are learning/have learned from his A and our recovery.

As for your questions and feelings try writing them down and giving them to him and asking him to think about them and then to respond in writing and get him to agree on a timeframe. This is much easier for him to do, keeps him from feeling trapped or put under interrogation.

I personally would tell OW's H..doesn't he have a right to know? What if she does often and brings home a disease? He deserves to know and to have a choice about whether he wants to stay and work on his M or leave. Choice was very important to me. I did tell OW's H as soon as I found out. He thanked me for telling him and then a few weeks later he thanked me...said my telling him saved his M. If you decide to go this route..you and your H should agree on how to tell him.

Now is the time to work on the plan..sounds like he's feeling bad enough to agree to things he might not agree to down the road. I would start by simply telling him that all the reading that you've done indicates that to fully recover requires a recovery plan that is jointly developed and agreed upon. Tell him that it would mean alot to you if we would help you with this.

I would consider printing this post out and giving it to him along with any others you think are worthwhile. Did you get a chance to check out the in recovery board yet?

Again if you counsel with the Harley's they will help coach you on the plans.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for your advice. I will ask about his IC and see if we can go together.

I fear the NC letter and I know he is going to be resistant, Mr. Conflict Avoider and all. Still, it wouldn't hurt to discuss this more with him.

I know that he is remorseful about his actions. He promised not to repeat them. He knows it was all wrong and a stupid way to have fun. Are you suggesting we tell the kids about it or some of it? My son does know H used to chat with people in the cell phone rooms, but I can't remember how he found out. Both my kids know we have been arguing and my daughter asked about it. I told her we are having trouble and married people all have troubles sometimes. I also told her we both want to stay married very much.

I did EXACTLY what you suggested more than once. I wrote some things down that I was thinking about and wondering about. The second time I wrote in a notebook and suggested he take it and write himself when he had time and we could pass it back and forth. He agreed and then did nothing. When I ask, he says he still intends to do so when he has time.

I know telling OWH is going to be a huge problem for my H. He once said if the guy knew, he'd probably come after H and kill him. It was sort of a throwaway comment, I'm not sure how serious he actually meant that to be. I will discuss with H. I agree that I would want to know and he does have the right to know. Maybe we could suggest OW tell him herself in the NC letter and follow up later with OWH to make sure he found out?

I appreciate your help so very much. I have looked at the recovery board. Last night I printed out the thread about privacy and left it for H next to the bed. Not a word yet, I will have to bring it up if I want to discuss. I know he didn't read it yet.

I am actually afraid of his reaction to most of your ideas here but I will print this out for him anyway. If he isn't really willing to get through the difficult parts, it's better that I know that asap.

Julie, you are most welcome...everyone here has been in this hell..least we can do is try to help others through it.

I wasn't suggesting you tell your children..all but our 10 year old know (3 are teenagers and figured out from our fighting, asked and their dad told them). I was trying to get at how he'd feel if his children or anyone else he cares about (including you) were to be amusing themselves in chat rooms and by having an A? Does he want his children to think this is acceptable?

I would try and get him to agree on a deadline to answer your written questions...ask him to come up with timeline and negotiate from there. I would also ask him to agree on timeline to read posts you printed. What could be more important to him then recovering from this? Remember don't demand, ask...tell him how important it is to you, how much you NEED him to do this for the two of you.

As for NC letter why would he resist if contact has really ended? As for comments he made about OW's H....highly doubtful but if you read JazzeyGirl's thread...not impossible. I like your idea about including it in the NC letter and then following up to confirm. Do you know who OW is? Do you know where she lives?

Your H must have a day off...set up an appointment with him to set down and talk about all this stuff and about putting the plan in place.

My H really appreciated (after fact) that I pushed him along in a loving (mostly but sometimes had to set foot down) manner. It made him realize I really cared and wasn't going to give up on him.

Hang in there!

You make it sound so easy! Now I actually see the road to get out of this hell right in front of me. I hope H comes with me.

I'm sure he wouldn't want his children or me to do the things he has done. One point I made to him about the phone 'friends' was how does he know he is not talking to minors? I told him to imagine my daughter and all her high school friends. They all have cell phones. How would he like to know someone would talk to my D or his D that way? He said he hadn't thought of that and agreed talking to girls who lied about their age would be creepy and wrong.

Your suggestions about the timeline and the manner in which I should ask are good. I am working on the correct way to approach him now, and I am so much more aware of how I ask for help and give my POV.

He would resist because he wants to avoid any talk, any questions, any anything about the A. In his mind, I believe there's a little hope that once he confessed there would be no more hard stuff. I certainly didn't promise him that, but only that I would still want to be married to him. He's been to her house. I know her name and #. He will have to give me her address. He's got privacy issues, so the idea of he and I working on a NC letter and sending it together will be hard for him. He was adamant about not telling me her name and other details for a long time. The man knows how to hold out! Also, he is so embarrassed or ashamed he wants to avoid anything about the A.

I hope H will appreciate me 'nudging' him along later on. I know my angry and bitter comments over the years will be a big roadblock to his ability to be open. He is seeing the changes in me. Now I have to BE that person who isn't so angry and bitter, and I have to try and be that person always. My Taker is trying to talk me out of it, but the Giver's on top for now.

Thanks again.