<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I asked H to fill out the EN questionnaire. Well, it was not a "constructive" experience.

I don't know what I was thinking in hindsight. I should have been more careful. The AS and SF parts were awful. He basically could not even fill them out except to say that they did not apply, bcs he did not feel attracted to me. Ouch ouch ouch ouch.

We DO have SF about 4 time/week. It is good...and I know he enjoys it, as do I. I KNOW his head is not all there, bcs he is still in the FOG of the A. What was I thinking when I asked hime to fill out the EN thing...I should have known I was in for more bad news. The thing it...it just hurts so so so much.

He says "you ARE attractive", but he's just not attracted to me. I just want to crawl into a corner and cry. But no...3 kids, work and life goes on.

Am I being immature to be taking this further confirmation of things so badly? I feel I have been beaten, crushed and battered by all this, and I am almost at my breaking point.

H is here, but SO not *here*.

What do I do? Keep having SF with someone who is totally NOT THERE? How to feel good about myself and desirable and How to even approach him under these circumstances? How to keep coping with his total emotional absence???? How did this all happen????????

I am nice looking and fit and take care of myself...I am doing all that. There is nothing else I can do to "make myself feel better"...I just feel awful.

I am still trying so hard to plan A...but I am nearing the end of my rope...I keep thinking things can't get worse, and then of course they do.

How do I cope?????

What would be the benefit of a Plan B at this point???? please help

Eleanor,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>How do I cope?????

What would be the benefit of a Plan B at this point???? please help</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know when you are at the end of the rope ... when you don't care the outcome anymore !. You could say I am ready to go w/ or w/o my H. This is the best time to do plan B ... before You start saying, no matter what I would not take him back, EVER !. You have to decide <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . Meanwhile, give it time for his withdrawal and your plan A to work out. Question. How long was A ? and How was A ended ?.

This is my 2x4 ... you take your H too early. You set yourself up to be treated this way. You have to get him to amend you for the condition to take him back. Beleive it or not .... Orchid took her H way too many times w/o repercaution of his actions. She have learned the hard way, I think you should seek her oppinion.

-rh-

OH Eleanor I know just what you are talking about.
I have always had low self esteem, but, my H always told me how attracted he was to me, and very complmentary.
This new H that I have, told me the same, he is physically attracted to me, but thats it!
There is no more touching, nothing. Its like, he has cut everything off. How do they go from being almost obsessive with you, to NOTHING! (besides that they think they have found everything with this other individual).
It is so painful, I know what you mean.

I don't have good advice for you, except for to keep taking care of yourself, thats what I'm told to do.

I wish you happiness.
K

Hello Eleanor,

Your situation is very similar to mine and I have so much sympathy for you. My H is also at home with me, says he will work on the M but does nothing active, no reading and refuses MC.I still wonder if it is just him and that is the way he is always going to be or is it because he is still in contact with OW? His track record is not good-4 Ddays so far.
We also have frequent SF which we both enjoy but I often feel that he is having sex with me rather than making love. You know the difference don't you?

At least your H agreed to do the EN questionnaire-mine refuses to do anything like that and yet can be very nice and caring at other times.

It is so difficult , isn't it? I wonder whether we could just go along like this for years and yet I also know in my heart that I am starting to lose love for him, I am recognising lots of things about him that I don't like-for example, he has a bit of a Peter Pan complex-he doesn't want to grow up and be confronted by the nasty bits of life. This is at odds with his job-he is a cancer doctor-but in a way it fits as he is in a position of authority and gets to be top of the class and a clever boy but not feel the pain.He does that with me too.

Sorry, I don't mean to threadjack but to empathise. To Plan B or not? That is the question. But would require me initiating separation. What about you?

Regards Deluded

Eleanor-

I remember from your earlier posts that a few things jumped out at me about your story so I'll just go over them and hopefully something will be useful to you.

(1) Your H couldn't provide reasonable assurances that another A wouldn't happen again. And it seems like this had something to do with his fragile makeup, is that right? He has a hard time dealing with failure in business or something along those lines? My thought at the time was that he might be asking a bit much to expect you to understand and accept this uncertainty. I can't begin to imagine the horror of going through a second A with a WS having done it once and still dealing with the repercussions 2 years later. Is it possible he takes the understanding part of your personality for granted? You're going to need to feel safe for your M to thrive.

(2) Another thing that came to mind is that you can't fix your H and make him happy. The last few years my XWW and I were together before the A, I got into this totally disfunctional cycle where I basically lost my own identity in the process of trying to make her happy. It just doesn't work, they need to figure it out on their own.

(3) Something else that jumped out at me was that you sounded like you "had it together". I guess my only reason for mentioning this is so you don't make the mistake of selling yourself short. It's important for you to realize that happiness is out there and is in your future regardless of how this turns out with your H. From what I've read on these forums, lots of BS's don't make the connection that it's that ability to be prepared to move on that actually helps bring about R! Good luck and god bless you and your family!

Redhat:
Thanks for your thoughts.

His A ended bcs he says he ended it. I basically believe him...but boy is he still hung up on that experience. He says it made him decide to leave me, even if there was no OW...he discovered how good he could feel with someone else. I guess you could call it an "exit A"

Then, he decided, based on my early success of plan A, to stay and try. But, he is SO in a FOG..we are getting nowhere fast. He cannot stop letting me know, in every way possible, how little he feels for me.

Question : can plan A include a separation initiated by me? I feel, at this point, that it might be the only way to retain my sanity, keep functionning, and stop lb-ing. Of course, it's risky. It might very well be the beginning of the end.

KEB1205:

Thanks for your thoughts. I urge you to do whatever you can to raise your self-esteem...this is devastaing stuff. My problem has not really been my self-esteem. At the end of the day, I know that this stuff has little to do with me...it's H's issues.

Deluded,
Yes I see similarities between us. I don't know how much longer I can continue this way either. I keep thinking: when what you are doing is not working...do something different. In my case, I am almost ready to take a risk...I need peace and I need it soon.

H agreed to go to a retrouvaille weekend, but I honestly am feeling too low to do that even. That's a FIRST!

Have you considered separation? What is your plan now? are you just waiting and seeing? Does it hurt alot for you?

Litchfield:

You are a very perceptive person, and you gave very very good feedback.

Yes H is very fragile and now he sees how true that is himself. He cannot give me any guarantees about his fidelity, and I actually can appreciate that now...I mean, I wouldn't believe a "blanket" promise at this point. It's one day a time in this respect. His whole self-esteem is wrapped up in his success at work...he "peaked" in the high tech boom, and well, we all know how that's gone in tha last few years. He thinks he will never be that good again...and it kills him. It makes him angry at ME! He projects like crazy.

No I definately cannot fix H, and the issues he has, which I call a combination MLC and depression, are his alone to solve, if and when he decides to. This is hard for me, as I am a fixer, helper, giver. It's difficult to just stop trying to help him.

Have I "got it together"? hmmmmm. One thing that bothers me a bit is that I know when I talk about these problems, or post about them, inevitably, the listener always says that I seem strong, and ok.... How can I give a different impression? I do not feel together at all. But to be honest, do I have a small tiny voice in my head saying that "you will be ok"...yes, I do.

Question: what the heck to do? I want to ask him to leave, so I can relax, think, get my head straight, and put a stop to the constant stress I feel when he's around, depressed and giving off: toxic vibes.

I want to plan A still, but with him being so toxic...I can't!

I don't want any more relationship talks, no more crappy weekends, no more frosty nights in bed...I want peace.

Also, I should mention, I do love the H I married, and want to be married to THAT H.

Thanks for your input.

Hi Eleanor

I had been wondering how you were - glad to see you about, but sorry to hear the situation are in.

OK, now, I know this is slightly an odd take on your original post, but when we talked some time ago you said you couldn't get your H to engage at all in relation to reading any of the info here or doing anything. At least he did try and fill out the ENQ which is something, although of course, the outcome is painful for you.

I was also glad to see in your second post that you realise these are his issues and not yours. Although nothing we can say will make you feel better - I too have moments of extreme lack of confidence and low self esteem, as H's OW said to me "You must have really low self esteem to be calling your husband's GF"!!!!!!! Huuum, not quite, but I think these situations knock our confidence, but keep working on you, get to the gym, take time to get your nails done, go out with mates, whatever it is to boast your self esteem.

Eleanor, I think it would be hard to Plan A if he is not living with you - it goes against the grain, and also, what happens if that fails, when would you go to Plan B? How long have you been in Plan A? Don't let these get to the point where you really have no love left and feel that you just want a DV.

I also wonder if your H might still be in touch with OW. How long did the A last? Either he may still be in touch, or he is deep in fog mode. Remember withdrawal can often last a long time - believe me on that I know too.

Well, I'm sorry this probably hasn't been of much help, but know I am here and wishing you well.

Lisa

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Eleanor-

Whilst I have little to offer and in fact executed a very poor Plan A/B, Cerri has a very good understanding of the concepts so I pasted one of her earlier replies in case you hadn't seen it. One other suggestion I'd make is that if you can muster the energy for Retrouvaille, I'd highly recommend it. Someone in my family went and she's convinced it helped save her marriage! And they've been thriving since! Good luck...

"So, let's talk a little about Plan A and Plan B.

Plan A is a strategy to separate the spouse from the lover. (Or perhaps to pull a spouse out of deep withdrawal, but that's not your issue right now.) Nothing more, nothing less. Plan A will not save or restore your marriage. It is simply a tool to show your spouse that you recognize the contribution you've made to the deterioration of your M, and that you are willing, able, and determined to change those things.

How does it work? Well, first you need to eliminate LBers. No demands, no disrespect, no losing your temper, no dishonesty, and no doing things that annoy or offend your spouse. (annoying behavior does have a qualifier when there is an A, and we will talk about that too.)

And if that isn't enough, Plan A is also about meeting needs. But only as you feel you can. If you can make love with your H and not go away angry and resentful... go for it!! But if not, then don't do it. It will backfire eventually.

In short, Plan A is about being pleasant, courteous, thoughtful, respectful. Most women cannot do Plan A as long as men. Some cannot even do it for a day, the pain of knowing their H is with OW is too great.

Plan A is not about being perfect, being a doormat, or being a perfect doormat! And it can be done in a letter if that is all you can muster. Plan A should have a deadline, it's not an indefinite lifestyle choice.

Plan B is a strategy to protect you, the BS from further pain caused by the cruelty of one's spouse having an affair. It is not punishment, and it's not a wake up call to the WS. The hoped for secondary effect is that the WS will discover that the OP cannot meet all the EN's and will recall the good Plan A work you did.

Plan B is risky. At first it will certainly push the WS into the arms of the lover. But almost all affairs die a natural death. And that is hastened by being exposed to the light of day. Affairs exist and thrive only in secret and in fantasy. Once the harsh realities of life... kids, schedules, finances, laundry (!!) intrude, they lose their appeal.

Soon the arguments set in, withdrawals to the LBnk are made and the A comes to an end.

If you have been doing Plan A for 8 weeks, and he is seeing changes... here's what I would suggest.

First, be honest with yourself about your level of energy to go on. Are you LBing more? Are you sleeping ok? How is your appetite? Are you losing your ability to concentrate? These are things that you need to take into account. Plan A is not sustainable indefinitely, and the more your LBnk drains, the harder it will be to continue.

I would say, plan on another 2-3 weeks. Be pleasant. But be honest. Tell him that you are hurt beyond anything you've ever experienced EVERY TIME he sees or speaks to this woman. Don't tell him you can get by.... tell him he is offending you grievously and that you are in pain.

At the end of that time, I would say go to Plan B.

The 2 biggest mistakes I see over and over again are not going to Plan B in time, and not insisiting on the conditions for recovery. NO ONE wants to do Plan B. It goes against every instinct we have. But MB is about going against instincts. Harley says it over and over again on every topic he covers. Doing what our instincts tell us to do only gets us into trouble.

A Plan B letter should be short and to the point. It must include these

1. I love you

2. I married you for life. I want to stay married to you.

3. This thing you are doing is too painful for me to bear; it is destroying the love I have for you.

4. As long as you have contact with this person, I cannot see or speak to you.

5. When this affair ends, I would love to discuss reconciliation and recovery with you.

6. Until then I ask that you not contact me. All issues relating to children/finances/etc should go through____ who is acting as intermediary."

Lisa,

Good to hear from you! How are you doing? You have not updated your situation in awhile. Are you going to just "wait and see" with respect to a D? Any contact with H?

You are exactly right to wonder: how can I do a good plan A without him at home...and then, if I want to do a plan B...how will that work if he's already out?

I don't know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> !!!!!!

I have been in Plan A since the late fall...so call it 5-6 months. There was some early success in that I managed to turn the situation around...but then...I got exhausted! He's still in withdrawal, and thinks that some magical "love" feeling about me is just going to grab hold of him one day, out of the blue. Of course that's not happening bcs he projects all his stress, thinks about OW...and feels the daily pressure of our life...which is considerable.

That's why I've started to think that being around me is making it MORE possible for him to avoid dealing with reality. I know I am the "red herring" in this whole mess...his problems lie with him, but as long as I am "there", he can still "dump" on me. Am I making sense?

Also, I AM at the point where I am starting to loose love for H, and I am trying to think of a way to preserve it. How????

Litchfield:

Thanks for the plan a/b info. It helps to read about what a good plan A really is, and I realize that I can take my plan A further, with those guidelines.

But, isn't my situation different? H is at home, but DOING NOTHING! He continues to lay about, depressed, morose, withdrawn. Fog, withdrawal, depression...he looks at me in such a way that I KNOW he feels less than nothing for me. It's killing me.

Plan B would not be easy either. We have 3 young kids, lots of activities, and need lots of coordination to make our lives work. It's all so overwhelming.

I feel "bi-polar"...one minute I am SURE that I should ask him to go, then next I think I can hold on a bit longer and we will get through this.

Where do I get the strength and stamina to continue with plan A? 3 small children are helping that...but it's been years of heartache so far.

Thanks SO MUCH for your words...it's really helping.

Eleanor-

You asked how you could find the stamina to continue with Plan A but it really sounds like you're asking how to continue period. Again, I'm no expert but it sounds like you're getting close to the point of no return with Plan B. Don't let your work in Plan A become a moot point because you've lost those feelings for your H. You mentioned earlier how you didn't have the energy for Retrouvaille but are you sure? Is that still a option? If so, go for it!

And I can tell you that what got me through my toughest times were 4 things: Prayer, family, support groups, and exercise. Don't know any of this is helpful but I hope so. When things get desperate, remember that voice you mentioned earlier telling you that things will be okay, because well...they will be!

"People are like stained-glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the sun is out, but when the darkness sets in their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light from within."
~ Elizabeth Kubler-Ross ~

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Eleanor:
<strong>Question : can plan A include a separation initiated by me? I feel, at this point, that it might be the only way to retain my sanity, keep functionning, and stop lb-ing. Of course, it's risky. It might very well be the beginning of the end.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You should not separated while in plan A unless you can't hold LB'ng at all time. Also you have to review your plan A after certain period of time. To check if H is a fence sitter or H is not convinced by your plan A. Remember plan A is not a doormat and give him a blank check to treat you. What have you changed or show to your H that you are capable of changed ? (plan A).

-rh-

ok redhat and anyone else,

what DO you do when H is a fence-sitter, NOT seeing OW, NOT really doing anything to work on the marriage, is STILL in a FOG...and it's been 6 months of this?????

Take into account my decent plan A during that time, and my increasing despair, frustration and and increasing inability to not LB because of it.

any comments welcome

I think he will only shape up when he realizes he is losing you. Give him what he wants. He's not attracted to you, would rather be without you? Let him find out what that is like. Distance yourself, and consider Plan B. You may not have to actually do it, but you will have to seem to your H that you are prepared to do so.

Eleanor:

I am going to copy my reply earlier and modify it ... when to go to plan B ?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> <strong>
You know when you are at the end of the rope ... when you don't care the outcome anymore !. You could say I am ready to go w/ or w/o my H. This is the best time to do plan B ... before You start saying, no matter what I would not take him back, EVER !. You have to decide . Meanwhile, give it time for his withdrawal and your plan A to work out. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However I would check Venusian Lady (CarolKH) post and try it. Plan A doesn't mean that you have to show that you are miserable ... quite the contrary, you know you are making self improvement you should be happy. You should make him guess and don't be predictable !. I would try to go and have make over, buy a new outfit and get a day in the spa. Pampered yourself, your H won't do that right now. Basically through your actions you say "Hey, buddy, I love myself and I would love you be with me but I will move on with or without you ". If he approaches you let him fillin your ENs and give him the payoff ... most men are dogs and we need to be trained. If you are sure A is ended, no OW and you did good plan A for a while even after A ended, I would do 180 degrees. JMVHO

-rh-

Eleanor-

I agree with the others in that he needs a heavy dose of reality. It annoys him that you're around playing supermom with the kids and trying to save the M? Pull the rug out, he'll wake up...

I have ben feeling different in the last few days.

I AM READY!

I am at the point where I KNOW there is nothing more I can to sway H into putting his hear back into our marriage. I KNOW the issues he faces are his own. I LOVE myself, and am starting to see that I will be ok. I would MUCH RATHER be with H, and keep our great family together...but I also know that I can be ok otherwise.

I dont' want anymore sadness, withdrawal, ruined weekends, depressing talks, morose behaviours...none of it.

I want to tell H this: You are welcome to stay. I want nothing more than to live with you in peace love and harmony. I will no longer accept your withdrawal, angry looks, short snapping temper, or need to tell me how much you don't love me. I like me, and feel happy inside and want to share that with you. if you think you can live in a positive way with me, stay.

I understand that you are trying to work out your issues. That's ok. What is NOT ok is spreading your misery and discontent all over me and kids while you are in you funk.

SO, stay if you think you can respect these limits, and if you cannot, then take the time you need to sort things out, away from us.
I will be here for you, the way that I am now, and I will continue to love you and spend time with you in a positive way. When and if you think you would like to return, and live in a more positive way: you are welcome to.

I understand that I am taking a risk of losing you, but at this point I do not think what we are doing is working. I need to create a positve space for me, and if you want to be part of it, you are more than welcome. If not, then you need to figure out what you want.

HOW does this sound?????????

Eleanor,

You have come along way, babe ... LOL !. To put it Dr. Phil way ... "I rather live alone happy rather than miserable together."

It takes a lot to get here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

My prayers are with you and hope HIS grace shine through you and defog H. God Bless you. -rh-

Eleanor,

One favor from you, could you check What is excatly emotional affair ? to help out. Also you could be her if you prolong yourself.

Thanks,
-rh-

Dear Eleanor

You sound together and strong. Good for you. This situation cannot continue indefinitely and your H must decide that if he wants to be with you, then he has a large role to play in putting your M back together.

I think you should also set some boundaries around what that might be. What do you need him to do to stay in the M, not just about moping about. Does he need to read SAA etc.? Only you know what you want him to do to work on things.

Eleanor, I really hope that this will be the jolt he needs to make him realise that he has a lot to loose. Believe me the reality is so very painful and difficult to deal with.

Keep us posted and wishing you well from London.

Lisa

redhat,

favor done! thaks for the tip.