My wife wants out of our marriage. In the past I have done horrible things. I have cheated on her. But she has cheated on me too, many times over. Neither of us are in a position to point a finger. Now, I want to bury the past. But, she has someone she is in love with. She tells me that she has called it off with him, but I know better. When days go by that she does not talk to him, our relationship is lovely. We take our kids (8 and 4) to the park. We hold each other. We kiss each other goodbye. Days she talk to him, she treats me with contempt. It is so clear.
Now, today, she is very distant. I believe they had sex on Thursday and now she is very guilty because I have been so nice to her. The guilt is killing her and I think she just wants out.

What to do? How do I get through to her? She is so closed off to me. I look at her and see the pain in her eyes, but she won't talk to me. She uses the past as the reason why she can't open up to me, but there is so much more there. It's not the past. Whatever it is its causing her to think unrationally. For to leave me and the children who are so dear to her, to break up this home.
How do I approach her? Or, do I dare say, do I just let her go? The pain is literally killing me. I have lost nearly 20lbs and have not been able to sleep. Please, help.

If she wants out and you don't, do not do anything active to make it easier for her (e.g. file). Otherwise, let her enjoy the consequences of her actions. You are just showing her the kind of husband you can be. Her feeling guilt is not really your fault.

From what you said, it sounds like she's feeling that her justifications for the A are breaking down. Since she doesn't want to give up A, her remaining choice is to get away.

How much does your wife want the marriage and all that entails? Of course, she's said she wants out, but that might be "I hate everything about you/kids" or it could be "I love you and the kids, but it seems to painful to try" or anywhere else on the scale.

My general suggestion is (assuming you really have been nice to your W is healthy ways) to prepare have a talk with your wife where you share what you "know" about current A, state your boundaries (either Plan B or Tough Love approach) and let her decide and live with the consequences. Devil's in the details, of course, but just wanted to state that their are definite options out there that can be worked out maximize your chances for a healthy recovery.

In the meantime, consider you desire "to bury the past". Burying the past may entail not addressing the issues that resulted in the multiple As. Another thing you might do is read up about Plan A on this web site (among the other good info) and see how you compare in your efforts). Feel free to share your conclusions on that.

Here's a starter link: Plan A Quickstart from WAT

FWIW, you post indicated some hopeful signs both on your part and your W's.

She feels awful and you feel awful. Remember the ten commandments? That was written to protect us from this stuff. But if you would both say to each other that you both feel bad about what is going on in your life right now and make an appointment to get a counselor, and go for the help, your marriage may be saved and eventually be made better. If you are losing weight you may want to go to your doctor for something to help you. Counselors are very busy in our society! You are sure not alone. Prayers are with you!

We go to counseling...separately. I have buried the past and have been going overboard with kindness. I cook ALL meals and wash all the dishes. I wash all the clothes and fold them too. I declared Sunday mornings "Mommy's Time" and I, along with the kids, pamper her. For the past 3 Sundays I have messaged her shoulders and neck and head and feet (bunions and all) until she falls back asleep. I have always taken full care of the children (I give the smallest a bath and read and pray with them every night). She KNOWS I am a good father AND husband. But there is something there. How long can this relationship with this other man last? She met him in January and they had sex in February. It is going on the third month. How much longer can this thing last? And get this, she only talks to him during the day! She does not talk to him once she is home 630pm and she does not talk to him during the weekends! How can a relationhsip like this even work as long as it has?!?! I researched this guy and found his home number. I have called him mom and spoken to her and she told me that she will talk to him and tell him not to talk to my wife for at least 3 weeks. I believe that he has tried to stop talking to her, but she RUNS AFTER HIM! She is very to herself and has no one else to talk to. He is definitely filling her conversation need. But I cannot get her to allow me to fill that need. She just wants out. I believe she wants out so badly because she feels this OM slipping away from her.

Maybe I should just step back and let them be.

Do you feel like you are doing all the giving or what! Ask her if she will rub your back too. You are feeding into a problem when you do not get respect back. I think that article re. the giver and the taker is something you and her ought to read! Also the one about EN, emotional needs. She needs to come to terms with what she is really needing ( and lacking),just like you do. Do you work outside of the home?

Yes, we both work outside of the home. I work 40+ hours a week.
If I asked her to message my back she would bust out like I just told a Eddie Murphy/Chris Rock joke. She does not even like to look at me let alone rub my back. I kind of laughed just picturing me ask her that. Oh, no. She is not interested in doing anything for me. I think it would be too much for her knowing she has a boyfriend and all. It would be, "how can I rub my husband's back when I am giving my body to lover X?" I think that is why she is so opposed to me.
I kind of want to spend less time around her so I can deal with the pain, but I am afraid to. I am afraid that the more time I spend away, the more time she will want and actually try to spend with him.

How do you approach her?

Sit her down and talk to her. Tell her you are confused about what's happening. If she broke it off with the OM, does she want to try with you?

Have you suggested couples counseling?

----
I'm the FWW

She does not want couple counseling. We are in counseling, but individually. She is not comfortable talking with me in the room. That being said, I cannot approach her and ask to speak with her. I have told her that I am confused, hurt, dying...you name it, she does not care. She says some of the times that she does not know if she wants to work it out with me, other times she flat out says she does not. She is not in a good place with me. She does not want to talk. She does not want to work it out. She uses every excuse to justify her leaving me. She just wants out. Period. But she is afraid to actually leave. Her loser boyfriend has nothing to offer her. Had he his own place, she would have BEEN gone.

What kind of advice is the counselor giving you? Has your relationship been in trouble for a long time? I hope that you are getting the kind of support you need. We are creatures of habit and the longer we stay in a goofed up cycle probably, the harder it is to break the cycle. There are a bunch of folks here with the experience of these types of problems and they give you survival and comfort measures. You do need to take care of yourself. Show yourself some tlc measures because you are needed. Our children need us desperatly. We need to show each other respect and to think about how our actions effect them. It is natural to want to do what you are trying to do but I think you need to step back one step, get the wife to come to honest terms without anger. How? Get her to read the articles W.Harley so graciously put out here for us to learn. They have helped my marriage along with counseling.

Your W doesn't sound very guilt based on your previous replies.

FWIW, you could be killing yourself taking care of the kids and home, but if that isn't what floats her boat, you're just spinning your wheels. Especially with her feelings for OM, expect to keep being disappointed with those expectations.

To answer a bunch of your questions, you W is a cake-eater who's doing a pretty good job compartmentalizing the A and married life. And I'm sure life-at-home BF is enjoying the situation also.

Like I described before, your probably best off working on the conversation thing for a while and then separating. Let "loser boyfriend" see if he can replace you.

But, there's a lot of aspects about doing that that you might want to be familiar with. And the panic attacks that are your replies are a good indication that you need to develop a better understanding about your situation. Going through the articles on this web site or picking up a copy of "Surviving An Affair" may help. (if you haven't done so already).

In the meantime, here's something to consider. So many folks here have heard the exact same phrases that your W is spouting now. But things worked out.

Solon, welcome to MB. I hate saying that. My first suggestion would be to by Surviving an Affair. Second, get professional help. As well meaning as all of us are, we are also ametuers. While we can give insight based on our own past experiences, your best bet is a professional counselor that is PRO-MARRIAGE. You may also want to consider seeing a doc about some mild antideppresants while you work through this. They can help keep the roller coaster of emotions in check. Best of luck, and keep reading and posting.

MTD

We are here to support each other and I hope that you feel a little better. Do you? This web site has been the best thing for me other than attending counseling. To me there is nothing more important than my family. Sounds like you feel that same way. And I have read many books. I like Willard Harley's philosophy. He is sincerely gifted in the way of communicating about mechanics of marriage. I am new here but there is some seasoned advice, much of which I find helpful! Prayers are with you. wflower

I want to thank everyone for their support. It is much appreciated.
Last night and this morning, however...its rough.
She has continued being nasty to me in the worst way. I, in a soft voice, almost a whisper, would just say, I love you, Rhonda. She told me she was leaving. Her "boyfriend" who she says she does not talk to anymore told her I spoke with his mother. She was very upset about that. After she left for work I called her on her cell, but she would not get off the phone with him to talk to me. She finally did and was nasty to me again. I kindly told her in a soft voice that this was too much pain for me. If she wanted out and she cannot stop talking to this guy, to move out as soon as possible. I begged her to do either one. The pain is UNBEARABLE. I love her so much. She said, "okay". Supposedly, next week she is moving out.
I later called her boyfriend and tried to talking to him. He told me he is like her therapist and is there for her because I have hurt her so much in the past. I tried to explain to him that he is interfering with a marriage and the family is hurting by it and he said that the family is hurting by me. He told me he would not remove himself from the picture and that if she continues to reach out to him he will be there for her. (Oooohhhhh, I wish I was not on the phone with him at that time!) This guy went on to say he believes God wants him in her life!?!? I am so upset right now. Just last week when they "called it off" she was loving me, we were going out and loving life. Now he's back in the picture and she does not want me.

and oh, just last week, she was telling me that she wishes she never met him and she was crying on my shoulder saying she is a bad person and I was comforting her telling her we have all done bad things, but that does not make us so. Now, she is moving out?!?! If she wants to go, then go, but I am keeping my kids.

You are SO right, Jazzy. I have been praying and fasting on this. Deep down, I know God will work all of this out. I just need patience. Patience to deal with it all. It hurts so much. This fool is head strong and dead wrong, but my stupid wife sucks up every little thing he says. The only thing that can happen is for them to do what they have to do. Right now, she is moving out and there is nothing I can do about that.

Solon,

You're probably going to need more than patience. God is not guaranteed to work out your marriage to recovery (if that is what you meant).

Nothing you can do? There's plenty. Stop begging. Stop looking pathetic and undesireable to her. It's probably just pushing at least part of her away as much as it is guilting her to stay.

I get the impression that you feel hopeless and lost. If you're serious about doing the work that it will take to get a handle on your situation and develop a plan I'd say that you have to:

get a good handle on all the relevant articles on this web site or buy/read "Surviving An Affair". A lot of what people will say here is potentialy dangerous without the right background. Maybe you read through the site, but it doesn't seem like you have let it settle in.

and then if you can afford it (probably cheaper than divorce) talk to a good marriage counselor. If you are willing to trade off some extra money for more certainty, give Steve Harley a call.

These steps won't neccessarily save your marriage, but it will bring some sense and explanation for what's going on and give you ideas for what you can do to help your chances and help yourself.

Good luck.

FWIW, Fasting is probably doing enough harm to counteract a lot of the benefits. Losing drastic amounts of weight quickly isn't healthy, and you'll need your energy to keep up. I'd go as far to say that eating healthy should be a given for what you are going through.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: est ]</small>

SOLON, Moving out might be a wake up call for her. She may come around after the fantasy burst. In meantime you can still be loving and considerate. But don't be a door mat!
You said you have treated her horrible in the past. Then said she has cheated too.
Well, sometimes we can treat each other badly too many times and they finally quit trying. People get tired of being hurt, so they go find comfort elsewhere.
Best start praying their relationship fails. God doesn't honor the prayers of adulterers! So their prayers aren't going anywhere if they're like the one my h's OW wrote for God to give them divorces and let them marry. She was actually asking God to sin also.
My H had written the OW that he was looking to getting free and then they'd be together for eternity. I didn't know that at the time, but I suspected an A and I prayed hard for it to fail. Within less than a week, they were through with each other!
God does answer prayers. The right kind though.
I've not cheated on my H, but I've said and acted terrible to him over his two A's.
I can say this even though we've been married almost 31 yrs. If he hurts me again, I will never look back.
If you take your wife back, it's going to have to be with the agreement you both work on salvaging the marriage and leaving this all behind you. NO telling her you're not as bad as her. Is she having revenge A's?
Good luck and God bless, LouLou

Update.
Yesterday the OM called me. (Oh, my! I wanted to do some serious bodily damage to him). This guy has her mesmerized. He says he prays with her and she opens up and talks to him, that God wants him in her life to comfort her because of all the hurt that I have caused in the past (remember, these two have had sex several times). He is saying that they are just friends and that he is like her therapist and he will not stop talking to her. He says that she does not want me and I am the one hurting her, but the week before last when she was not talking to him, she was loving me, making love to me and we were working on our marriage. Now that he is talking to her again she is rude to me and our two children.

When I saw her yesterday evening I did not say much to her. I was still nice. I cooked dinner. I said maybe three neutral sentences to her. Later that night we all did our nightly devotion with the kids (even though she had her face smothered in the bed the whole time. the kids was wondering what was wrong with her).

The other man told me things about her that she told him that has crippled me. I don't even feel anymore. I am numb. There is only a faint reminder of the pain I have been feeling. I am just numb now. I am waiting for her to move out so I can get on with my life. She is confused. She says that all of a sudden the things that I have done in the past is bothering her to the point where she does not like me and that it has nothing to do with this OM. But, at the same time she is very concerned if this OM is seeing someone, has a negative past, or really likes her. She told me, get this, she told me that if I give her some solid proof that he has a girlfriend she will never talk to him again and we can work on our marriage. Now tell me, what kind of nonsense is that!?!?!?