My understanding of an EA is that it is whatever you think it is. If you think the behaviour is inappropriate, secretive and not the way you would carry on with someone else, then it's not appropriate in your M.

I don't think you think it is approriate, so therefore if he is invited to the party alone, I think you would have every right to ask him not to go.

What happened with the phone bills and stuff? Did you ask to see the bills?

Lisa

<strong>"When we talk, he says he knows that I can't trust him and that if I can't get over it that is my problem, there is nothing he can do...." </strong>

I think when he says this, there are 2 points to be made. One is OK, you are a clueless male, I am going to explain to you exactly what you need to do to restore my trust. Cell phone bills etc. Two is, if I can't get over it, it will be your problem, because a shattered family is always a problem to everyone in it.

Just wanted to respond to that particular point. Sorry I haven't been on this thread lately, I was in Mexico with my family for a little vacation and there was no internet!

I think there are signs of hope in your H's actions. The fact that he e-mailed you the note from the friend is good. He may have handled it clumsily, but at least he was making an attempt to be honest with you.

And it sounds like he is making some efforts in other ways as well. The guitar playing moment sounds wonderful. Frankly, I think that your H may be coming out of the fog a bit and is making efforts. Reward these efforts! Do some nice things for him to create a bond. Don't LB. Create some moments that do not revolve around the A, moments between the two of you.

What is the status of the A? Has he broken it off with OW? Is he still seeing/sleeping with her? How is he in terms of being accountable with his time?

Calling the OW- I did that and it helped me but it is something to be very careful about. The bad thing is it gives them something to talk about. (Generally the OW will immmediately call the H after you have spoken to them). The good thing is it explodes the veil of secrecy and lies. You can get everything out in the open. The H will not like the contact one bit because it exposes the lies he is telling to each of you.

Has H definitively ended it? And showing you cell phone bills? Yes, he could get another cell or he could go to a pay phone. But people like to conduct these affairs with ease and they don't enjoy the hassle of deception.

You might put it like, I need to know it's ended, you need to figure out how to prove it to me, and if you can't I will need to get my information on the status of the affair from OW. Don't LB or let him suck you into LBing with those statements.

It has to become a calm, mathematical algorithm. 1) This affair has turned you into a liar and a cheater 2) I don't want to share my life with a liar and a cheater 3) I love you too much to see you debase yourself by living a life of lies and cheating- if you need to go to OW, so be it 4) If you want to stay with me, you need to prove your honesty and rebuild my trust.

Figure out what you need from him and tell him what it is. Be clear and respectful but firm. Don't let him push you into an LB. It should be simple "I need copies of your cell phone bills". "I need copies of your cell phone bills". "I need openness and honesty between us".

Regarding the school friend- how would your H feel if you started cultivating "private" male friends, e-mailing them etc? Is he OK with that? Under no circumstances should he go to his reunion without you, and it might be better if the two of you don't go.

Has your H always been a cheating type? Is this a behavior he will never let go of?

Thanks Lisa and Espoir.Hope Mexico was fantastic.

Lisa I don't think the email correspondance is an EA, there is no emotional stuff, it is pure sexual innuendo-though it seems to me from reading it that it is mostly coming from her, H responds flirtatiously , she pushes but he responds in kind, eg offering her the "full body snog", she responds with offering him that plus the"full body stroke and full body tease" to which he replies simply" Thanks I'll take it"

Espoir, my H has never cheated on me to my knowledge until OW. Then I found out about the email friend and also the pregnant friend who has been overly friendly. Loking back, there have been several women who have made overtures towards him-eg his secretary when we first arrived here drove 15 miles out of her way to pick him up until we got a car. To be fair, he didn't know she was doing this, didn't know where she lived, and stopped it when he did realise. Then there was a friend of mine who told him just before we moved to Australia for a few yrs that she would like to get to know him very much better. He didn't tell me about her for 2 yrs, told me about it but not who. Same thing about a friend of ours who he was at Med school with-she was getting friendly at our leaving party and his brother warned him to avoid her.
There was also a girl he worked with who he was friends with, but on the few occasions we went to her house she invited both of us. And once there was an unknown woman at work who was in love with him, according to someone else.
To my knowledge he has mever responded to these women apart from generally flirtatiously-that never bothered him as I completely trusted him. His behaviour towards me with OW on the scene was what started me snoping. Based on that I don't think so.
But if he is a serial adulterer then I need to know because frankly, much as I do love him, I can't live with that.
If as you say, this clumsy attempt to be honest with me is him starting to de-fog, then I don't want to LB by accusing him of a second A.Part of me does want to let OW know she is not the only one though,.....but I won't.

As far as contact goes with OW I just don't know because he has always been very secretive about her-it's not something he flaunts to me or anyone.He says no contact. She lives300 miles away but they can talk at work and email at work.I have no reason to believe he is lying(other than , as they say"custom and practice"). The fact that he sent me the email and admitted that the pregnant friend is flirting with him , plus the fact that he is being much warmer towards me and is tking more interest in me, is all positive. we have started running together when we can and he is very admiring and encouraging. He is agreeing to go to things with me /us as a family that he would have baulked at before.And he has definitely notived that I have changed-he mentioned how much happier and settled I seem now.

But the thing is, I accepted as harmless his need to banter with and be admired by women -including his Mum and his daughters by the way!-when I thought he was faithful. Should I have been warned by the fact that I knew as he had told me that he slept with anothergirl when away from his long term girlfriend when he was 21? And was unfaithful to another girlfriend when he was 25 when they were living apart in different cities? I always thought that it meant the relationships weren't serious. Was I wrong then, is he a serial adulterer?

I haven't asked him about the mobile phone bills. I did talk to his brother who is trying to be fair but is not above having fun with married women himself he says!Anyway he says that asking for the bills would be a major LB and wouldn't stop any contact, which I know.

Also Espoir-if I were an OW and the BS called me to ask about the status of the A, would I not tell her that it was ongoing even if it wasn't, in the hope that she would then kick her WH out so he would come running to me?

Bumping for replies. I just keep going back to read the emails. He wrote one of them 2 days after we got home from Mum's funeral.They have a dessert analgogy going on-he is a treacle tart, she just has to have a nibble of...he says its intriguing and has to be "addressed" before she returns to Sydney later in the year. I just keep obsessing over this. is he a serial adulterer?

Oh deluded....I really feel for you!

There are many similarities in our situations. My H has had 2 A's, and although there is not contact right now, with ow#2, H is very much in a fog, on the fence, undecided about me and our marriage. He too hardly reacts when I tell him that I think he should leave and sort out his issues elsewhere.

How to jolt him into Recovery?

Recently, I have been feeling much stronger, and have been setting firm boundaries about the kinds of behaviour that is acceptable with me, and in the house. I told him: stop doing xyz, or go. Very calm. For the first time ever, I really meant it.

Well, wouldn't you know it, he's managed to pull up his socks a bit and ack like a human in the house. He only responds to the extreme "threat"...but in this case, it was no longer a threat.

The only thing I can tell you is that you will only be able to set effective boundaries once you are "there"...once you are at the point where you really will not take it any longer. And it's not because of a damaged ego on your part...it will be because you really really want to move forward, and to so degree, you are willing to roll the dice with your H.

As for your H being a serial adulterer: who knows? I know that, to some extent, behaviour patterns can be ingrained, but why trouble yourself with this un-answerable question? Maybe he is, maybe he is not. You have to decide what your boundaries are, and then it's up to him to stay inside those boundaries?

How will it help the situation to think that your H may have trouble being faithful forever...you cannot answer that now, and honestly, it's not fair to him, or the situation. Take things one day at a time, for now, and decide that you will not accept unfaithfulness or this kind of hurt from him ever again. You will let him know how to win your trust back, and then you will have to be willing to trust again.

gotta go
good luck

Hi Eleanor,

your post was more helpful than you can know-i feel calmer today and you are so right, I can not legislate for future transgressions on his part but work on things now. I will let him know that I will not tolerate any more though.

He is away again and last night I phoned him. Had to phone 3 times before I got him finally, after midnight. Oh dear,Mt Deluded erupted again.

I am definitely fueled by alcohol too. I shouldn't have phoned. But in a way I am glad I did. Because although I LB'ed big time, H was calm and willing to talk and....wait for it....I FINALLY GOT MY APOLOGY FROM H-AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENET OF RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!!!!!

On the down side, he denied ever saying some of the hurtful things I remember. But I guess I can live with that.Especially as he also denies that they are true now!.

We also talked about how he has lots of women who flirt with him. I told him it must be something in his affect/ manner that gives out signals that he might be receptive,and he agreed and said he had stopped doing some of the stuff he was as he had become more aware that it was misconstrued. he has always been easy for women to talk to, he is very physically attractive and tall too.He did point out to me that the email friend he has known since he was 11. I still think-know-that the conversations via email were out of line and he agreed and said they have stopped at his instigation.

He told me he has really enjoyed being at home and out with me lately and in the past 6 weeks-which conicides with him really starting to make that extra effort-he has started to feel happy and that things were fixable.

So i feel more optimistic today and will continue to work on me. I worry that my angry outbursts are real LB's but in a way H said he knows there is an angry woman inside me and understands that, he is not unintelligent.Oh and he said he hpes that I can find something outside of home-work related-to give me the feeling of achievement and recognition that he has, and knows that I envy him for. Professional jealousy. He pointed out that whilst I say that he would not be supportive of me, I have never put him to the test as I always drop out of whatever it is.That is true/

I am so hopeful now that the A is truely over. I just want to start working on us and our relationship and try and rebuild. I am a better person already and I want to keep working away on me and my plan -H is already noticing.

Any support, views, encouragement or even views to the contrary gladly accepted!

Bumpety bump

Hi!

Mexico was WONDERFUL.

I think there is hope. Your last conversation with your H sounds like it went very well. You are right that he won't remember some of the worst stuff he said to you, I know mine didn't. But an apology- that's good.

As for your angry outburst- hey none of us are saints. And yes it is an LB- but on the other hand it is also a consequence of his behavior. If he treats you badly and cheats on you sure you will get angry. Make this clear to him though. Tell him you don't like getting angry at him, you don't want that kind of relationship, but his cheating makes you very upset and very angry.

Yes you are right that OW will lie to you if you speak to her. Or if she tells you the truth it will be to hurt you. And it can be dangerous in pushing your H and her together. Also you can never lose your temper at OW or be anything but extremely gracious to her.

When I spoke to OW it was mainly useful because it demystified her to me- I realized that she was just a superficial and selfish woman who seized on my H because she thought he offered her a better life than what her own H could offer her. Once I knew that I had more self confidence about myself.

I made it clear that I was going to fight for my marriage and I also hinted that we were sexually active together. I also told her, in our second and last conversation, that she should find a man that would be excited and thrilled to be at her side and have a first child together- not my H who already had 3, doesn't want more. Don't know if that concept pierced her tiny pea brain or not. I do believe that she became disillusioned with my H and that she realized that he would not be the dream lover she had concocted him to be.

I think the e-mails your H is conducting with his old friend are completely inappropriate. Is this the woman who is pregnant? Those e-mails have to stop now. If I was in that situation my blood would be boiling and I would consider showing the e-mails to her H or at the very least telling her to stop communicating with your H like this. The problem is however in your H- he is happy to do this with her. IT'S WRONG AND INTOLERABLE!

Your H's past history sounds as though he is okay with cheating in his relationships although a girlfriend is not a marriage. And it sounds as though he has been largely faithful. But the flirting is dangerous and wrong.

However I should add, you do need to build on the progress of the last six weeks which sounds positive and hopeful!!!

Hi Deluded,

Hope your weekend has been preaceful. Today is the first decent spring day we've had in Montreal. It's glorious!

I recognize the symptoms that your h has. He is attractive to other women, and seems to be glorying in it in a way that he never used to! It's like a second adolescence. He cannot say "no" to the attention or advances of women...it's too flatering/powerful. I think it has about 100% to do with self-confidence on his part. My H also is attractive, and never seemed to "notice" it about himself....I always thought he was, but never made a big deal of it...why would I?

But I guess I never realized that inside, he wasn an insecure boy, who felt he had never had his proper validation as a he-man out there. he was quite a wallflower when we hooked up. Well, now, with the attention he's gotten from women, it's like the shy teen is coming out of his shell!

It's alarming to me! I mean, why didn't he get over all that 15 years ago like the rest of us? I don[t know about your H, but my never had that "wild" few years in Univesity like me and others have had.

Maybe I digress here too much. I think our H's need to mature, sow those wild oats, somehow, and mature. Hopefully that "sowing" can occur through dialogue, sharing with you, and making the cahnges in your Marriage that you both need.

As for me, I am not sure that "safe sowing" is going to occur. I think my H has to be set loose by me, and that's what I am doing right now. I have realized that I cannot think that i "have him" just because he's in the house. I see how much that is not the case.

I am wondering if I am crazy to be asking him to leave..this site of full of advice that says: he will drift away if he's not home, you can't do a decent plan A if he's not there...I don't knnow anymore, I have beenin plan A for over 6 months...and all I have is a SERIOUS fence-sitter.....I cannot take it anymore.

I think I have threadjacked you...sorry.

It sounds like your H is coming around. That's a great sign. Keep working on you, and keep the demons of worry and jealousy at bay. If he wants to cheat/talk to the women...HE WILL. All you can do if keep offering him the WOMAN that you are, the woman he loves, and trust that this will work itself out. You need to know where you stand...absolutely. If there is contact, or more, you need to re-evaluate the plan...but right now, it sounds stable...go with it.

I'll check in with you later.

E

Hello Espoir and Eleanor, and thankyou.

I'm glad you're having nice spring weather Eleanor, we have had some glorious sunshine here in the SouthWest of England too but now it's reverted to type and is cold grey and drizzly.

I agree with your desciption of your H exactly-he matches mine. I call it a Peter Pan syndrome-I told my H that and he laughed me to scorn("where did you get that from-an American website?"). Actually I don't know where I got it from but it fits-my H , like yours, glories in being attractive to women. He was always quite shy and for a long time, the only women he would relax around were some of my friends, then gradually when he started going to meetings and conferences and meeting attractive women who were available, he realised how easy it could be.He tells me that conferences are like that but that he was always being "invited" to play away, as they say, but never did until OW.

And now I am hearing that there are actually quite a few women who find him attractive and who are trying to be friendlier that they should be. A pregnant colleague, one of the secretaries from work who moved to another department and keeps emailing him,this old school friend etc.

I don't want to make him leave. But equally I don't know how to impress on him that this is not acceptable and is dangerous. Fortuitously yesterday in the newspaper there was an article on Friends Reunited, the website that lets you get in contact with old schoolfriends. It was about how easy it is to renew old relationships. I showed it to H and hope he read it-he certainly flicked thru it.

He has promised me he will no longer email the schoolfriend and has no interest in the pregnant woman, I can tell.I know that most of these women are no threat-after all he has an attractive intelligent wife who has professional status, runs a pleasant home(just discovered Flylady-so simple but I love it!)and brings home a not inconsiderable income! But this is the thing-how to impress on him that another A , EA or PA is not on.

Maybe it's this simple-tell him that, and then get back to improving ME-because improving me is fun! I like having my laundry up to date,my house tidy, and my work up to date. I like to have the time to work on my writing, and to train for my first ever charity run!

This thing is not over yet. I know my H-he takes me for granted and it may take a lengthy separation for him to realise that he has to stop the destructive behaviour. But I do believe that in the end he will be with me because that's where he is meant to be.

What a bizarre mix of logic and fate!

I have my bad days but I can lift myself out of them, usually without LBing.

We had a good Sunday. H got back from Zurich late on Sat-arrived home an hour early and surprised me by driving into the garage whilst talking on his mobile phone to me!
Then we had a quiet family(is that an oxymoron-certainly is in my house!)day with a bit of gardening, a bit of playing-we found a website that sells beautiful hand painted ties that H had been hankering after-he's a clothes snob now-and ordered a few.Then I was de-cluttering in the bedroom and H asked me to de-clutter some of his socks etc. Before I knew it he was there with me de-cluttering his side of the wardrobe. We unpacked his case together(the one I packed for him when I told him to leave 3 weeks ago). Then we had a nice family dinner and I ironed whilst he cleared his paperwork in front of a movie together.

This morning he lingered over two cups of tea with me and I waved him off to work with a kiss and a broad smile.
He complimented me on my efforts yesterday too. I explained that I wanted to make the house more streamlined and pleasant.He also started filling cracks and painting in our hall -it's good when one of us starts doing stuff at home-the other usully joins in and we always feel good for havng done it.

I'm up to date with my laundry too!

Espoir, thanks for your advice. Yes I think things are improving in the past 6 weeks. I apologised yesterday for my angry outburst and told him I did not like being angry with him but that those emails, however innocent they seemed to him, made me feel very hurt. I asked him to stop and he said,"I've stopped". He also said he is not gong to her 40th and that actually I was invited too.(No proof of that but I will let it go). She is going back to Oz soon. I did think about emailing her to let her know that I am shocked and offended but I probably won't.
I also thanked H for sending me the emails and he pointed out that it had backfired. I said no it hadn't, that his timimg was off(as I had not seen it until he was on his way to Switzerland for 3 days)

You know there is s cynical part of my Deluded brain that tells me this could be distraction tactics-to get me off the sniff of OW. But his actions and manner towards me are so much better-he snuggled up with me last night and I woke up with his head on my shoulder and his arm across me.That's been missing for over a year.

Don't worry about threadjacking Eleanor-I will try and catch up with your thread today , I am sorry to see that you are separating or considering it?

Deluded

HI Deluded,

It sounds like you and your H are making great progress. And, it sounds like your attitude about YOU is right on! Of course other women cannot compete with you! You do have your act together, and are the perfect mate for your H. It sounds like you are doing all the right things to take care of yourself, and are feeling a great sense of confidence and optimism. You sound strong. Don't worry, I know how those "other" feelings cane emerge and overwhelm you, and they will, but you are on the right path.

I don't really have a current thread going right now. My update is: I have asked him to leave. H is chronically on the fence with me. Is at hime, but not willing to really do much to imrpve our mariage/lives. He lives in the past, that he has "revised" with lots of imagination! His last A, it was also a EA, caused him to "review" our entire history, with me as the "bad guy", that he never loved like he should, etc etc etc.

Ironically, we are getting along well, very well, there is calm betweeb us like never before. I feel strong, for this first time in ages, and sure that I want H, and a loving marrige with him. I want our family, our life, our home. But, the problem is: H is not "on board" and has not been for at least 1 year now. I could take it for months, and have, but I am looking for a new solution...a 180. Clearly, my plan A was NOT shaking him out of the fog. ALthough he admits that I am doing it all right, that there is nothing more he could ask from me! It's just that he is not "into it".

I think he's lost alot of confidence in himself in terms of being a good mate to me, in view of his obvious trouble with staying faithfull. I don't blame him. He lost confidence in himself when his last business venture did not work out...he defines himself that way. ALso, our 3 young children can bring out the crazed parent in anyone...so you see? lots of ways in which H is just not in a great place.

My "view" is that: I am just a mirror for H in which he sees the things he does not like about himself, or his percieved "failures"...he has not "seen" me in years...so frustrating for me. Like you, I look nice, run marathons, am a professional, run a tight house ship, and am generally perceived as a good friend and fun gal! SO what the heck is his problem????

I don't know what will become of this separation. I am terrified that he will invest elsewhere...but you know...part of me hopes that whatever questions/issues that he has about himself and us, can be worked out once and for all, and if that means he seeks out someone else...so be it...(I am cringeing as I write this, ouch!)

My H too loves to putter around the house fixing things, and organizing. We have a lovely home that he is very proud of. All these things I mention make me somewhat confident that he will choose me and the kids...but I am prepared for anything at this point. I have been through so much, and have been surprised so many times....I know I can be very wrong about things.

Part of me thinks I am insane to ask him to leave...but I keep going back to the test: is what I doing working? NO! try something else!

Please keep up the wonderful attitude you have, and even if there are dips in your mood, know that you can pull yourself out of them! and you will!

E