Can anyone tell me what's going on inside WS's brain? I know I probably have asked same questions before, but it's driving me crazy!

WS keeps hanging around the house. He came in last night, walked in the kitchen and heated something up in the microwave and then sat down to watch tv. He keeps asking if we can all go away together over the weekend for a mini family vacation. Yet when he is around he doesn't talk to me at all. He absolutely won't address the problems we are having. We are seperated for heaven's sake! Don't you think a light bulb should have gone off by now? (don't hit me over the guys, I know he's in a fog, but I'm still venting).

But my bigger question is if he's uninterested in doing the hard work to restore this marriage, what is he still doing by hanging around? Is he just riding the storm out to ease his conscience so that he can finally split?

Guys, I know the answer to alot of this, but I need to keep my sanity. Any advice on how to keep myself from falling apart? I hate this limbo business. It would be better if he just either stayed or left. Not this fence sitting bs!

Thanks for listening. I am just having a down day and need a pick me up.

Obviously he's conflicted. He likes the comforts of home and plans on taking advantage of having the best of both worlds as long as you will let him!

You have the ultimate control over how long this goes on. There are natural consequences to choosing to be separated, as long as you don't save him from them. Right off the bat , one of the natural consequences of being separated is you just don't get to walk into the BS home and grab a bite to eat and then sit as long as you like. If you allow that to occur then what consequences does he have for moving out and abandoning his family?

He's asking to go away on a family vacation. Here is another big clue to you that he really wants his family, he want's the fun and excitement that comes along with a vacation. He deep down knows things can be good but wants to vacation instead of doing the WORK to make the better be long lasting. Use this knowledge to your advantage. Go on vacation, show him the woman he fell in love with. Then if he chooses to stay separated he needs to know there are consequences to that choice. LIMBO LAND HURTS LIKE HELL! You can tell him that it's just too much emotional pain for him to come and go as he pleases and be separated at the same time and put an end to that nonsense. No consequences to the behavior = no motivation to change! You must take responsibility to do your part in providng the consequences that will motivate him to change. Otherwise, he'll be eating cake forever and you'll continue to be miserable.

Don't you think that by going on a family vacation w/ him is also letting him "have his cake?" It's true i need to enforce stronger consequences. I guess I'm not up for more of his hostility.

Is there anything I can say to motivate him? So far all talks have gotten me nowhere. I honestly don't know what to say anymore. I will make a point today to enforce "no cake eating visits" b/cause otherwise I'll never make any progress.

I think that going on a family vacation is more to your advantage than it is his, IF you stay away from relationship talk and focus on being the woman he fell in love with and strictly have a good time. Then when everyone is back home and he's living where ever he's living he's got a recent reminder of what he's truly missing and giving up if he doesn't get his act together.

This only works if he's got consequences to being separated. The vacation thing has no value if when you come home he still gets to come and go as he pleases. There would simply be nothing to miss.

You've got to let go of his anger. Keep telling yourself it's about him and NOT you. He's mad because he's conflicted and confused and really doesn't know what he wants to do. That's a good thing. It's better than if he were indifferent. My H was sooo angry and hostile and mean. He would literally come home and be mean to the dog to get me and my daughter going, so then he would have a legitimate(in his mind) reason to be mad at us. WS will try to bait you with their hostility to draw you into a conflict so they feel further justified in continuing their poor marital behavior. It won't work if he can't "bait and hook" you. If he can't draw you into conflict and you rise above his poor behavior and stick to strong boundaries,improve and protect yourself, you'll be giving him LOTS to think about. Let him be mad.He's actually mad at himself and using the defense mechanism of projection transferring the anger at you instead of at himself. This is ALL TOO COMMON to the WS.

Do not waste your breath talking to him. It is futile to try to educate the WS. It is often a very powerful loverbuster as it implies something is wrong with him and you know how to fix it. Leave him alone to figure it out himself, wish him the best. Tell him you love him and that you wish things could be different. Let him see you making improvements in yourself and do not be at his every beck and call. It's more attractive to be a little less available. Let him wonder a little about what your doing. That is a natural consequence of being separated. Use this time to let him really feel what it might be like if he were to choose to leave for good. Otherwise, if you don't, and he doesn't choose to stay, it will take a divorce before he gets the true picture. Hopefully you can prevent it from getting that far.

Well, I'm learning as I go along here.Last night WS and I finally talked. It's really hard for me not to LB b/cause I'm trying to process all this stuff. But mthrrhbard had a really valid point regarding my trying to talk to him. I was wasting a lot of precious oxygen "trying to educate" him. I don't think I've even realized that until tonight. WS and I were trying to hold a civil conversation and he said he felt like I was scolding him. In a way he was right. I apologized to him and told him that wasn't my intention.

I've been working all these months trying to do what everyone has recommended...working on myself and for me personally I see progress. And b/cause I've read just about every book under the sun about marriage and affairs, I'm feeling more "educated" on this subject. I probably sound like a jail house shrink coming from WS!

On the up side though, he is going w/ me tomorrow to meet w/ counselor. That is a good thing. I'm praying that we will be able to get down to the hard work necessary to have a brand new marriage.

But there is one thing I am struggling w/ now...ME. I'm feeling so detached to my H. I feel I don't even know who he is really now. When this mess began, although I was upset, I still got butterflies when he was around. I felt like I wanted to show him the love and affection he's been craving from me..(and I did). Now I feel like a stranger around him. It's like going out on a date and trying to keep an interesting conversation going.

He still relays a tremendous amount of hostility toward me. And for the life of me I cannot understand why he would want to put forth the effort to reconcile when his body language says "I despise you". Will I ever be able to recover any loving feelings for him? I just feel so hurt by all that has happened and I know I could never attempt to be a wife to him in the way it was before. I'm so afraid that I might get stuck in that same rut again. It's time for me to have a healthy relationship. A Godly relationship. A loving relationship. Do you guys think we both will be able to accomplish this together? Or am I just kidding myself?

Thats great, my H whom is leaving with his gf and not dirvorce. He called before I left to go see Lover Boy in concert (great concert) and I told my son for him to call back becuse I was gong on vacation, so he did. My H called and told my son. )abour toing back

Who ever is posting as me get your story straight, I told my son for my H to call back because I was getting ready to go, not to go on vacation. Who is that??

Your feelings are normal. Some of those feelings hang around for a very long time even when working through a strong recovery. Most oldtimers will tell you they didn't start to feel "normal" again until about two years after recovery starts. Don't get ahead of yourself, take one day at a time and appreciate the baby steps along the way. He's going to counseling, that's a great thing. Give him lots of verbal positive reinforcement for his efforts in that regard and let him know how much you appreciate it.

Then go about doing what you must to strengthen and build yourself up, stick to strong boundaries and try to give him little "nuggets" to think about. Your actions will speak way louder than your words, as his will as well. The anger is a smoke screen. I know it's really hard, but do not focus on how angry he is. It really is a denfense mechanism. WS use it to try to manipulate BS. See it for what it is and ignore it. Do not let him use it to bait you and pull you into conflict, and do not let it hurt your feelings. It's his anger, you do not have to own it as being about you! Hang in there. You can have a wonderful marriage after all of this. If God transformed me, my H and my marriage, He can do the same for yours as well. Be still, seek Him through His Word and listen to Him. He's waiting for you and He'll ALWAYS be faithful!

Well, we went to counseling this morning and it didn't go well at all!! The counselor was asking about why WS has done things the way he has done them...secret purchaces of women's clothing...hidden email accounts...unexplained itineraries for travel...and the last one, leaving the country w/out telling me...

Counselor said that it didn't look in his favor by these actions. He also said that if he indeed did have an affair, he needed to fess up. He also said that we would NOT be able resolve any other marital issues until the current one is dealt with.

WS continued to explain his well rehearsed response as to why he has done everything the way he has done them and that it was all for good reason. He has had an explanation for everything and honestly I can't stand to listen to one more word!!!

Things just got more heated in there and I just had enough. I'm angry and I'm sick and tired of his little morsels of kindness only to turn around and blast me with something he feels the urgent need to tell me what is wrong w/ me. He's so busy being angry he hasn't noticed any positive changes that have occured in me over the past two years!

The counselor said that we both needed to write down our feelings instead of saying them b/cause we are too angry. Talking is getting us nowhere he said. He wanted me to write out what my concerns are and he's supposed to answer them. The counselor didn't even recommend and appointment for either of us. He did say he would talk to my WS one on one, but WS didn't seem remotely interested.

When we left the office, things got worse. He was boligerent and hostile toward me. Neither one of us should have said a word to each other but emotions were high. He tried to close his car door w/ me standing there and I reached in and slapped his face. That was ALL the anger boiling inside me and it finally came out.

I'm so tired of crying. I'm so tired of waiting. Ws called me in car after that scene and asked if I thought what I did was going to get me anywhere. Then he hung up. Of course in my anger i called back and told him that if it was a divorce he wanted, it was a divorce he would have.I told him to stay away from me.

It's funny too, yesterday I was in my attorney's office and he was asking me how things were going. I told him about the counseling and we both decided that I would leave the seperation for now. I decided not to move forward w/ that for now. My attorney even scheduled my first court appearance in a couple of weeks. he said he would take it off the calendar and that I should contact him if I needed him. WHAT A WASTE OF TIME BECAUSE I AM THE BIGGEST FOOL. I was stupid to be hopeful that my marriage could work. All WS wants me to do is to absolutely agree w/ everything he wants to do and keep my mouth shut. Otherwise I am demanding and controlling!

Anyone tell me out there just why I shouldn't go ahead w/ this divorce and leave this awful city?! Why would I want to stay married to a man who holds nothing but contempt for me? I DON'T WANT THAT KIND OF SICK TWISTED LOVE!!! I thought I have been doing well and I thought that I was doing what God wanted me to do to honor Him, but I see myself as a huge failure and I'm just kidding myself. It's not in the cards for me to be loved the way I have envisioned it.

I'm so sorry that you counseling session did not go as you would have liked. It sounds pretty much as expected for a first session where WS is still in the fog.

What concerns me is what happened afterwards. He baited you again, and hooked you too. If anything is going to work here you must control your behavior. You have to be the one to change the patterns of how the two of you interact.I will suggest a book entitled How one of you can keep the two of you together. (title something close to this). it details how the patterns of interaction in a relationship change when one person is consistent in changing their responses and behaviors. If you do not respond in a way he expects then he is thrown off kilter. When you yell and scream and slap him you validate everything he's feeling. You can't control him but you can most definitely control yourself.

You need to take a break from all of this for a short time. Can you get away for a few days for some alone/down time? Do you have kids?

Yes, I have the next few days available. I have 3 kids and they are off from school through Mon. I was thinking of getting away maybe something fun w/them, but Easter is here. I have absolutely no plans as far as holiday is concerned. The only real family I have is my H's and noone's said anything about spending time together. Initially WS was seeking to take the kids and me away for a few days. I didn't want to go then and really don't want to go now. Should I just take a little get away w/ the kids or let Ws take them and I go away somewhere. I know that if I am alone, I will probably cry all weekend.

I shouldn't have allowed myself to get all riled up. I know this by now. And for the most part I have been able to distance my emotions and keep calm. I just feel as if I am at the end of my rope. All the people around me have been complimenting me on my strength and have noticed changes in my attitude. I have learned more and more to lay things at the Lord's feet and people recognize my faith. I'm having such a hard time understanding how the person I have loved so much cannot see any redeeming value in me.

More than anything right I would like to live anyplace else but here. His entire family is on my street and between my Ws and FIL I never have any time for myself. They come and go anytime they want, several times a day. I love my FIL and he needs my care. He's 87 and the 3 sons that live here on this street do nothing to make sure he is fed. He lives in a house that is so cluttered and dirty it should be condemned. None of his sons have the guts to step in and make sure he's cared for properly. So I feel that if I left the street or the state it would be just a matter of time before I come back to his funeral.

I hate that I got so angry today. Everyone thinks I am keeping it all together but they don't see me in the night time. I'll look for that book you suggested. I'll continue to pray for guidance. When will the pain subside? I'm feeling just as terrible as I did when I hit D/day.

ljkm3,

I got your message. Now don't get mad but a lot of what you need has already been given to you. Mtthrbrd is great. Please read her posts again. Inside you will see her wisdom giving you direction. I read it, it is there.

Inbetween your anger and tears, you have missed vital info. Read it again and then post your thoughts.

Hugz,
L.

<small>[ April 18, 2003, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

I left my FWS with my three kids for 4 days and went off to have some alone time to regroup about a month after d-day. I cried about 1/2 the time but took books and focused on pulling my emotions together and coming up with a plan. I simply told him that the emotional upheaval was preventing me from being a good mother and I had to get away. Gave him a good taste of what it would be like to have 3 kids on visitation if he ever decided to divorce. Don't ask him ,just tell him what you are going to do. He didn't ask you if it was ok for him to inflict the emotional pain of an A on you, did he?

The pain will not start to subside until you take your focus off of him and focus firmly on God, yourself and your kids. You cannot do anything to change him, you cannot control is actions. Direct your energy in a more positive direction that you can control.

Thanks you guys, I don't know what I would do if you all weren't here. Orchid, I am not mad at all by what you said. I'm here to learn and to correct the patterns of behavior that I have used in the past. The information I have been receiving here is priceless!

I have had a long day with this weighing on my mind. I know my anger and tears got in the way of rational thinking. What I'm getting (way too slowly) is that I need to be consistent in my responses and behaviors. This is really new to me in application. I have been able to do this on some level but it's clear to me that I was putting too much attention on Ws's behavior and anger and that stunted my ability to flourish.

You know what? I'm just now realizing how much control my WS has had over me and my emotions. I'm always thinking in the back of my mind how he is going to feel, if something will upset him. I have turned down things that will make me happy to just not "rock the boat". No wonder I keep reverting back to the emotional wreck I have always been. It's going to take a lot of hard work on my part I can see to overcome this. Does anyone have any input about things they've applied as they went along? I will keep reading to educate myself and I will continue to study God's word. My greatest strength will come from Him. The Lord must be impatient w/ me by now b/cause it's obvious I'm a slow learner.

I don't know how others can keep their heads on straight w/out using support from places like this forum. Thanks again for listening.

Dear ljkm3,

Don't worry about any anger towards us, we can just click off anger or not even read the thread!!! LOL!! Just kidding.

You have now hit a turning point. See how you are able to think clearer by focusing on you instead of H's emotions?

Keep up the good work. It won't all be uphill but it will get easier to handle.

Yes, this is a good place. I am also glad I found MB. Mtthrbrd was one of my lifesavers when I came here. I want her to adopt me but I think I am older than she is!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, we all learn from each other. Old and newer posters alike.

take care and keep moving forward!

L.

Oh, Orchid you made me giggle! How 'bout we be cyber sisters?

ljkm3, God isn't impatient with you. Praise His glory and grace, He isn't impatient with any of us. He waits and waits for us to get it. Sometimes He hits us over the head with a 2x4 but He's always patiently waiting for us to seek Him , ask for His help and sit by His feet to learn what good things He has promised us.

I'll tell you the greatest thing God wanted me to learn from my H's A was that I had been depending on MYSELF too much. I forgot about HIM. I thought I could put things into motion,make the majority of the decisions, control the daily comings and goings of my family, keep us all together and happy. WOW did He ever pull the rug right out from under me! When my H had his A and after giving it up STILL didn't know if he wanted to stay in the marriage I was a complete, utter wreck. God wanted me to put it all at His feet, give everything to him, my family, the life I had planned, my vision of our future as a family and a couple. He did it to make me regain my focus, to get me to focus where I had neglected to for many, many years. I sat up and took notice,let me tell you. You know what, what a relief it was to give the burden to Him. I was miserable as long as I tried to hold onto it. He had His own plan and I had to align my will with His. His plan has turned out to be more beautiful than anything I could have ever imagined. My H is a changed man. I never would have believed it could happen or be the marriage it is now. God changed my H when he surrendered to Him. God is sooo faithful to make us NEW when we abide in Christ. It's amazing. I am forever grateful and will never wander away like I had in the "old" marriage.

Be patient, get away for awhile. Even if you can't do it right this moment, plan to go away for a few days even if just for a weekend, all by yourself. It will refresh and calm you and help you to be more objective. Another MUST READ is James Dobson's Love Must Be Tough. Get it soon! All the best to you. A blessed and happy Easter to you and your family!

Ok, I made it through Easter. I didn't go out of town or anything. I really NEED to get some alone time, this is for sure!

This past weekend was highly stressful for me and it was the toughest job to try to stay remotely sane. Here's what happened. On Sunday I took the kids to church and WS called to see what our plans were for the day. He said he had some baskets for them and they could go down to get them or he could drop them off. I said the kids could get them on our way to church. So that's what we did. Then while we were in church, WS shows up and sits next to us. This isn't even his home church and I was surprised to see him there. After the service the kids were talking to him and my son said WS wanted to talk to me. He asked me what we were doing and if we wanted to all have lunch together. I said no and that the kids could call him when we got home later.

His whole family was around on Sunday and no one spoke to me about any family plans for the day. We usually spend all holidays together. I told WS that since I didn't hear from any of them and since I don't have any family here I was going to celebrate Easter w/ a friend's family.

After church I drove back home to get something and my WS's car was parked in my driveway. He has a key and he let himself in. So I went to my friend's to pick her up. About an hour later, I came back home to get what I originally wanted and he was still there. I went in and asked him what he was doing and he gave some excuse. It did not go well at all from there! I told him that it was very difficult for me emotionally to have him coming and going the way that he is and I asked him if he wanted to live in the house. He said yes(w/ the family). I told him he could have the house if he wanted and to give the kids and I a little time to find a condo or something to live in. It upsets me very much that he just comes and goes and that I have no privacy. I will never be able to recover ANY feelings if I have to see him like this. We are both too angry and he hasn't softened at all. I asked him for the key back and that he not come over.

Then today when my daughter was talking to him she told him that we were going to Lowe's to look at getting paint and carpet for her room. He made her put me on the phone and told me that he would appreciate it if I would discuss these things w/ him first and that I should not charge anything. He has all the money in a different account that he has w/ only his name on it. It is earmarked for just this kind of thing as we refinanced the house to do some repairs. I have no access to this and my checking and savings only has the bare bones in it because he likes to keep it that way. I told him that that was fine and that a judge could dictate how much money will be necessary for me to have to run my household.

I'm telling you, I have never been angrier than in this past week. I was reading other posts and saw that at about 6 months the anger can really come out. Can someone explain why this is? It's been about 6 months and it has surprised me just how angry I have become now.

mtthrrbrd,
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ok, cyber sisters it is!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ljkm3,
reread mtthrrbrd's thread. Let us know when you read Dr Dobson's book Love must be tough. It is a good one.

About your anger and the 6 month mark.....well it is quite common. If you get a chance look up Redhat's sig line and click on the thread about the 5 stages of grieving. Anger is one of those stages. The ones who gave me that info were very helpful. I too felt great anger yet I was not allowed to express it. The roller coaster of emotions were allowed for the WS & OP but not for the BS. It was not fair but eventually I was able to share my feelings.

In the intermin though it was hard to hold it back. I am the kind that does not like to take out my anger on just anyone. Nope, I am quite focused and like to put it where it is due. In this case, the fog made that quite impossible, so I had to learn to channel my anger in a productive manner. That require refocusing my anger, andrenaline and thoughts into something worth all that energy.

I learned to post here at MB, help others, dove into my work, concentrated on my child, helped with in-law problems, took a walk via the family court, met with a lawyer, did research on divorce/separation, made changes around the house, kept a journal and even started a new business. The business idea got shot down quickly due to a conflict of interests with my current job but I learned a lot.

That journal really helped me release my anger and also became a gauge for me to see where I was and how I had improved or backslided. I learned to adjust my thinking and found that my priorities then my boundaries changed. I learned at this time that I could not control my H even if it was for his good. I learned to let go and move towards plan B. That brought great relief to me and eventually the WS decided to come home.

Can the BS make the WS come home? Nope. But the BS can make the environment a welcome one. If the WS shows hestiation, that is quite normal. When mine told me he was afraid to come back for fear (dumb fear) that the M would revert back, I at first tried to convince him otherwise. When that did not work I found it easier to agree with him and even told him that I was also was afraid he would get 'foggier' and make me scared. What an eye opener for him. See he never thought himself as dangerous. But if anyone would see a WS in action, dangerous and weird are very common traits.

Hope this info helps.
take care,
L.

Hey Orchid, I went back and read Redhat's stuff...very helpful and interesting. I also in that process read your posts and what you went through. I'm so glad I was able to read that. Girl, you suffered so much! It's also good to see that you walked through it and are better on the other side. This was very important for me to see and I appreciate that.

I have Dr. Dobson's book and in fact I have been going over it again. I'll get there. You'll see. Someday I'll be able to help others like you all have helped me.

I have a question that is kind of disturbing me. FIL came over today and we were talking about WS. FIL said that when he ahd a discussion w/ WS, WS brought up AGAIN the fact that I think he has a child in Cuba. BUT this time FIL said that WS mentioned that I think that he has a daughter. I NEVER said anything other than is there a possible child!!!! What do you think of this? Am I overreacting? I tried to look into seeing any recent registered births down there and there are a few possible ways to find out but the stress of all this is unbearable! What do you make of this?