Some background for the "newbies" (really wish I wasn't a veteran at this!): H started affair w/OW in summer 1998. I discovered around Jan. 99. H has been being treated for depression since Jan. H is going to lose his job (partly due to affair) - contract expires in about 6 months in a field where new position recruitment can take 6 mos or more. He has almost landed new position and may move in Jan/Feb to another state. We are separated. H moved out 3 mos ago and "wasn't coming back" (his words). Since then he has changed his tune, doesn't want divorce, hopes to be able to rebuild with me. I have told him I need to know that his relationship w/OW is over before we can talk about reconciling - but I still am in Plan A (the needs meeting kind, not just the no lovebusting kind). I do not know his exact relationship with OW at this point - only that some kind of contact is ongoing.<P>Back from counselor today. Talked about what kind of message I am sending H. She said that it is fine if we "get along" in Plan A, but that when I start to look at potential homes/neighborhoods in new city real estate listings at H's request and talking with him about moving there, I am sending the message that what he is doing now is OK. That is, she said he might feel I am backtracking on my statement that I need to know OW is over before talking of reconciling - since I am willing to envision a life with him (i.e. fantasize) before he has done the hard work of ending relationship with OW. Do you all agree? <P>H wants to stop in this new city and show it to me when we go out of town for Thanksgiving. Counselor asked me to examine this and think about whether doing this would be inconsistent with my previous statement of my needs (actions speak louder than words and all). Keep in mind H has never come to me and said "Starpony, OW is out of my life and I am committed to rebuilding our marriage" - only that he "hopes we can rebuild our life together". Does anyone besides me see the difference? What do you all suggest?<P>Thanks,<BR>Starpony<BR>

Starpony,<BR> My feeling is "keep up the good work" You counselor may be a little "Over" protective here.<BR> If your H is talking about moving to a new city with you, he's showing commitment to TRYING to work things out. His "HOPING" seems to be the natural reflex of the betrayer. Not sure if it can REALLY work and you can REALLY forgive him.<BR> Get him into a NEW house in a NEW city without OW and (if not already) DRAG H to a Christian marriage counselor and THEN DEAL WITH GETTING RID OF OW. He will be MUCH more receptive then. And IF (I guess we live with if's all the time don't we? )he moves to NC then feel confidant he will try. Can't have BOTH unsure can we? GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

Starpony - I'm right in there with Frank. I think there may be some truth in what the counselor is saying, but we could just be splitting hairs here. If you've been trying to meet needs, then supporting this job change and move is a good idea I think?<P>I think being positive about a future, particularly in a new place, is a GREAT idea. <P>Keep up the good work.<P>Lori

*Pony,<P>I'm not a pro, so you can take this with a grain of salt. Here's what I would do. I would let him show you around town, and maybe even look at a few properties. But, do this exercise for YOU. Look at it like you will have a chance to see if YOU would like to live in this place either with him or without him. Just assume that things could work out between the two of you, then this is a chance for you to experience this new place, & provide some input. At least he is giving you a chance for feedback, and seems to care what you think about this place. You know Policy of Joint Agreement. It could be a sign of positive changes!!

Frank -<BR>Boy, you are fearless aren't you? I guess I am having a hard time thinking about moving, leaving my job, friends, home, kids' school, etc. all for an H who can't even tell me whether his relationship with OW is over!! I have been hanging on for almost a year now already in Plan A land. Even my H tells me I am doing everything right (no fighting, no pressure, lots of understanding) - I am "remarkable" in his words - just not "remarkable" enough for him to leave OW yet I guess . I guess commitment to "trying" just isn't enough for me anymore. I understand about the hoping terminology being the natural reflex of the betrayer, but don't you think I at this point need to hold out for knowing that the OW is out of it?! I guess you are scaring me a little, Frank.<P>Am I wrong here? Any betrayers have input on this?<P>Starpony<BR>

Lost va,<P>Thanks. I know I have lots to be positive about. Especially compared with some situations here amongst my friends on this board. While I was posting to Frank, H called. He is going to get a new offer in this city (a really good offer I should add!) and was all excited about schools and neighborhoods he drove through, etc.<P>Guess it is possible he wants to put this all behind him as much as I do... Still wish he could tell me he's through with OW though. I need this at some point...<P>Sidney, Are you still in LA? I had a brief trip there after my H told me he wanted a divorce and like you really took advantage of the time to step back and look at me and what I want. Hope you are enjoying the weather and the beach (and avoiding the traffic!). <P>Thanks for the encouragement. I know that I will in the end let him show us around town. He is so excited about this opportunity I can't help but get a bit caught up in it. And yes, these are positive changes, even if they are not yet all the way there....<P>PS: H also took along copy of my resume and left it with a couple people. Am I just being pessimistic??

Starpony,<P>I am a male and a problem solver type, so keep this in mind. Go to the heart of the matter with H in a non-LB way. My advice would be to sit H down and tell him exactly what you have posted here, "I guess I am having a hard time thinking about moving, leaving my job, friends, home, kids' school, etc. all for an H who can't even tell me whether his relationship with OW is over!!" <P>Others may disagree, but it seems to me you are not saying you won't do it, you are not demanding from him that he change anything, but you ARE telling him that he really needs to do something to take care of your current fears, not even the ones for the future.<P>Is he living with you and children again? IF he is not I would definitely get a few things sorted out. Even if he is, the issue of the OW really is something that must be considered. It will not kill the children to move to a different place, but why put them through this if nothing is at least discussed and understood between you two.<P>I guess I am the direct approach type of person. It does sound like you have made considerable headway, but be direct, firm, and really unemotional about this and I think you can get the information you need to proceed.<P>God Bless You and Your Family

Starpony:<P>All I can say is ugh. This is a hard question.<P>I think the answer depends on what YOU want. I'll start again by laying my groundwork assumptions on what I believe. First, since he didn't end the affair at discovery, it won't be ended until she chooses to or he no longer wants her. The addiction is too strong and there's no compelling reason right now for him to make the tough choice. So he won't make it.<P>My second belief - it is extremely difficult to continue the needs-meeting version of Plan A knowing an affair is underway and the betrayer is uncommitted. It is too hard on us, in my opinion. I'm close to burning my Harley Plan A life-time membership card myself. The question for you - are YOU prepared to live under the same roof with him again when he is uncommitted to your marriage and has an active affair? (I will not do this).<P>So, in your circumstances but based on my beliefs, I would be clear as day to him in my message back - "I'm flattered that you consider me important enough in your life to look at homes with you. However, until it's clear that we will be together, which means you are committed to our relationship and have ended your relationship with the OW, I will not be residing with you. If you are unable to make that commitment now, I suggest you rent space in newlocation until such time as you're ready to commit". This response is not a slam the door in the face, it's not a lovebuster (it is loving), but it's also not doormat. At this stage, this is what I would do.<P>It's great that he says what he does and seems to be headed down the right path. But I don't think it's enough for you to say, through your actions "this is good enough". It wouldn't be for me.<P>Best of luck.

Hey *Pony,<P>Good for you! Yeah, I'm still in LaLa land enjoying the fabulous weather (but not the smog). Went rollerblading on Tuesday for the first time. What a blast! Only wiped out once, so now I'm initiated!! Tonight is my introduction to the wonderful world of Sushi. I might be going home with bruises & tapeworms, but you only go around once!

Just Learning -<BR>Thank you. I'm a problem-solver myself (even though female ) and I appreciate your advice. (The kind I would give if I weren't so close to things!)<P>Distressed -<BR>You hit the nail on the head again! No, I will not live with him again while he is in the affair - been there, done that, got the T-shirt and the wrinkles and gray hair! <P>Thank you all so much. You have given me much to think about. As usual - you are all great.<P>PS to Sidney - Use sunscreen!

SP,<BR> I'm so sorry if I scared you. <P> I've been thinking about what you're H said when he called. I think I figured out WHY he won't "make the break" with OW right now. <BR> I think he's smart enough to know that it will be a hard (addiction)to break. ESPECIALLY if he's STILL THIS CLOSE!!!!<P> He may want to make an "ESCAPE" break-off and not tell her where he's going. That way he "protects" YOU from the possibility of this getting ugly i.e... OW calling, writing and basically PULLING HIM BACK!!<P> If he tells her and runs, you can BOTH be "SAFE" from this "THING" Make sense?<BR> I wouldn't "nail him down" right now. I see it as a LB. <BR> He's saying and doing what we the betrayed ALL PRAY our SPs will!!!!<BR> TRUST GOD!!! TRUST GOD!!! TRUST GOD!!!<BR> PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

Satrpony,<P>I like Just Learning's approach. Try to have the heart-to-heart before you decide. I think it would be the emotional last straw for you and your kids to uproot, move and then be disappointed and crushed all over again.<P>Another thing to consider is this (be brave, girl!). If he is unwilling to commit at this time, how awful will it be for him to move WITHOUT you guys at this time? It is not like you can't ever move there if you don't go right away. If he can't give you the reassurances you need now, maybe some time and distance will help him to sort out WHO he really misses (his W and kids!). If he is stupid and doesn't miss you, then you will at least not have had to endure the move, loss of job and friends and network, support, kids schoolchange, etc.<P>Roll Me Away

Frank -<BR>Don't worry - I've been scared far worse these last few months! I don't know. You may be on to something-H does know (if he has been paying attention to recent history) that breaking it off w/OW will be ugly. The last two of the last three times he has tried she has threatened or attempted suicide and spent days to weeks in inpatient psych care. I do not say this lightly or with malice. she is a messed up chick who really sees H as a savior. It will be very easy for OW to find out where he is going - but I can see where he would want to leave town...<P>RMA-<BR>We have already had some discussions about his moving there ahead and us coming at the end of the school year. I guess even if this is the case, I would still like to have the heart to heart before he leaves town. <P>Thanks to you both,<BR>Starpony

Starpony,<BR> I don't know why but I had a feeling she was, let's say "pushy" <BR> Seriously though. I think I'm right about this. H LOVES you. H WANTS you. H NEEDS you. AND H wants to get the H*ll out of Dodge before "high noon"<P> He wants out but lets face it. She makes it REALLY tough!! He's smart. Maybe he has plans to cover his tracks so OW can't find him?? <BR> PRAYERS FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

Hey Starpony could your OW and mine be the same person NAAA! I still think the Ow threatened sucide. She had done it one time before. I think that is why he stayed with her. I think he maybe trying to break it off but cna't becuse of that mental problems. How do they get hooked with these people. Yes you do need to have that heart to heart, but I'm not sure he will tell you anything. I think waiting till the end of school would be great. Not only would it be better on the kids with all this other stuff going on but it would give you a chance to evaluate what is going on with him at the time and would give him a chance to get away from her. Good luck and prayers.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

Starpony,<BR>I agree with those that say you need to have it all straightened out where h relationship with ow is. You said that ow can find out where your h is going quite easily. What would keep her from following him? The only thing that would would be for the affair to be completely over. Your h probably is trying to make a clean break. I have no doubt that he feels very caught by ow and her manipulative behavior.<P>In my case, the best thing that can happen is for one of the people involved to move away from the other. It has been 4 1/2 mo. since the ow moved. That was the last contact h had with her as he confessed after she moved. Right now, things are going along quite well. If there was any possibility of contact, I would not be handling things like I am. As you know, withdrawal will be very painful. It took close to 3 mo. to get obviously through withdrawal. Even though he is looking like he is choosing you, there will be tough times in your new home until withdrawal is concored. <P>I think you do need to be very firm here in setting your boundaries. It looks like the move would be the answers to all of your problems. That would only be so if there was no further contact with ow! Trust me, your h, like mine, will want to make that contact. Will he be able to stand firm? Good luck on your decision as to what to do!

Hi again -<BR>SDS, I don't know how they find these people. But in some way she has made my H feel needed. I still remember a line from fighter once "we men generally prefer our women without head problems". I am still waiting for H to figure this out . I could see waiting til end of school to move, but not if he leaves without having committed to end the affair. I would go to plan B then because I am starting already to feel the love bank drain with this prolonged decision process ...<P>Derby - Very perceptive. Nothing would prevent her from moving. Her career was damaged as well - he actually helped her get a job somewhere else in town. In fact, I know H is having a very hard time imagining doing the same work again without her by his side (yuck huh!) since he feels they were such a good team professionally (i feel sick). His confidence is so damaged by this he seems to feel he needs some kind of support at work to start again (at least he did until recently). My greatest fear is that he might ASK her to move there. I of course am not in this same line of work so can't fill this need like she did (unless i go back for a PhD and even then...) I hope finally landing a job will be enough to give him the confidence he needs to shake free of her.<P>For me the best case would be H commits to ending it with OW, moves away, she stays put, H gets through withdrawal and we join him after the worst of it is past and can launch right in to rebuilding. Sounds like a twisted fairytale huh?<P>Thanks for all your thoughts.<BR>Starpony

Bringing this back up to update and get some more feedback. H will almost definitely accept this position in newcity. His first day home he showed me all the homes he had looked at-although he was quite cold and distant, he then refused my invitation to stay the night and ended the conversation saying he still didn't know what he wanted and that I should not get my expectations up! I felt really deflated because of course I had been getting my expectations up!!<P>So, I decided to set some boundaries. Told him that while I am very happy he cares enough about me for ask my input - I do not wish to stop in newcity when we go out of town next week, nor do I wish to keep looking at schools and real estate until we are committed to moving there together and we have made a plan for reconciliation, including end of relationship with OW. Told him otherwise my expectations get too high and then I resent that they aren't met - and that I feel this will hurt our eventual chances of being together if we keep hurting each other now. <P>Wellll....he basically shut down. Told me he hates having conversations like this, etc. and left pretty depressed. Then the next morning called to see if I had changed my mind about stopping in newcity!!! He won't let me set boundaries and doesn't believe me when I do! I told him I had not changed my mind. He then accused ME of avoiding conflict and not talking about the real issues in our relationship! - I really don't get this at all. I calmly said that when I had approached him, he always rebuffed me with how he needed to get a job first, and then his decisions would be clearer... (I do know now he is still seeing OW.)<P>He goes out of town again this week and will be gone until we leave on our trip. We finally agreed that we would set aside time when we are away to really discuss whether we are at the point where we can recommit to the marriage or if not what it would take to get there. He told me he is tired of us just talking about talking and not addressing our real issues (acts as if this whole thing was his idea!).<P>Don't know if this is positive or not. He does seem more confident now that the job thing isn't an issue - but it may be he just has the confidence to finally leave for good.<BR>Any thoughts?<P>Starpony

Starpony, I'll take a stab at it. <BR>First, if he says that you're not addressing the real issues of the marriage, use that as a starting point. Go into counselling and let him define the real issues of the marriage. An estute counsellor will bring him around to what the real, real issues of the marriage are. <BR>Having his confidence back to full may also push him away in that he may not want to deal with the problems of the past. Especially the ones that he caused. <BR>I don't have much more than this. I hope it helps.

Starpony:<P>So it's exactly as we feared. He wants you to take him back and support him, yet he wants to keep her. He wants to advance the relationship with you, without ending his affair. He tries to deflect his own responsibility by projecting blame onto you. NO DEAL, NO THANKS.<P>You handled this MAGNIFICENTLY. I'm proud of you. I only hope I could do as well.