Not a thought I really want to delve into but lately I have been struggling.

I wonder can you still love someone who strayed but not be able to forgive them?

My wife clings to the belief that as long as I have one once of love for her then there is hope.

Yet I know I have more than one once but also know that I am having more and more difficulty dealing with the affair...its length and nature in pariticular.

My sister warned Sandi early on that I had always seen things in black and white and perhaps my sister knows me too well.

Is the ability to forgive tied into how much you love somebody? Or if something goes against your very moral fiber does it become impossible to forgive someone even if you love them deeply?

Stunned,

I have heard it said, and I will say this poorly, that "forgiveness is giving up the right to hurt someone who has hurt you deeply."

It doesn't mean forgetting, it doesn't even mean trust, it is something a bit more subtle. I think the definition above is something for you to consider.

I have been reading your story and I know your W's betrayal of you was pretty complete AND THAT WAS BEFORE HER AFFAIR. She betrayed you by not telling you her issues and problems. She failed to trust you. THEN SHE HAD A 2 1/2 YEAR AFFAIR. While treating you and the children like house help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Can you forgive this, I think you can and will have to no matter what happens to the marriage. Will you forget, NEVER. Can you develop trust? perhaps.

I think first and foremost you need to decide two things independently.

1. What does forgiveness mean to YOU?

2. Is there a part of you that wants this marriage, whether or not you can forgive?

Then I think you will be able to chip away at this.

I would ask you a few other things while I have you hear <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> and i have time. If you removed what the last 17 years have been, and you knew nothing about the affair (I know big if's), is she treating you well now? Is she being the W you would want (even if it wasn't her) if you remarried?

What would a new wife do that she is not doing right now?

My point is that you will have to deal with the past, your children, your W's betrayal of you, no matter what you decide. SHe will be in your life one way or another for the rest of your life because you two share children.

It seems to me if you love her, and she is being someone you always envisioned she or some other woman could be, you really need to give this a go and let time and patience heal this. If she ever gives you the slightest reason to doubt her love, her honesty, her fidelity, then you can and should file immediately and leave.

What I am thinking and suggesting you consider,is that you are in a no lose situation:

you do love her.

You do like how she is acting toward you.

You do know the past and so does she, therefor you can end this when ever you want. No need to threaten, no need to yell, you simply walk out.

However, by trying this you MIGHT get the marriage you always dreamed of, you give your children more time to grow up and leave before something might happen, and you give yourself time.

YOu see I don't see forgiveness as a compromise. This stuff is really up your ally, it is black and white. SHe has cheated, she wants to make amends, you still love her, you share children, and you can leave anytime. Finally, forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. It is for you and your peace of mind. So where have you compromised? Where is this not a black and white issue? If you didn't love her, if you didn't like her (you really do, just not what she has done), then it is black and white; you leave.

But, clearly it isn't the case. So my vote is you stay and work on the definition of forgiveness above. See how this happens and works for you. Don't make any major decisions for a year, meanwhile ENJOY all she has to offer. Respect that she is offering it to you, and then see how things go.

I will tell you something else that IS black and white. If you read here it is plain as the nose on your face that YOU CANNOT RECOVER FROM THIS ON THE TIME SCALE YOU ARE WORKING ON. THis is a fact and it is black and white. It isn't happening and it won't happen on this time scale. A year minimum maybe, Harley suggests as much as two years.

But, the past is past, that is also black and white. THe future needs to be determined by living it for awhile.

Stunned, there is no revenge, no act of leaving, no anger, no amount of pain, that will undo what is done. That is a fact. You and your W know this. So while I understand your anger, please know that it is a secondary reaction to some other primary feelings typically: fear, pain, etc.

So I do think this situation is black and white: it takes time, it takes dealing with the pain, and it is really all up to you. Leaving her won't "teach" her a thing. It will simply hurt her, your children and you, if you do as you say have some love for her.

So, try out what she is offering to you Stunned. See if it is an act of kindness, contrition, and love. If it is, then you are a very lucky man Stunned. THe pain will fade but not completely go away, but you may have on your hands every man's dream: a wife who thinks he is her hero and loves you for who you really are: a black and white type of guy.

So things to think about Stunned. But I suggest you think about them for a year and then reevaluate. No need to take any lies, or abuse, but I don't think that is what you are getting now.

So calm down, breath deep, and let her actions and time tell you what you need to do. It will become obvious to you when it is time. Give it the time.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So calm down, breath deep, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">okay I got the brown paper bag thing going will let you know if it helps.

Thanks Just Learning.

Big family events like Easter Service and then the afternoon egg hunts are sort of tough because I tend to think.....last Easter she was involved with him.

Do that alot lately like when I see photos of the kids at certain ages I tend to date them pre-affair, during affair and after the affair. I just feel like if even I didn't mean enough to make her snap out of it then that's fine but what about the kids?

I don't want my life being controlled like this. I hate loving her one minute and feeling a sick sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach the very next moment.

I guess only time will tell.

Stunned,

Guess what? Neither you nor the kids could get her out of this until she was ready. I don't know how much denial she is in, but consider this: last Easter she was more focussed on the affair than you or the kids,and clearly God. She is the one that will face triggers far worse than yours as she comes out of this.

You are very normal from everything thing I have read here. The triggers you are going through are also normal for this time of recovery. They will diminish with time and as you get to redue events. For examle next Easter, you will remember what the kids did this Easter, and there won't be an affair.

I know this is rough on you, and I know you are thinking why now after all of the years, but Stunned you have better reasons that most here: your W was mentally ill for all practical purposes and until she got help for this what you got was all there was to give.

Notice one thing though, she didn't leave you for OM. She knew he was wrong. She knew she was wrong for what she did.

I remember being confused by one of your first posts where the counselor told you this wasn't your fault. It seemed that she had been talking with your W before and knew what you were dealing with in your marriage. Was this the case? Had your W sought help before that meeting? It seems so from your post.

You see the timeline for this is important, both in your recovery and in the events that have led you here. You are not at the 6 month point yet, where usually the anger really comes out. It seems you are ahead of the curve in that respect. That is good.

Just remember this very famous quote " Hate is not the opposite of love, indifference is." You are definitely not INDIFFERENT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hang in there Stunned.

God Bless,

JL

Just she had not gone to counseling but had set aside over $300 for counseling and was planning on breaking things off during the Christmas Holiday...the OM couldn't contact her or come by her office during this time period so if she didn't contact him he was out in the cold.

Two days after early discovery in which I recorded her leaving a message to the OM and then later on talking to herself in her car we went to our first session. When we walked in she looked at Sandi then looked at me. Asked what was wrong my wife responded in a soft voice all the time looking at the floor. She stated at that time she had just gotten too close to OM as a friend but not PA. And then she stated that she had intimacy problems with me over the years that helped drive us apart.

Seconds after Sandi had finished speaking the therapist turned to me and said "I know this may seem hard to believe at this moment but THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU.

She then turned back to my wife and told she had been abused as a child.

Over roughly 90 days the level of her abuse (much of what was repressed) and the level of her involvement with the OM came out. Part because Sandi wanted to let go of the abuse she had suffered. Another part because I was pretty bulldoggish in investigating what was going on with the other man. Final part thru the skill of our therapist.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The 6 month point is when the anger really comes out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Man-O-man I hope I don't get any rougher on her than I have recently because the 4 month point has been pretty ugly. Maybe I am 2 months ahead of the curve....I sure hope so for her sake.

PS Certain songs really stick out to me:

Phil Vasser's "The Rose Bouquet" and Colin Raye's "Tired Of Loving This Way" really stick out.

During her affair played them alot along with Brooks and Dunns "Long Goodbye". I guess deep down I sensed things were wrong long before I got run over by the truck called reality....sigh.

My wife once said I wish men had to go thru childbirth just once. Said it was the most painfull thing physically she had ever experienced.

Sandi if you are reading this childbirth is not the most painful thing you can experience....and its over in 9 months... <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ April 21, 2003, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: crazyride ]</small>

SD: One year minimum, maybe, but not for a 2-1/2 year affair. Think 2 years +. I'm not trying to depress you. That is reality.

Re: Anger. Anger can be a great tool for you to work on yourself with. As JL says, it is caused by hurt, fear, frustration, or embarassment. Every time you get angry, look inward and find out which of those is at play. Once you have calmed down, you can talk to your W about the underlying emotions, IF you think doing so will be helpful for the two of you. Directing your anger towards others is almost always destructive, and I only say "almost" because so few things in human relations are 100% that it is a habit for me to use that qualifier.

I like JL's definition of forgiveness, and it agrees with that of Smedes in "The Art of Forgiving: When You Need to Forgive and Don't Know How", an excellent book which was very helpful to me. Smedes separates forgiveness from reconciliation, which is also helpful both conceptually and practically. I recommend the book to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stunned-dad:
<strong>[QUOTE]I don't want my life being controlled like this. I hate loving her one minute and feeling a sick sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach the very next moment.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt that way quite often; mostly, I didn't like who I was that I would allow myself to feel that way, that I felt I was compromising my own integrity by staying with someone who had behaved in opposition to everything I believed in. I could simply not comprehend what I was doing in this marriage when I was so certain I would leave him if he ever betrayed me (again).

And yet, I did stay. I did live through it; I guess I'm still living through it. The last two months have been stupendous, incredible, loving, wonderful months. And I am amazed at how when I am in the middle of this feeling, I can hardly remember the pain. And when I am in the middle of the pain, I can't see that it will be any other way.

And I HATE the fact that time and hard work are required. But, they are. It's been one of the advantages of this board - to be able to come here during the dark days and read that some people have it much worse, and some people are feeling exactly what I am, and some people have come through to the other side.