If you are someone who knows my story well, try to put that out of your mind and just consider the question at hand:

MAIN QUESTION: If you(BS) were making sexual advances towards your W (FWS), and this was really the only kind of contact beyond the occasional conversation that you are comfortable with at this point, how would you feel or react if your W told you that she can't do "that", that she needs "so much more than that" (ie. needs to feel that you love all of her, not just enjoy sex with her)?

Secondary question: Any ideas for how to get my H to be willing to do things with me other than secret sexual meetings?

Jen

I have time to say only this much;

That while I am weakening in my resolve towards the restoration of my marriage since exw's announcement that she is movint to ALASKA from NYS, if my ex wanted more than just sexual advances from me I would give her any kind of attention she wanted and be glad for that.

Gotta run, be back later.

Andy

Jen,

I don't know (or don't remember) your story so please understand my answer is based solely on your question and my own experiences.

I would think my W was being selfish again. The affair and then the I need more than just the sex...'it's all about her' would be racing through my mind.

As a mature man I would understand that I had something to do with the environment that led to her A. But, the act of the A was selfishness at the extreme and I would see this as continuing that selfishness and rejection.

Please remember, I don't recall your story...

Gib

Gib, thanks for your post. It's probably a good thing that you don't recall my story, it helps to keep you objective. Your reaction in your post is pretty much what my H's reaction is actually!

Jen

Hey Jen. Being a BS I can't imagine JUST wanting sex from my wife right now. As a matter of fact it is way down on the list of things that I need from her. I have as strong a need for SF as anybody else but since I do love my wife I need to know the feelings are mutual before I would really WANT to have sex with her. When I was younger sex was the most important thing on my list but that was because I didn't really love the women I was with, I was selfish and only cared about what I wanted out of the relationship. As you get older your SUPPOSED to grow up and have respect for other peoples feelings, even if they have hurt you, right? Especially if the one that hurt you is truly sorry and asks your forgiveness. JMHO.

jen you are going to get two types of response.

1. Those who view sex as simply something you give somebody to meet "their" needs will suggest (all other things being equal) that you just do it, try to connect that way...and go from there.

2. Those who view sex as the physical manifestation of a safe, healthy, joyous relationship...in other words a barometer. They will not act sexually if the other stuff is not there. It would be akin to having sex on the first date to make a good impression and meet needs.

Nothing is 100% so #1 can work (so can sex on the first date), but the focus of sex as a need you just give leads to very few successful marriages. A sex based marriage (and many are that way, especially for males) is an emotional wasteland, a quid pro quo of give me sex and I will feed/clothe/shelter you. But occassionally, if the marriage had a sound basis to begin with, and two became estranged, sex can (very carefully) be a legitimate means of connection, as long as it is respectful, and quickly leads to more substantive marital recovery efforts (counselling, reduced LB's, meeting all the en's, etc.). Under those circumstances, "making" oneself sexually available makes sense....just keep in mind these circumstances are few and far between.

#2 will always work. Nobody (worthy as a marital partner) will ever end a troubled relationship because someone won't have sex with them while continuing to be mistreated. We all inherently know you cannot demand sex, that it must be freely given, so when we do demand it (as people do) being denied is not unexpected. Indeed, any decent worthy person would not want sex from someone unless they were willing, which further validates this concept. But when the relationship is healthy, sex takes care of itself....lack of sex is the definitive evidence of intimacy failure, and marriages where one party (or both) do not want sex are generally very shallow marriages, and one would have to wonder what is the point of such a relationship.

In your case, it is much much worse. Your H is abusing you and using sex as a weapon. There is no basis whatsoever to meet that selfish demand. He needs to pursure you in a worthy manner. In fact you did for a time give him sexual access, and it didn't work at all. What will work (if anything does) is setting boundaries (as you have done, and continue to do with plan B), and by focusing on only your behaviour, your growth, and behaving in healthy honest ways, he may be encouraged to make similar changes in himself (that is the behavioural theory anyways, and it does work to some extent).

Your ws behaviour has as a consequence a LIMITED amount of abuse to be accepted from the bs. But you are way past that jen, the pound of flesh has been extracted, the books balanced, the debt paid. You don't owe your H anything in that regard anymore (read the Harley stuff about when hurtful behaviour to a ws becomes abuse). I have no idea why you continue to waffle and have this notion your H is a worthy marital partner, you seem to have a bit of a rescuer complex. You didn't make him the way he is, and you can't fix him. He has a despicable way of treating women, clearly little respect for females....and exhibits a high degree of personality disorder, primarily narcissitic behaviour. The question that you might consider really asking, is why does jen choose dysfunctional men for relationships....and why doesn't she take what she has learned about herself, and healthy relationships and find a more worthy man.

<small>[ April 07, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: LurkingAbout ]</small>

Jen,

I do know your story. But, my first thought is that ANYONE who does NOT get something they want from another person is going to feel rejected, cheated, etc.

Just ask any teenager if that isn't true. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But, as a friend of my daughters once said: "character is what you get when you don't get what you want." I believe her parents used to tell her that and I always loved it.

Now, let's take this toward your situation. Your H probably feels that since you two are married, you OWE him this, and you should provide it IF you care for him and want the marriage. To me that seems fair.

HOWEVER, let's define marriage. Is it living in separate residences with no contact? Is it something you hide from family and friends? Is it only sex and nothing else? A bit ifffy there in my mind, how about yours.

Finally, marriage is not a sex slave market. Although as a guy I do think women really do often short change their H's and then wonder why affairs occur. (Political commentary there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) Nevertheless, if you don't feel like it, and you don't really feel that you are in a marriage do to the factors, then I can see your position.

I also understand where your H is coming from. Hey, if I can get what I want at little cost to me...

So yes withholding sex won't be viewed as an act of love. Yes, your H may withdraw entirely. Yes, you have the right to do it.

Have I gotten you confused?

God Bless,

JL

<small>[ April 07, 2003, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

LA Said:

"1. Those who view sex as simply something you give somebody to meet "their" needs will suggest (all other things being equal) that you just do it, try to connect that way...and go from there."

I do not see this as a black and white issue. At times number one applies, at times number two applies, at times munber 1.765943 applies. IMHO, human emotion does not lend itself to such clear cut definitions. In general, I see Jen's resistance to have sex as a LB to her H. (Please remember I do not know thier history as it seems you do)

The question is does she want to save her M? Again, IMHO, a FWS should try and fullfill as many important EN's for thier BS as possible. SF is a huge one for men. Her decision, her life, her body. But like you said, behaviours inherently have consequences...Jen's behaviour is probably a LB to her H.

I second JL's post.

Gib

<small>[ April 07, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Gibby1 ]</small>

Hi Jen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you(BS) were making sexual advances towards your W (FWS), and this was really the only kind of contact beyond the occasional conversation that you are comfortable with at this point, how would you feel or react if your W told you that she can't do "that", that she needs "so much more than that" (ie. needs to feel that you love all of her, not just enjoy sex with her)?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd feel rejected... "She was willing to have sex with the OM, but not with me..."

I'd feel humiliated... "So what did the OM give you that I'm not giving you...?"

Our MC told us one time that some women give sex to get affection and some men give affection to get sex... I think that for a male BS, that this is one reason that the sexual aspect of an A can be much harder to deal with than the emotional part...

The pain and anger that I first felt blinded me to the fact that I wasn't meeting the EN's of my W. MC helped me realize that I first had to meet my FWW's EN in order for her to feel comfortable in meeting my SF needs.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Hey Jen,

You are sort of caught between a rock and a hard place....absolutely no pun intended. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But your husband will feel many emotions....

1) Whether true or not your husband will feel like you jumped at every opportunity to be with the OM...so he may subconciously be competing with or trying to outdo the OM.

2) Others have noted that by being the BS you have acted selfishly so he might think he is "owed" some unselfishlessness (is that even a word??) this go round.

That being said you can't build any relationship on sex alone. And sex void of intimacy would seem to do little to pull you two back together.

If you are comfortable with "giving" sex to meet his needs then I suggest you set the tempo by making those encounters romantic rather than mechanical.

Pour a hot bubble bath and take things slow. Make sure there is quality time after being together.....sorry he is acting out in anger if he only wants to "do you" seconds before heading out the door for work.

Or insist a candlelit dinner at your favorite spot with the promise of passion afterwards.

Book a hotel room with an ocean view.

ETC, etc.

In other words make settings that allow you have more of your needs met while meeting his needs.

Keep in mind men tend to express emotions more physically than women. So his continued desire if even void of emotion is still a sign he some interest in you.

Just don't let him "use" exclusively for that because he also maybe trying to reduce you to an object rather than a person because he is fearful of emotional contact with the person who has hurt him.

PS I deliberately tried to ignor what limited knowledge I have of your story so that my answers would be more truthful.

Jen,
Tough question, because I do know some of your story and I’ve never had sex as the only contact. So with all that removed to give you a straightforward answer as a male BS I have to strongly agree with RIF90

If my W had come out with an “I can’t do that, I need more” I would have heard I couldn’t do that with you, but with him it was ok, and he gave me more. I would have been angry and resentful.

This is actually a topic I’ve never seen brought to the surface on the sight but I’m here to tell you first hand as a male BS I had to fight just those feelings many many times in this ordeal. In the first 18 months if I was ever turned down my mind went straight to “well you went out of your way to sneak off and give it to him every chance you got but me, I get turned down”. Jen, I know that thought process is immature, unrealistic and unfair but to say I never felt like that would be a lie.

Secondary question: Have you tried “tit for tat” No pun intended… and I’m not saying use sex as a weapon. But you women know how to playfully suggest that if a man does something, say accompany you to a nice dinner or what ever, it will be worth his while.

Just my 2 Cents and since it was free you got what you paid for..

Oz

Interesting thread.

I would feel like I have been trying, and trying damned hard. Everything 'Rebuilding' said does enter the mind, and more...makes one wonder if an A has started up again, makes one question why they ever tried to save the marriage in the first place, question the motives from the WS as to why she stayed in the marriage, question ones manhood(ie; not up to OM standards in the sex dept).


jd

<small>[ April 08, 2003, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]</small>

Hi Jen;
While I can relate, since as a man I often would like to have sex with my W regardless of what else is going on, (or not going on), I'd say that if this is all he wants, it's not very promising.

At least in my case, there are a WHOLE lot of other things that I want more than sex from my W if there's even going to be a chance to recover. Sex may be one way to express love, etc. but it's NOT the most important thing I'd be looking for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Any ideas for how to get my H to be willing to do things with me other than secret sexual meetings?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,

I am not one of the "men" that you initially addressed for answering the first question. So, I would like to point out my position on the second part.

The word that I have "bolded" is the part I would have trouble dealing with. Keeping me a secret would infuse shame in me.

I am good enough to have sex with ...but not good enough to let anyone know that we have a relationship?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Secret Sexual Relationship...why does that sound dirty to me? Illicit? Improper? Those are all words that I draw to mind. Isn't it the place that a "mistress" has? It is secret, it is illicit, it is improper, and it is shameful ( to ME).

I would have a really hard time fulfilling any EN (but especially SF) if he was so determined to keep me a "secret". There has to be some type of payout for him to keep you a "secret".

I would question you with... "what do you get by him keeping you a secret?"

Again, this is JMHO. (God knows, my opinion at times can cause such a ruckus on the forum! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

So, feel free to totally ignore it and no harm....no foul. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In the first 18 months if I was ever turned down my mind went straight to “well you went out of your way to sneak off and give it to him every chance you got but me, I get turned down”. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY!!!!

Another thought that I had regarding what our MC told us... If some women GIVE sex to GET affection, then why won't my WS GIVE me sex to GET affection from me, her H????

This is all compounded even more if the WS isn't forthcoming with answering the BS's questions regarding the A... for me, when my FWW was guarded with her answers, I ALWAYS assumed the worst.... they had sex 4 times a day and it was always great... they never missed an opportunity to have sex... the OM MUST have been a better lover than me... Add those thoughts to a WS that requires a BS do certain things for sex(change a behavior, help more around the house, meet a specific EN, mop the kitchen floor, or whatever), then all it ends up doing is further degrading and humiliating the BS... in a sense, it's using sex as a weapon against the BS. (I've had my fun with my OM, now if you want sex, then you'd better do _____.)

Again, I agree with the others that this isn't a healthy view for a good M relationship, but after the pain of betrayal, these thoughts are hard to get out of your head.

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Starman wrote: &#8220;As you get older your SUPPOSED to grow up and have respect for other peoples feelings, even if they have hurt you, right? Especially if the one that hurt you is truly sorry and asks your forgiveness.&#8221;

Oh if only my H could see things the way you do&#8230;&#8230;

LA wrote: &#8220;I have no idea why you continue to waffle and have this notion your H is a worthy marital partner, you seem to have a bit of a rescuer complex. You didn't make him the way he is, and you can't fix him. He has a despicable way of treating women, clearly little respect for females....and exhibits a high degree of personality disorder, primarily narcissitic behaviour. The question that you might consider really asking, is why does jen choose dysfunctional men for relationships....and why doesn't she take what she has learned about herself, and healthy relationships and find a more worthy man.&#8221;

Well, I continue to waffle because we were once VERY happy together. We were each other&#8217;s best friend. We had a lot of fun together. We used to treat each other very well. So foolishly I wish we could have that again. I also have this feeling of having made a commitment to both my H and God, &#8216;til death do us part, so I feel a responsibility to really try at this. I think you have a point about being a bit of a rescuer. I feel somewhat (although minimally) responsible for his becoming less than the person he once was. Yes, he&#8217;s made a lot of poor choices for himself, but if I hadn&#8217;t hurt him the way I had, maybe he never would&#8217;ve ended up like this. Why don&#8217;t I go find a more worthy man? Well, I&#8217;m still stuck being married to this one until June at least (when the 1 year waiting period is finally up).

I know that I get really strong some days and just want to end it and go on without him. Then he shows glimpses of the man I once loved, and I long for the good old days, or I feel guilty for putting us into this mess.

JL: As you say, my H may feel that I owe him sex. He&#8217;s never said so, but may think it. The thing is, if he is going to continue to repeat to me that he doesn&#8217;t want to be married to me, why should I have sex with him? If he withdraws entirely, then I guess I know where I stand with him too, and so be it.

Gibby1: I find it interesting that you suggest my refusal to have sex at my H&#8217;s whim is like an LB to him. You&#8217;re probably right. But it doesn&#8217;t mean that I should be his sex slave whenever he feels like phoning me and inviting me over, etc. He&#8217;s not willing to make time to spend time with me. I&#8217;m always an afterthought after he&#8217;s done going out and spending time drinking with his brothers or hanging out with his 2 female buddies.

Rebuilding Faith in 90 said: &#8220;I'd feel rejected... "She was willing to have sex with the OM, but not with me..."

I'd feel humiliated... "So what did the OM give you that I'm not giving you...?"&#8221;

Actually, I was having plenty of sex with my H prior to and after the 2 times I had sex with OM. Maybe that means my H and I are severely messed up folks, who knows. (He knew I&#8217;d cheated on him but kept sleeping with me.)

What did OM give me that my H didn&#8217;t? I&#8217;ve had this convo with my H. In short, the OM listened to me, talked to me and made me feel like he appreciated my company (he didn&#8217;t make me feel like useless, lazy nuisance like my H did).

Still, my H won&#8217;t see that his refusal to really talk with me and listen to me is still not meeting my needs. So I guess that&#8217;s why I am not interested in sex.

WAIT...Actually, I am interested in sex. I like sex! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I do enjoy it physically whenver we have it, but I feel like I am doing something wrong, like I am letting myself down somehow, and allowing myself to be treated without respect.

Rebuilding Faith in 90 also said: &#8220;MC helped me realize that I first had to meet my FWW's EN in order for her to feel comfortable in meeting my SF needs.&#8221;

That&#8217;s why I wish I could get him to MC. I wish I could make him see that!!!!!! But he won&#8217;t go.

Stunned dad: in response to #1, my H doesn&#8217;t need to outdo the OM, he&#8217;s always been better. OM was useless in bed to be honest. But I guess my H may feel a need to outdo him, even if I have told my H many times how crappy the sex with OM was.

Stunned dad said: &#8220;And sex void of intimacy would seem to do little to pull you two back together.&#8221;

EXACTLY!!

I am still reluctant to go over for nice PRIVATE romantic evenings that end in sex. I still feel used. If he were willing to be seen with me in public, go out for a nice meal, etc. and then go back to the house and spend the night together, that would be very different, and maybe even appealing.

Stunned dad also said: &#8220;Just don't let him "use" exclusively for that because he also maybe trying to reduce you to an object rather than a person because he is fearful of emotional contact with the person who has hurt him.&#8221;

My fear exactly!!!

Oswald: I see the possible usefulness of &#8220;tit for tat&#8221;, but my H has accused me of using sex as a weapon in the past, even when we were supposedly still happily married. He probably sees my current choice of behaviour as using sex as a weapon again.

Jdmac: He has been asking me if I have had a man over at my place, etc. when I refuse his advances. I NEVER HAVE. A ended with d-day. I didn&#8217;t &#8220;drop everything&#8221; and run off to have sex with OM on numerous occasions. It happened twice, under very bizarre, drunken circumstances, when my H was sharing a bed with (but &#8220;just sleeping next to&#8221;) a female friend of his. (Very dysfunctional I know). Apparently he doesn&#8217;t understand that I don&#8217;t want to have sex with someone who
a) doesn&#8217;t listen to me very respectfully (he still regularly hangs up on me mid-convo on the phone)
b) keeps telling me he can&#8217;t forgive me
c) keeps reminding me that he shouldn&#8217;t forgive me b/c &#8220;it happened 3 times&#8221;
d) tells me that he isn&#8217;t my H anymore b/c we are separated
e) isn&#8217;t willing to be seen with me in public (ie. Do things other than have sex at my apt. or his house)
f) still is friends with that woman (female friend of his) that was a HUGE part of our problems in the first place, and refuses to give up her friendship. (She deserves to be seen in public with him ,but I don't?)

Also, I am withholding sex when no other aspects of our marriage even seem to exist anymore, not when other aspects are going well.

SC: It&#8217;s good to hear from you, and one other man earlier on that you&#8217;d rather have things other than sex too. It encourages me to know that that kind of man exists. Your honesty about being willing to have sex if and whenever you can get it is appreciated too.

Committed: &#8220;"what do you get by him keeping you a secret?" I do wonder what he has to gain by keeping me and the fact that we are still in contact and having sex now and again a secret. I&#8217;lll have to think about that one. GOOD QUESTION!

Okay, so now that I&#8217;ve typed the world&#8217;s longest post, it would seem that a few conclusions are in order:

1) It may be an LB to my H that I refuse his sexual advances.
2) He may be thinking, &#8220;Why tell me no, when you did it with OM?&#8221;
3) My H may think he's owed some subservient behaviour by me, but I can't take it forever without any real improvements in how he treats me.
4) I tried using sex to get affection, from OM and my H, and it hasn't worked. Why should I continue using sex as a weapon then?
5) I still need more than just sex to feel loved. I don't want to have sex with someone unless I feel like they love me. I know I shouldn't have done that with OM b/c he didn't really love me. I was stupid and made a huge mistake. I should have communicated with my H about the fact that he wasn't meeting my needs, and that I resented his close friendships with 2 females, instead of just running off and having sex with his BF.
6) The secrecy aspect does make me feel shameful. I need to figure out why he needs this secrecy.

There, that is certainly enough for now!

Sorry for the length. I felt a real need to respond directly to so much that was said.

Jen

<small>[ April 07, 2003, 05:07 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Oh, one other reason for LA about why I keep waffling . How am I supposed to persuade some new man to trust me and stay in a relationship with me when I have to confess to the fact that my having had 3 affairs led to the demise of my first marriage?

Maybe my best shot is at saving this marriage....although I'd like to believe I could win some new man's heart who will treat me better.

Jen

Oh, one other reason for LA about why I keep waffling . How am I supposed to persuade some new man to trust me and stay in a relationship with me when I have to confess to the fact that my having had 3 affairs led to the demise of my first marriage?

Jen do really need to be concerned about that right now? I mean don't you want to rebuild yourself before worrying about another person?

Without being judgemental but you sound like you measure your worth on how much you mean to someone else rather than what you mean to yourself.

You must first make yourself happy before you can make someone else happy.

As to the trust of a future partner that is tricky.

My first comment would be everyone has a past. And you and only you can decide how much of that past you need to share.

Yes as should you find yourself in a future deeper relationship with someone else you may want to discuss your past. But by then you should have built some strong feelings. Plus the very act of disclosing something negative about ourselves to someone else is a sign not only of faith in that person but a major trust builder.

Your past needs to be disclosed if it has some barring on your current or future relationship with another person.

Heaven knows how much I wished my WS had shared her previous past before our marriage with me. Yes it would have meant having to tell me she was molested as a pre-teen, aquaintance raped as an early teen which led to an abortion and finally abused and rapes in her late teens by her high school sweetheart whom she left to marry me. But that would have been much easier to deal with than her repressing those memories and acting out with an affair some 16 plus years later.

Jen,
I don't come here as often now, and I'm not a BS. I'm sure you remember my story, as we're both female former WS's. The differences are many, of course. You're still married, I've been divorced since the end of last summer. My A lasted quite long, and yours sounds to be very brief. (forgive me if I've messed up your details, Jen)

You said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do enjoy it physically whenever we have it, but I feel like I am doing something wrong, like I am letting myself down somehow, and allowing myself to be treated without respect.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That right there is enough, to me, for you to have your answer.

When I first read your initial posting here on this thread, I thought--"I'd pass out from disbelief if exH made advances towards me. I'd be pleased, and of course I'd be with him intimately."

Then I read more, and realized how you were treated 'the rest of the time'. Please, Jen, you are worth more than just a 'good time' to a man.

As someone else mentioned, is a husband someone you don't live with, and someone who ignores you the rest of the time?

JL also mentioned a wonderful statement about character. Perhaps your husband is telling you a lot about who is, and what his character is truly like- through all of this. Is that all that you deserve? The secretive part REALLY bothers me.

If he sees it as a LB, so be it. You weren't put on this earth to please him, at the expense of losing your own self-respect. You deserve someone to love you as a whole person, and treat you kindly.

Jen, I admire how hard you've tried to save your marriage. I didn't try too hard until D was almost final. It's final now. Believe me, better to be alone than with someone who treats you disrespectfully.

When I read about the type of man your husband is, I truly wonder why you're fighting so hard to save it. I know that sounds harsh, but I'm being very honest with you. (the female friends, hanging up on you, his cruel words, etc.)

Just my 2 cents,
H_P

Jen:

I can relate. After D-day, I seemed to want SF all the time. We actually had it every day for a week after that! The frequency dropped somewhat after that, but I still struggled with my "drive" for most of the past year. About 3 months ago, my W started questioning whether I wanted her for love or lust (though she didn't put it that way), and started saying, more and more often, that she wasn't "in the least interested." Well, we went from about twice a week before D-day to once every other week in the past 3 months. Remember, too, that it's been almost 15 months since D-day for me, and my W never left. Last time we had SF was about a week ago, when we were alone in our vacation home out of state. It was new moon, very dark, and I asked my W what she was interested in, and she said "you're not supposed to ask questions." Well, it was pretty hard to read her body language, because I could barely see her, but we went ahead and it was pretty nice. But now I find I'm not so much interested in SF as I am in understanding and loving her, and since she has had such a hard time with my "drive", I need to back off and let her put all of our interactions into perspective. It hasn't been enough for me to tell her that I love her, or to "show" her while having SF. She needs to determine, in her own way, what ALL of our interactions mean to her. So, I have backed off. And you know? I don't "need" SF as much as I once believed I did. I don't feel like it's the end of the world if I don't get it, and "getting it" under the wrong pretenses is NO fun at all.

Your H needs to do something like this, too. Whether he can or not remains to be seen.

What happened to your plan B plan?

-Qfwfq